Eddard Starks relation to House Dayne.

[Flaming Heart]

So I'm not sure if this theory makes sense or not,but here it goes- The Heir to Starfall is Edric Dayne who is also called "Ned".Now this is kinda weird to me because Eddard Stark who is also called "Ned" is the person who killed Arthur Dyane and was possibly the reason for Ashara's Suicide.What I'm trying to say is that shouldn't Edrics father naturally hate lord stark,why would he name his own son after someone he hates ? It doesn't make a lot of sense.Now this might not mean anything,but I wanted to put it out there.A second thing I noticed is that Wylla who is widely rumored to be Jon's Mother still served at Starfall after Ashara Died.In fact she was Edrics Milk Mother,which has to be an honor.This is also weird because Ashara was in love with Edarrad,and died because she didn't get the love back.So if Dyane's really believe that Wylla was Eddards mother shouldn't she be partially blamed for what happened to Ashara.If that's the case then why let wylla be the milk mother to the heir of starfall ?

The Idea that I'm trying to point at is that Edrics father,who had been Lord when Eddard came to Starfall,knew about the whole Jon snow parentage secret.That's why he respected Eddard and helped him create a cover story by adding Wylla into the mix.Also maybe Allriya Dyane knows about this.This might be important because if she knows that Jon Snow is the Son of Rhaegar,She could inform Danerys about it when she lands on Dorne.Also,Many believe that Dawn is actually Lightbringer...So Allriya might somehow play a role in sending it too Jon.

On a totally unrelated note,Shouldn't Jon Snow actually be Jon Sand if he was born in Dorne :P

[The Faceless Bard]

The only thing I want to mention about this is that since his nickname is "ned" that could have been affixed to him from any number of people while he was growing up, although it would show a positive image of Eddard. Secondly, The lack of information regarding the Daynes has lead me to believe that we are in for a lot of reveals regarding their family in the coming book ....

[Zupoleon]

First off, Ashara being in love with Eddard is merely speculation. In fact, the likelihood and clues that exist point to her love affair being with Ned's brother Brandon. To get back to you're point about the possibility of Edric's father and Allyria Dayne knowing about Jon's pedigree, it's highly unlikely. Ned refused to share the knowledge with anyone, even his wife, at the expense of his own marriage. He could not risk anyone knowing. Not much of a point in promising your sister to keep a secret ("promise me, Ned") only to go running your mouth in the first town you hit afterwards...

[corbon]

First off, Ashara being in love with Eddard is merely speculation. In fact, the likelihood and clues that exist point to her love affair being with Ned's brother Brandon. To get back to you're point about the possibility of Edric's father and Allyria Dayne knowing about Jon's pedigree, it's highly unlikely. Ned refused to share the knowledge with anyone, even his wife, at the expense of his own marriage. He could not risk anyone knowing. Not much of a point in promising your sister to keep a secret ("promise me, Ned") only to go running your mouth in the first town you hit afterwards...

If the Daynes were secretly supporting ToJ before Ned got there, through Arthur's connection, then Lord Dayne might know.

Allyria though is probably a very small child, or even unborn, at this time. Ned Daynes tells us she's been betrothed for years (6 IIRC) to Beric Dondarion, who is in his early-mid 20s. So either she is already an 'old maid' in her late 20s or even 30s, in which case why has the marraige been delayed so long, or she is 'young' (explains the long betrothal).

The events around ToJ are approaching 20 years ago...

[Zupoleon]

If the Daynes were secretly supporting ToJ before Ned got there, through Arthur's connection, then Lord Dayne might know.

True. My personal feeling however is that the extent of the Dayne support (outside of Arthur and possibly Ashara) was getting Wylla to be a midwife / wet nurse to Lyanna.

[corbon]

True. My personal feeling however is that the extent of the Dayne support (outside of Arthur and possibly Ashara) was getting Wylla to be a midwife / wet nurse to Lyanna.

Can you rule it out though?

I don't think Ashara, a disgraced young woman with no personal authority, or Arthur, sworn to the crown over his family and with no personal authority over Dayne holdings or vassals, could effectively support people living at ToJ for up to a year without their older brother, the Lord, giving at least tacit support.

Food has to come from somewhere, someone has to be cooking, cleaning bedclothes etc. Having at a minimum 3-5 people living in one location for probably a year isn't going to work just on a temporary 'camping out under a roof' basis.

[Zupoleon]

Can you rule it out though?

I don't think Ashara, a disgraced young woman with no personal authority, or Arthur, sworn to the crown over his family and with no personal authority over Dayne holdings or vassals, could effectively support people living at ToJ for up to a year without their older brother, the Lord, giving at least tacit support.

Food has to come from somewhere, someone has to be cooking, cleaning bedclothes etc. Having at a minimum 3-5 people living in one location for probably a year isn't going to work just on a temporary 'camping out under a roof' basis.

No, it probably can't be ruled out for sure. I'd argue that Wylla, in addition to her primary reason for being there could also take care of the cooking, cleaning, etc... But the food issue is a fair point. I imagine if they were getting food and supplies from Starfall, then Lord Dayne knew where it was going.

Lord Dayne's support doesn't necessarily mean he was privy to what was going on there though. Just my opinion, but I believe the extent of his knowledge would have been that R & L were holed up there, at best. Nothing about Lyanna's pregnancy or baby Jon after that...

[PrinceHenryris]

Where is it said that Ned Killed Arthur?

it's just as likely that Howland Reed or one of Ned's other companions killed the Sword of Morning. All we know is that Howland saved Ned from Arthur.

[The Faceless Bard]

Prince Henryris

I believe that in a Catelyn chapter of Game of Thrones it is stated was that common rumor around Winterfell was that Ned had defeated Dayne in Single Combat.

That is the only reference I have ever seen aside from the constant "Howland saved Ned from Arthur" statements.

Flimsy, since in that same rumor it is mentioned that Ashara Dayne was Eddard's Mistress.

[PrinceHenryris]

Prince Henryris

I believe that in a Catelyn chapter of Game of Thrones it is stated was that common rumor around Winterfell was that Ned had defeated Dayne in Single Combat.

That is the only reference I have ever seen aside from the constant "Howland saved Ned from Arthur" statements.

Flimsy, since in that same rumor it is mentioned that Ashara Dayne was Eddard's Mistress.

You mean other than Bran remembering his father saying, "The finest knight I ever saw was Ser Arthur Dayne, who would have killed me but for Howland Reed"?

[The Faceless Bard]

Yeah im with you ... it seems that the second hand stories from Ned always mention Howland saving him from Arthur. I was just trying to clarify that the only reference I ever saw about Ned kill Arthur Dayne was in the rumor mill at Winterfell upon Ned's return (and this remembered by a disheveled Catelyn who has proven Unreliable at times) so yeah ... I dont think there is any distinct evidence as to what occurred there.

[jon stark I]

If Ashara and Ned was in love that would explain why he returned to Starfall after TOJ.All of Westeros was kind of understand Ned back then he had a sister captured by prince and the KG noone but Lyanna and Rheagar knew the truth about how it happened.Did they run away or did Rheagar captured and raped her?It was all a big mistery.Jon and Robb are at the same age IIRC.Noone thinks about it but to be a wet nurse you have to have milk and that means you have to give birth right?Then what if it was Wylla who gave birth to a stillborn and Jon was Ashara's son then it makes sense why Dayne family loves Ned.Even after his marriage and death of Ashara, Ned still protected her name.And he returned Arthurs blade to his family and gave him and the others a decent burial.Ned killed KG to rescue his sister and that is honorable but what arthur did too was honorable keeping his vows no matter what.As we know Asharas sister told that Ned and Ashara were deeply in love.

By the way i support that Rheagar stole Lyanna posts even he did stole her KG had to protect them as we know they didn't broke ther vows to save queen of aerys(ı don't remember her name rght now)Why would they try to save Lyanna ?

[corbon]

You mean other than Bran remembering his father saying, "The finest knight I ever saw was Ser Arthur Dayne, who would have killed me but for Howland Reed"?

Yes, other than that, some of the Winterfell soldiers 'whisper' about their young lord killing the great Arthur Dayne in single combat.

But that's it although others around Westeros could easily believe the same thing..

The source of said rumour is easily discernable. Ned returned Dawn to Starfall (public knowledge), therefore he must have killed Arthur (false logic, but good for morale).

If Ashara and Ned was in love that would explain why he returned to Starfall after TOJ

His going to Starfall is already explained by returning the sword Dawn.

An even better reason, though almost no one knows of it, is that Starfall is both the safest place for Jon to first appear (Daynes being Targaryen loyalists and all,and probably already supporting ToJ) and also the fastest and safest way to get him back to the North - Starfall would be the nearest port to ToJ,

[Ice Turtle]

I see it as very likely that former lord Dayne knew about Jon. There is something very strange about knowing and publicly claiming that you are a milk brother of a bastard. Dorne is different in this, but still, why even bother to talk about it. It seems that it become an important family story.

The reason why Allyria isn't married is most probably because she is either too young (below 15) or she is the acting lady of Starfall and they are waiting for Edric to reach 16 years. I would guess that she is almost surely younger than Beric. Either way I doubt she knows truth about Eddard/Ashara or Jon.

Edric wouldn't be called Ned and be shy about talking to Eddard if there were any bad feelings between families.

[brut]

This business with returning Dawn is bothering me. Dawn is not transferred by inheritance, but given to the finest swordsman. If Arthur Dayne were the one, then he would have obtained it through his merit in combat. And if Eddard would defeat Arthur, wouldn't he be proclaimed as a better swordsman, and thus in accordance to the House Dayne rule, wouldn't now Eddard own Dawn? Yes, taking it back to Starfall was noble, but I have a tingling suspicion that Daynes gave it back to Ned. Now, him being the honorable man, and knowing that he only defeated Arthur because of Howland, Ned does not carry the Dawn. Ned may have agreed to keep the Dawn until such times when he can return it to the Daynes, or pass it to a better swordsman himself... So, while indeed the Dawn could be safely stored at Starfall, it may also happen to be in Winterfell. Edric Dayne may well know this as the family history...

[corbon]

I see it as very likely that former lord Dayne knew about Jon. There is something very strange about knowing and publicly claiming that you are a milk brother of a bastard. Dorne is different in this, but still, why even bother to talk about it.

Its not 'publically claiming it', as such, but two kids making a connection.

This business with returning Dawn is bothering me. Dawn is not transferred by inheritance, but given to the finest swordsman. If Arthur Dayne were the one, then he would have obtained it through his merit in combat. And if Eddard would defeat Arthur, wouldn't he be proclaimed as a better swordsman, and thus in accordance to the House Dayne rule, wouldn't now Eddard own Dawn? Yes, taking it back to Starfall was noble, but I have a tingling suspicion that Daynes gave it back to Ned. Now, him being the honorable man, and knowing that he only defeated Arthur because of Howland, Ned does not carry the Dawn. Ned may have agreed to keep the Dawn until such times when he can return it to the Daynes, or pass it to a better swordsman himself... So, while indeed the Dawn could be safely stored at Starfall, it may also happen to be in Winterfell. Edric Dayne may well know this as the family history...

No, Dawn is not transfered to the finest swordsman and it never goes outside House Dayne. It is held always by a Dayne and only by a Dayne deemed 'worthy' of it by the Daynes - which is not necessarily judged on swordsmanship, but honour, achievement, respect or anything else, we don't know for sure.

PS GRRM has said Ned is merely an average swordsman.

[FittleLinger]

No, Dawn is not transfered to the finest swordsman and it never goes outside House Dayne. It is held always by a Dayne and only by a Dayne deemed 'worthy' of it by the Daynes - which is not necessarily judged on swordsmanship, but honour, achievement, respect or anything else, we don't know for sure.

PS GRRM has said Ned is merely an average swordsman.

Yep. "competent" was the word he used, which might mean slightly above average, but your point still stands. It's not much of a stretch to say Arthur was maybe the best swordsman in the history of Westeros.

And yes, only a Dayne can be Sword of the Morning, and from what I understand, there's not necessarily a new one in each generation, or a new one after the previous one dies, so it's even a bigger honor and recognition for the bearer.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

I think Ned's visit to Starfall was two-fold. One, he merely wanted to return Dawn to it's rightful owners, as he had great respect and admiration for the Sword of the Morning. Not to mention it helped to calm down the talks for raising Dorne for Viserys.

Secondly, the Dayne's have features very similar to the Targaryens. I think its no mistake that Ashara Dayne is a popular candidate for Jon's mother among Westeros. If Jon had silver gold streaks in his hair, silver/gold hair or purple/violet eyes, Ned would have had a lot of explaining to do. Not to mention it is known that Rhaegar took off with Lyanna and presumedly raped her (I do not believe it was rape). Two and two could have been put together.

[Zupoleon]

Yep. "competent" was the word he used, which might mean slightly above average, but your point still stands. It's not much of a stretch to say Arthur was maybe the best swordsman in the history of Westeros.

And yes, only a Dayne can be Sword of the Morning, and from what I understand, there's not necessarily a new one in each generation, or a new one after the previous one dies, so it's even a bigger honor and recognition for the bearer.

Absolutely. The exclusivity of the station tells me there is something more to Dawn that goes beyond it's already unique characteristics...

[alienarea]

Returning Dawn after ToJ can as well serve as a cover story for Ned to go there. Because he was in love with Ashara, or because he was in love with Wylla, or because he needed to pick up Jon Snow ...