Wheel of Time from a newbie

[HouseLark]

I recently picked up the WoT to see what the fuss is about. I've read bits and pieces about the series so I had a vague idea of what the story was before I started without knowing any of the details or getting spoiled.

Anyway, I'm on Book Eight (PoD) and so far it's been pretty good. It's not wonderful literature (too many stylistic tics) but then I don't expect that from sci-fi or fantasy books, but the story is pretty compelling and most of the characters are interesting enough to become invested in.

My question is, when does the series really start to drag? I've heard that there are some real low points ahead, some said from LoC onwards but I don't see the problem with that book. CoS could have been much more tightly written but there was enough in it to remain a decent entry in the series. So when can I expect to hit the nadir and when does it start getting better (if at all)?

[Emo Jon Snow]

I actually liked books 7&8, but Crossroads of Twilight was plain awful, and I hate saying that in advance, you may like it. I also just started the series 2 years ago, which I think plays a huge factor. If you wait for a book for 3 years and it doesn't deliver a lot of advancement in the plot or some of the main characters are completely missing for the entire book (this happens a lot with Matt and Perrin if you haven't noticed already) you're going to be disappointed. Jordan being overly descriptive about everything doesn't really help either.

If you are enjoying it, then don't worry, because I really liked 7&8 which a lot of people didn't. by book 11 things get back on track and when Sanderson takes over then things really start to move.

[cseresz.reborn]

In short: the best epic fantasy - imo, imo, imo

The Eye of the World - Introduction Part I

The Great Hunt - Introduction Part II

The Dragon Reborn - Introduction Part III (RJ's best book)

The real meat:

The Shadow Rising

The Fires of Heaven (my fav)

Lord of Chaos (the story is complete with this book)

+ (for the fans only!)

A Crown of Swords - Appendix A

The Path of Daggers - Appendix B

Winter's Heart - Appendix C

Crossroads of Twilight* - Appendix D (not bad at all)

Knife of Dreams - Appendix E

+ index/fan fiction:

The Gathering Storm

Towers of Midnight

A Memory of Light

*

Robert Jordan is an unmitigated genius. His brilliance and depth of knowledge in the literary field are virtually unsurpassed. There have been a lot of complaints on this site but, seriously, ask yourself how many of you 1-star reviewers could spend a full 36 consecutive pages giving a detailed description of a single dress. It's not an easy task. And then there are the bosoms - exposed bosoms, covered bosoms, heaving bosoms, sweaty bosoms, small, large, light, dark - the list is really endless. The man is truly a bosom authority and should be lauded for such incredible work here. And let's not forget the tea. There's weak tea, strong tea, hot tea, cold tea, plain tea, spiced tea, good tea, bad tea, bland tea, and it doesn't end there. A lesser author may opt for shortcuts but not Mr. Jordan. We get full accountings of the size, color, and consistency of the various tea leaves, their country/county/city/town/garden of origin, the soil color and optimal temperature conditions for growing each type of tea leaf, the family histories of their growers, ancestral histories of all the people that have ever tasted tea, as well as all of the insects that feed off said tea leaves before they can be harvested and thereby threaten the all important tea supply throughout the world. Very exciting stuff, people. Whoever doesn't like this book obviously lacks the mental capacity to process such complex information and should stick to more low-brow forms of entertainment where "stuff happens". My God, as if stuff happening (also known as plot progression in more educated circles) is important to story telling. Wake up, people, it's not all about action.

[Maithanet]

The pace of the series slowed down some starting in books 5-7, although these books are still fairly well liked. The pacing problems were at their worst in books 8-10, which feature long stretches covering secondary and tertiary characters while many of the main characters are missing completely.

If you are on book 8 and haven't noticed a problem then perhaps the series just really agrees with you, and you don't mind wandering around in Jordan's world. But in terms of the "worst" of it, I would say the first half of book 9 and all of book 10. Fortunately, book 10 is relatively short (as WoT books go), and book 11 is much better. Books 12-14 were written by Brandon Sanderson using Robert Jordan's notes, and while Sanderson's writing has its own problems, it does move the story along at an acceptable level, so I doubt the pacing will bother you too much after book 10.

[Poobah]

In retrospect I find my feelings about the series are vastly different to how I initially felt. And I think the same goes for lots of people. Many were incredibly scathing about book 10 and it's often regarded as the worst book in the series, but that's partly 'cause they'd been waiting for it. I still think it's pretty meh but it has points in it that I like too. After that it's mostly uphill. Knife of Dreams is a significant improvement, and The Gathering Storm is very very tight.

Towers of Midnight kinda suffers badly from how tight TGS is - it has lots of timeline and pacing issues, because half the plotlines were ignored in TGS to allow it to come to a major, satisfying and incredibly significant conclusion. The problem with that then is that TOM jumps back a long way to catch up the other plotlines and if you aren't careful you miss the context of what's going on elsewhere at the same time (specifically with Rand), and also knowing about the significant event at the end of TGS some other struggles feel rather weak, even though technically they're happening before and alongside the events of TGS. Despite it having so much stuff in it I'm inclined to say that TOM is one of the worst books for those reasons.

[HouseLark]

Thanks for the replies. Maithanet probably has the right of it, the series is just up my alley, or at least it is at the minute. I expected the pacing to drop off given how many books I knew were in the series and some of it was just over-exposition e.g. the first few chapters of CoS could have been condensed into one.

I'm steering clear of WoT forums until I get to the final book to avoid spoilers so I'd also be interested to know what the general consensus is on the Sanderson books in the series. Is the style of writing jarringly different from Jordan? And most importantly, are they considered to be good or worthy or do most think of them as "fan fiction" as cseresz.reborn suggests? (BTW, I like that quote about the bosoms. I hadn't noticed that in particular but there is one book where stockings apparently become essential items to describe)

[fionwe1987]

In retrospect I find my feelings about the series are vastly different to how I initially felt. And I think the same goes for lots of people. Many were incredibly scathing about book 10 and it's often regarded as the worst book in the series, but that's partly 'cause they'd been waiting for it. I still think it's pretty meh but it has points in it that I like too. After that it's mostly uphill. Knife of Dreams is a significant improvement, and The Gathering Storm is very very tight.

Towers of Midnight kinda suffers badly from how tight TGS is - it has lots of timeline and pacing issues, because half the plotlines were ignored in TGS to allow it to come to a major, satisfying and incredibly significant conclusion. The problem with that then is that TOM jumps back a long way to catch up the other plotlines and if you aren't careful you miss the context of what's going on elsewhere at the same time (specifically with Rand), and also knowing about the significant event at the end of TGS some other struggles feel rather weak, even though technically they're happening before and alongside the events of TGS. Despite it having so much stuff in it I'm inclined to say that TOM is one of the worst books for those reasons.

Yes. Jordan was very very correct in saying these three had to be one book. It could be one huge book, or one split into two volumes, but it had to be one book. There are thematic elements in ToM that just don't get exposed because they happen separately from tGS. And there are themes stretching from tGS to aMoL that just don't work with them separate as novel. You can see it, and appreciate it, but you keep wishing they were all one book.

[Which Tyler]

That's very interesting on the Sanderson books.

I haven't read them yet; it sounds a little like it might be better to read TOM before TGS - would that actually make any sense? or does TOM go further into the future too?

[Maithanet]

That's very interesting on the Sanderson books.

I haven't read them yet; it sounds a little like it might be better to read TOM before TGS - would that actually make any sense? or does TOM go further into the future too?

I wouldn't do that. The Rand scenes in TOM will make no sense if you don't read TGS first.

[Isgrimner]

I'm a fan of WOT, have been since Christmas of 1990 and I've dealt with all the waits between books except for The Great Hunt which had just come out when I got TEotW. I would say The Shadow Rising was my favorite book in the series. I am probably one of the few who liked Crossroads of Twilight, hey Mat was back after a hiatus and that was good enough for me. My least favorite book in the series was probably Path of Daggers. I think way too much time was given to a specific Elayne plotline (trying to avoid spoilers). I have a few more issues with WOT, but overall I am a fan and I recommend the series. I will be devouring A Memory of Light next week. I would take off work to read it if I didn't have some items scheduled next week that I can't miss.

[Poobah]

That's very interesting on the Sanderson books.

I haven't read them yet; it sounds a little like it might be better to read TOM before TGS - would that actually make any sense? or does TOM go further into the future too?

TOM goes further into the future too... Chapter 1 of TOM takes place after the final chapter of TGS... and so do several other chapters featuring the characters who had their stories advanced in TGS, though the majority of the novel takes place in the same time period as TGS... hence the issues.

Roughly speaking... IIRC the TGS and TOM prologues happen around the same time and don't have any crossover... Any character who has a chapter in TGS and also has a chapter in TOM will have those chapters in chronological order (EG. Matt, Rand, and Egwene's chapters in TOM are all Post-TGS)... All of Perrin's chapters in TOM Prior to chapter 30 happen during TGS and prior to it's final chapter... TOM chapter 30 (Perrin PoV) Happens in synch with the final chapter of TGS and all chapters in TOM which follow this are post TGS timeline. ***I THINK***

I'm steering clear of WoT forums until I get to the final book to avoid spoilers so I'd also be interested to know what the general consensus is on the Sanderson books in the series. Is the style of writing jarringly different from Jordan? And most importantly, are they considered to be good or worthy or do most think of them as "fan fiction" as cseresz.reborn suggests? (BTW, I like that quote about the bosoms. I hadn't noticed that in particular but there is one book where stockings apparently become essential items to describe)

I'm emphatically not a Sanderson fan, but I think they are a good conclusion to the series and should be read. They're written well enough given the circumstances under which Sanderson was forced to operate, though I think that he could have done a better job given more time to work with the material.

[nickg]

I just recently started the series also. Well, I initially read The Eye of the World a few years ago, just after high school. I did enjoy it, but got sidetracked before moving on to book 2 and never felt compelled to continue.

I was pretty much convinced from all that I had read and heard that I would not like the series, so when I moved on to The Great Hunt I focused on everything I didnt like and the whole experience was negative.

Giving it another go now and while I still have some of the same nitpicks ( some of the writing and characters ) the books have been enjoyable. Especially The Dragon Reborn. It was great, and might have hooked me on WoT.

[fionwe1987]

That's very interesting on the Sanderson books.

I haven't read them yet; it sounds a little like it might be better to read TOM before TGS - would that actually make any sense? or does TOM go further into the future too?

Don't even think about it. There are many timeline jumps. Despite some characters moving far ahead in tGS, they come back almost immediately in ToM to set up the finale. Then we jump back to character that were more or less absent in tGS. Then we move back to the current time, then back again, and so on. No way to understand all that without tGS.

[Garett Hornwood]

Since I'm currently doing my first WoT read through as well, I thought I would give my two cents.

So far the only two books of the series, I've had a "problems" with have been PoD and CoT though for different reasons. I really didn't get into the flow of PoD not because of Jordan's writing, but because of real life interfering the first five days I started reading it and that unfortunately shaped how I responded to the rest of the book. The first quarter-to-third of CoT was good, then from there to around the three-quarters mark got me frustrated for the first time in the series, while the last quarter of the book was an improvement leading to KoD.

Here's my order of preference of the Jordan-only books:

TSR, TDR, tEotW, TGH, tFoH, CoS, KoD, LoC, WH, PoD, CoT

Thanks to those giving the heads up when it comes to the storyarcs and timeline issues in TGS and TOM, its good to know that since in about a week I'll be starting TGS. It'll so be my first exposure to Sanderson's writing, so I really don't know what to expect after getting use to Jordan's writing for the last eleven months.

[Which Tyler]

Cheers guys, I'll read them as written then, and just put up with the jumping around and spoiled suspense.

[andrew_]

Considering how often these books are mentioned on these forums I reckon i'll read them while I wait for tWoW.

[HouseLark]

Considering how often these books are mentioned on these forums I reckon i'll read them while I wait for tWoW.

That's exactly why I took them up, I thought they would fill a gap but I've ended up burning through them so I'll need to find something else as well!

I've got to say that the references to timeline jumps and "the future" are a little worrying. My pet hate in sci-fi and fantasy is time travel, it just reeks of cheap storytelling and is usually just a poor plot device. I don't mind the whole wheel of time device because ages were temporally segmented and (as far as I know) characters weren't jumping back and forth between them. I may have read it wrong and my worries might be misplaced, I hope they are.

[Apathete]

You've misunderstood what people are saying.

The timeline jumps are because the chapter are not written in chronological order, so one character looks like he is in two places at once. As far as I am aware there is no actual time travelling.

[Poobah]

Right.

TGS deals primarily with 2 major characters and their arcs, which makes for a very tight focused book. But it propels their personal timelines (as in the dates their chapters take place on) far ahead of some of the other characters, and both those 2 characters and the rest of the cast get chapters in TOM.

[Antonius Pius]

HouseLark,

if you're this far in, I'd say keep it up. I lost interest after book 5 or 6 (can't even remember which). Still, there are many fans, and Jordan definitely had a plan. If you enjoy it, keep it up.

I do think it's an important point that you've not been waiting for new releases with the fans of the first hour (I wasn't either). If you wait so long and nothing really happens in the new book, you would be annoyed (IMO a main factor in the criticism for AFFC).