was Jaime ever really an 'evil' person (so is it really a redemption arc)

[mcb]

I honestly think a lot of people confuse having a motive to murder someone as morality. Because a character internally rationalises their choice it's ok.

Pretty much this. As if "evil" was just another word for "random".

[Maester Farwynd]

I honestly think a lot of people confuse having a motive to murder someone as morality. Because a character internally rationalises their choice it's ok. Villains twirl their moustaches and think "boy ain't I a nasty guy who does evil things!".

Oh, Jaime had a reason to throw Bran to his death? Not evil then.

Good point in distinguishing a motive from the act itself, but in terms of Jaime's murdering Aerys, I believe the end justified the means.

[ElizaMartell]

Oh, and BTW, unless you want this site to die a stagnant death, these threads are needed. Just because you have seen and discussed this before doesn't mean that all fans have. Remember that this is a fan site, not just your site with only threads that you have never seen before. Simple solution for you is to stay out of threads that do not interest you instead criticizing.

Yes because we need another thread to proclaim how heroic Jamie is and how he's more righteous than Baelor the Blessed.

You sure told me. :dunno:

[Where Boars Glow]

Yes because we need another thread to proclaim how heroic Jamie is and how he's more righteous than Baelor the Blessed.

You sure told me. :dunno:

Can we really be sure Balor the Blessed was that rightous?

[Lion of Judah]

Not sure about anyone else but I found that almost as soon as Jaime became a POV character I liked him much much better. But here's a question, is he really in the middle of a redemption arc?

To truly need redeeming he would have had to have done some pretty evil things in the first place, and though he's done bad things, his reasoning behind it kind of removes from the evilness. Take his 3 most 'evil' deeds.

1. Killing Aerys - yes he swore to protect him and all that but really, Aerys was horrible and clearly insane. And at the time he was demanding Jaime to bring him his father's head, so it is kind of understandable that Jaime killed him.

2. Pushing Bran out of the window - he does say that he regrets doing it, and in his own twisted way he was doing it of love for Cersei.

3. Setting his men on Ned - well if someone was threatening your brother you'd probably want to hurt them too.

All in all I have my doubts about if Jaime needs redeeming at all. Thoughts?

You tell me man. Is this evil?

[LeoSuperstar]

Yes because we need another thread to proclaim how heroic Jamie is and how he's more righteous than Baelor the Blessed.

You sure told me. :dunno:

Baelor the Blessed was a nutjob and a bad example to use.

[Nudu]

Can we really be sure Balor the Blessed was that rightous?

I think he was just speaking Westerosi. I can hear Tyrion using a sentence like this.

[Littlefinger of the Hand]

He was evil as hell. He killed the mad king who had sworn to protect. He already had killed the pyromancer so KL was safe. He f****s his sister. He threw Bran from the window, he searched to kill Arya..... and the list goes on forever. Losing his good hand only taught him humility. Anyway he was already weak, useless and helpless. All he could do is to try to be a good guy. And it is not an excuse that Cersei was draging him from his d!***k. Even a suicide bomber in a school bus has nobler motives that jaime.

[ElizaMartell]

I think he was just speaking Westerosi. I can hear Tyrion using a sentence like this.

I am a she but at its nice to see the humour isn't lost on everyone.

[Makes No Sansa]

The truth is, the Lannisters are set up for us to see them as the bad guys, so the first time we read A Game of Thrones we hate Jaime. But come to think about it, he does what he thinks it's the best for his house (such as settling his men on Ned) and for himself, and that creates a conflict with the Starks who, on the other hand, we are supposed to root for from the beginning.

[The Manhood-Eating Goat]

The truth is, the Lannisters are set up for us to see them as the bad guys, so the first time we read A Game of Thrones we hate Jaime. But come to think about it, he does what he thinks it's the best for his house (such as settling his men on Ned) and for himself, and that creates a conflict with the Starks who, on the other hand, we are supposed to root for from the beginning.

Of course, the only reason to think we are "supposed" to see the Lannisters are set up as the bad guys while the Starks are set up to be the good guys is that the Starks don't keep doing evil shit like the Lannisters do.

[Pod The Impaler]

Not sure about anyone else but I found that almost as soon as Jaime became a POV character I liked him much much better. But here's a question, is he really in the middle of a redemption arc?

To truly need redeeming he would have had to have done some pretty evil things in the first place, and though he's done bad things, his reasoning behind it kind of removes from the evilness. Take his 3 most 'evil' deeds.

1. Killing Aerys - yes he swore to protect him and all that but really, Aerys was horrible and clearly insane. And at the time he was demanding Jaime to bring him his father's head, so it is kind of understandable that Jaime killed him.

2. Pushing Bran out of the window - he does say that he regrets doing it, and in his own twisted way he was doing it of love for Cersei.

3. Setting his men on Ned - well if someone was threatening your brother you'd probably want to hurt them too.

All in all I have my doubts about if Jaime needs redeeming at all. Thoughts?

Well, we just had the "Jaime Lannister - guilty or not guilty" thread, which covers this well.

Of these three things, I would say #1 is actually a good thing (despite the oathbreaking). He saved lives by doing so. He should still have gone to the wall as an oathbreaker, but that's the self-sacrifice a true knight has to make sometimes for the greater good.

#2 is clearly evil.

#3 is a rationalized crime. He brother was arrested, not murdered. Did he care to find out why ? Or was it the whole question of who tried to kill Bran would lead back to him and his sister-fucking ? Regardless, attacking Eddard Stark was both dishonourable and rash. He might just have easily saved Tyrion by other means, but he already hated Eddard Stark.

And then, yes, there's the treasonous sister-fucking, the lie to Tyrion about Tysha, and other evils.

Jaime was a messed-up lad, both a paragon and a captive of an evil family, and morally deficient in just about every way.

[Budj]

#1 - Good - upholding one's personal honor does not out weigh the destruction of KL

#2 - Can not argue for this... yes he did it to 'save his family / himself' but really he should just not have been fucking his sister which is what ended up putting the three of them in that high stakes situation in the first place...

#3 - Arguably I think this one demonstrates his transformation after losing his sword hand. The Jaime with his killing hand is a shoot first ask questions later person. He had an identity crisis after losing the hand which we are seeing as a potential 'redemption' arc...Brienne being around was just good timing to remind Jaime of what he wanted to be 'before he became the smiling knight'

[ShowOverBooks]

Yeah, but he did it because he is in love. Oh boy. Isn't that what the man who killed John Lennon said, that he did it because he loves Jodi Foster and wanted to get her attention?

You are confusing Mark Chapman (who killed Lennon) with John Hinckley (who shot Ronald Reagan for Jodie Foster).

I actually like Jaime's charactor now, mostly because he is a smart ass and I enjoy that, but he truly is a low down piece of crap that needs to die or suffer a long lonely life.

Amen.

[Sevumar]

Jaime (as are many of his family members and other members of the nobility) a very self-absorbed, selfish person. When combined with power, that kind of selfishness makes it easy to stop caring about who you hurt and what you destroy in your quest to achieve your own goals. It's one of the things I like about how older versions of D&D dealt with morality. Evil doesn't have to come from a dedication to an ideology of destruction and conquest. The system recognized that evil more commonly arises from the fact that there are people willing hurt or cheat others for their own gain.

It's under this definition that much of what Jaime does can be considered to be evil. I wouldn't necessarily characterize Jaime as an evil person, but near the start of the series, he takes the chance to use his power and influence to harm others several times. He does show signs of growth and the realization that he's done some horrible things later on.

1. Killing Aerys - yes he swore to protect him and all that but really, Aerys was horrible and clearly insane. And at the time he was demanding Jaime to bring him his father's head, so it is kind of understandable that Jaime killed him.

Although killing Aerys before he can be made to answer for his own awful deeds isn't the ideal way of handling the situation, I don't think that can be considered evil. To me, the bigger wrong was how often the men of the Kingsguard stood by while their king murdered people and abused his queen. Westeros offers no checks against the excesses of a king, except by rebelling against him.

At least Jaime eventually experienced an awakening, instead of listening to his superiors continue to tell him that their duty was to defend the king no matter what the monarch did. This demonstrates that Jaime does have some sense of morality and that he is bothered by the kind of brutality Aerys II embodied. However, it is much more difficult for him to see the same tendencies in his own behavior.

2. Pushing Bran out of the window - he does say that he regrets doing it, and in his own twisted way he was doing it of love for Cersei.

I don't buy the "love for Cersei" argument for pushing Bran out of the tower. Jaime was clearly trying to cover his (and Cersei's) crimes by silencing an inadvertent witness. His desire not to get caught outweighed any other concern, and so he deemed Bran's injuries and possible death a price he was willing to pay to keep his secret.

This is one of the most reprehensible things we see Jaime do during the course of the series, and it's one we're right not to let him off the hook for. This is where discussion of "redemption" begins to bother me. I hope we see Jaime continue to develop in positive ways, but it's not in his power to undo the harm he did to Bran that day. There is no way of redeeming that action. The best we can hope for is for Jaime to realize the awfulness of what he did to Bran and to continue his moral/ethical growth.

3. Setting his men on Ned - well if someone was threatening your brother you'd probably want to hurt them too.

Jaime was a Kingsguard and a member of a family with just about the most access to and influence over King Robert. There were other means available to him to make his displeasure known an to attempt to secure Tyrion's release. Instead, he chose to brazenly attack the king's own Hand in the streets of the king's own city. Not only does this show a shocking lack of morality and judgment on the part of Jaime, but it should have led to his dismissal in disgrace from the Kingsguard. This is not the largest of evils, but it is one in my book.

There's no doubt that Jaime has done some awful things, things that by rights should haunt him for all his days. But at the same time, he's also one of the few characters willing to cross the bright white line of absolute Kingsguard obedience in an attempt to prevent the slaughter of hundreds of thousands by the Mad King. Not only was he the only white sword to stand up to the king, but he's also kept the truth about Aerys's intentions to himself all these years.

Throughout the course of the story, Jaime undergoes a slow awakening to the wrongs he and his family have participated in, and while he's not quite a model citizen, he has taken the difficult step of beginning to separate himself from his family. He has finally stopped making excuses for Cersei, although not entirely for the right reasons, but it is progress. He's also taken steps to minimize the brutality of the actions of Lannister allies in the Riverlands and to prevent further bloodshed at Riverrun.

[Foxhound]

Oh, and BTW, unless you want this site to die a stagnant death, these threads are needed. Just because you have seen and discussed this before doesn't mean that all fans have. Remember that this is a fan site, not just your site with only threads that you have never seen before. Simple solution for you is to stay out of threads that do not interest you instead criticizing.

Yeah, we definitely need a new thread on the same subject a week later. People just refuse to use the fucking search function.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Can we really be sure Balor the Blessed was that rightous?

We call him Baelor the Batshit. :D

And yes Jaime is in need of redemption. He even acknowledges his path down the bad road: The boy who idolized Arthur Dayne became the Smiling Knight instead. Sleeping with his twin sister in an extramarital affair (for her), breaking his Kingsguard vows of celibacy, murdering Ned's men, pushing Bran out of the window to save his own ass (Cersei's too of course), saying deliberately awful things to Brienne. He had the chance to explain why he killed Aerys and chose not to, because he preemptively decided no one would buy it, and has spent time since having a chip on his shoulder over it. Yes Jaime was a cynical murdering shit. But the good news is, he recognizes how far he's fallen, he's waking up to the fact that Cersei is manipulating him and is own a spiral of destruction, and he's trying to do right by Brienne and the Stark girls.

[The Monkey]

You are forgetting one thing. In AFFC, it's revealed that he had intended to murder, or at least mutilate, Arya Stark after Nymeria attack Joffrey. Cersei demanded it, and Jaime went along. The Starks found him before the Lannisters though, so this particular act of barbarity didn't happen, but it goes a long way of showing what a rotten person Jaime was. I love his redemption story, but it's insane to claim that he was "just misunderstood" all along.

[Le Cygne]

You are forgetting one thing. In AFFC, it's revealed that he had intended to murder, or at least mutilate, Arya Stark after Nymeria attack Joffrey. Cersei demanded it, and Jaime went along.

He drifted off, he never said what he would have done. You can't hold someone accountable for something they didn't do. You don't know what he would have done. He doesn't know what he would have done. And he didn't do it.

“It was only by chance that Stark’s own men found the girl before me. If I had come on her first . . .”

3. Setting his men on Ned - well if someone was threatening your brother you'd probably want to hurt them too.

He didn't attack or set his men on Ned. "Answer for his crimes"? Tyrion was innocent, and only narrowly escaped death.

“Your brother has been taken at my command, to answer for his crimes,” Ned Stark said...

Jaime pushed his wet hair back with his fingers and wheeled his horse around. When he was beyond the line of swordsmen, he glanced back at his captain. “Tregar, see that no harm comes to Lord Stark.”

“As you say, m’lord.”

“Still … we wouldn’t want him to leave here entirely unchastened, so”—through the night and the rain, he glimpsed the white of Jaime’s smile—“kill his men.”

“No!” Ned Stark screamed, clawing for his sword. Jaime was already cantering off down the street as he heard Wyl shout. Men closed from both sides...

King Robert on the aftermath:

“Abductions on the kingsroad and drunken slaughter in my streets,” the king said. “I will not have it, Ned.”

“Catelyn had good reason for taking the Imp—”

“I said, I will not have it! To hell with her reasons. You will command her to release the dwarf at once, and you will make your peace with Jaime.”...

“Her Grace will have no liking for anything I have to say,” Ned replied. “I am told the Kingslayer has fled the city. Give me leave to bring him back to justice.”

The king swirled the wine in his cup, brooding. He took a swallow. “No,” he said. “I want no more of this. Jaime slew three of your men, and you five of his. Now it ends.”

[Melonica Stormborn]

I'm forgetting something. Did Jaime and Cersei knew about the stabbing attempt on Bran? The stabbing attempt on Bran was the reason why Tyrion was arrested by Cat. But since Joffrey was later discovered by Tyrion to be the true culprit, I don't think Jaime knew, that's why he was so worked up when Tyrion was arrested.

That of course, doesn't excuse him from pushing Bran out of the window, but it explains why he's still eager to attack Ned.