747 replies to this topic

[salihzzz]

Uchiha Madara, on 08 January 2013 - 07:57 PM, said:

So Aurane Waters found One Piece?

you sir just won my internets

[SeanF]

NotSoSilentSister, on 12 January 2013 - 02:55 PM, said:

As to "Why surrender your bed.." etc: Because he's apparently a good lay. Because he's the one indulgence she allows herself; the one thing capable of taking her mind of the burden of being the mother of dragons, slayer of lies, etc, etc. Because he's a distraction and there's value in that alone. In the past, the Targs have not always been well served by monomanic obsessions with their pet causes. Sometimes there can be something quite sanity-preserving in a distraction.

Finally, your assumption that sleeping with someone means "surrendering your deceny" is by no means shared by everybody; so that's fairly irrelvant from Dany's perspective.

Catherine the Great did herself no harm with her love affairs, and her ex-lovers were all very supportive of her rule.  But, I do think there is something a bit undignified about Dany's infatuation with Daario, which is obvious to all her court, and no doubt causes a good deal of sniggering among her Mereneese enemies.   Perhaps it's because I find Daario such a sleazy dislikeable character.

Edited by SeanF, 13 January 2013 - 11:35 AM.

[The Sunset King]

Arianne has a consistent theme of trying to preempt any potential sidelining of her own desired destiny.  Her original resentment of Quentyn based upon the belief that he would act as Doran's heir is a prime example of this.  Her speculation on the subject of why Viserys died/why Daenerys did not stop the death reveals Arianne as projecting the fear of marginalization onto Daenerys and her motives as well.  Arianne appears to believe that a serious queen, or someone to whom queenship is within grasping range, naturally seeks to eliminate all rivals, impediments, or potential sources of subjugation.

Quentyn has already perished and thus she need not be concerned about his role in Doran's plan.  However, as the foreshadowing about the DWD indicates, Daenerys still poses a considerable threat to her dream to rule Westeros.  In some ways she is like Margaery, especially the HBO series's version.

Edited by The Sunset King, 13 January 2013 - 12:31 PM.

[NotSoSilentSister]

SeanF, on 13 January 2013 - 11:32 AM, said:

Catherine the Great did herself no harm with her love affairs, and her ex-lovers were all very supportive of her rule.  But, I do think there is something a bit undignified about Dany's infatuation with Daario, which is obvious to all her court, and no doubt causes a good deal of sniggering among her Mereneese enemies.   Perhaps it's because I find Daario such a sleazy dislikeable character.

Catherine the Great got a bad rap too; otherwise we wouldn't have those stories about her doing it with a horse. But ultimately it couldn't touch her. If you are a powerful woman there's always going to be a good deal of sniggering among your enemies. They see you rolin they hatin. Haters to the left, etc. etc.

Don't get wrong - as a reader, I find Daario fairly obnoxious too. But I totally get it from Dany's perspective. Some things you just have to get out of your system. The sooner the better. So far, Dany has been quite a bit less deluded about Daario than Tyrion was about Shae. That may well change in the next installment, but still, Dany has the excuse of being a teenager... At any rate, this will be something Tyrion and Dany can bond over.

[Jon AS]

History of Westeros, on 13 January 2013 - 07:47 AM, said:

When considering this, one must keep in mind that Arianne likely has a reputation as a seductress.

Does she? I'm sure she has a reputation, but I'm not convinced it's as someone who uses sex to get her way (we as the reader know the details about Arys Oakheart, most people in Dorne don't). I think she is viewed more like her late uncle and his daughters in this respect.

History of Westeros, on 13 January 2013 - 07:47 AM, said:

And of course, in general, he's not going to tell anyone who doesn't need to know.  I don't see any vital reasons for Prince Doran to include Lord Yronwood in this plot.

Yronwood is in the best position to offer support to Arianne, one way or the other, should it be required.

History of Westeros, on 13 January 2013 - 07:47 AM, said:

"Hotah paid more attention to those that who did not drink: Ser Daemon Sand, Lord Tremond Gargalen, the Fowler Twins, Dagos Manwoody, the Ullers of the Hellholt, the Wyls of the Boneway.  If there is trouble, it could start with one of them.  Dorne was an angry and divided land, and Prince Doran's hold on it was not as firm as it might be.  Many of his own lords thought him weak and would have welcomed open war with the Lannisters and the boy king on the Iron Throne."

The thing is, what they are angry about is Doran publicly making nice with the Lannisters. Once that facade falls away they will fall in line. They'll probably jump at the chance, even.

Incidentally, funny that Daemon is on that list, given that some seem to think of him as Doran's proxy in Arianne's party.

History of Westeros, on 13 January 2013 - 07:47 AM, said:

(interestingly, there are no Yronwoods mentioned at this feast, which probably doesn't mean much, but I think it at least bears mention).

I'm guessing they are well and truly busy, and several prominent members of the house are in fact out of the country.

The Sunset King, on 13 January 2013 - 12:24 PM, said:

Arianne has a consistent theme of trying to preempt any potential sidelining of her own desired destiny.  Her original resentment of Quentyn based upon the belief that he would act as Doran's heir is a prime example of this.  Her speculation on the subject of why Viserys died/why Daenerys did not stop the death reveals Arianne as projecting the fear of marginalization onto Daenerys and her motives as well.  Arianne appears to believe that a serious queen, or someone to whom queenship is within grasping range, naturally seeks to eliminate all rivals, impediments, or potential sources of subjugation.

Quentyn has already perished and thus she need not be concerned about his role in Doran's plan.  However, as the foreshadowing about the DWD indicates, Daenerys still poses a considerable threat to her dream to rule Westeros.  In some ways she is like Margaery, especially the HBO series's version.

I've yet to see a clear indication that Arianne has the ambition to be queen. She worked towards becoming Princess of Dorne because she felt justifiably wronged by her father and brother, and there's some lingering resentment there, but so far she's not expressed a desire for the throne, unlike, for example, Cersei or Dany.

NotSoSilentSister, on 13 January 2013 - 12:37 PM, said:

So far, Dany has been quite a bit less deluded about Daario than Tyrion was about Shae. That may well change in the next installment, but still, Dany has the excuse of being a teenager... At any rate, this will be something Tyrion and Dany can bond over.

Tyrion: Did I ever tell you about that time I convinced myself that a whore I'd hired was in love with me? Well, long story short, I ended up murdering her using a piece of my father's jewelry.

[NotSoSilentSister]

Jon AS, on 13 January 2013 - 01:23 PM, said:

Tyrion: Did I ever tell you about that time I convinced myself that a whore I'd hired was in love with me? Well, long story short, I ended up murdering her using a piece of my father's jewelry.

Well, they might not discuss it in graphic detail, but at the very least it should give Tyrion some empathy. Sellswords and sex workers can have quite a bit in common and so do the people who genuinely fall for them.

I suspect that Dany won't show Daario all that much mercy either when she discovers his treason.

Edited by NotSoSilentSister, 13 January 2013 - 01:55 PM.

[History of Westeros]

Jon AS, on 13 January 2013 - 01:23 PM, said:

Does she? I'm sure she has a reputation, but I'm not convinced it's as someone who uses sex to get her way (we as the reader know the details about Arys Oakheart, most people in Dorne don't). I think she is viewed more like her late uncle and his daughters in this respect.

I suppose I should say "might" have that rep.  Most of the lords probably know or suspect that she seduced Arys Oakheart.  To be fair, I doubt he knows about her fling with Darkstar, and that probably wasn't seduction anyway... mutual lust seems more likely.  It's a powerful tool in her arsenal though.  She considers seducing Connington, she tries to re-seduce Daemon Sand, she flirted very openly with Balon Swann at the feast where the skull was presented.  It's not unlikely that her reputation is known, but certainly not definite.

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Yronwood is in the best position to offer support to Arianne, one way or the other, should it be required.

He's in the best position to help AND he's in the best position to hurt.  Such is the nature of being the 2nd strongest house in a region.  This is why the overly cautious Doran would possibly prefer Lord Yronwood not to know.  I fully admit that our complete lack of screen time for Anders Yronwood makes my position largely guesswork.  For all I know, Anders is a content man happy to do whatever Doran wants.  If he's anything like his predecessors though, Doran will have a little reason for concern.

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The thing is, what they are angry about is Doran publicly making nice with the Lannisters. Once that facade falls away they will fall in line. They'll probably jump at the chance, even.

I half agree.  Certainly if Doran goes to war with the Lannisters, most will fall in line.  But we're not there yet.  I am talking about the now, and in the now, as that quote indicates, "Doran's rule is not as secure as it might be".  This is a description of the political scene in Dorne, not an expression of upset over the toast.  The reaction to the toast is a symptom of the problem, not the cause.

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Incidentally, funny that Daemon is on that list, given that some seem to think of him as Doran's proxy in Arianne's party.

Agree, Daemon's presence is interesting for several reasons.  Not only did he refuse to drink, but prior to that he was imprisoned, along with the Sand Snakes.  He's possibly a little bitter over that.

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I'm guessing they are well and truly busy, and several prominent members of the house are in fact out of the country.

By several, you mean "2".   The heir to Yronwood is a woman, thus she is unlikely to be leading armies (especially given her father is the Lord, and he is certainly leading an army).  She's the one I would've suspected to be there.  Obviously her lack of appearance is not reason enough to be conspiratorial, but it is interesting.

Quote

I've yet to see a clear indication that Arianne has the ambition to be queen. She worked towards becoming Princess of Dorne because she felt justifiably wronged by her father and brother, and there's some lingering resentment there, but so far she's not expressed a desire for the throne, unlike, for example, Cersei or Dany.

True enough.  But ambitious people rarely stop trying to achieve more power, and it seems like she's fairly ambitious.  Trying to crown Myrcella was a seriously ballsy move.  Stupid, yes.  But very ambitious, too.

[Marakesh]

Is there a reason that Doran places an onyx dragon in Arianne's hand? I mean in story reason, cause it seems so odd. Even with using onyx instead of black it just stands out so much like GRRM is screaming "FORESHADOWING AEGON REVEAL HERE!"  I was 90% on Aegon being fake and 50/50 on the whole Black Targ thing, but I don't think there's any denying it now. Plus "everywhere the dragons dance, people die". It could be Dany's dragons (plural) but in context its much more likely two Targs fighting each other, or for the iron throne.

[Tini]

Are the game pieces always black and red? If Doran pulled that Onyx dragon from a set consisting of black an white pieces, giving her a black dragon instead of the white one does not signify anything.

[GoldenVale]

Fire Eater, on 11 January 2013 - 01:02 AM, said:

I think there will, otherwise why would Dany fight in a second Dance of Dragons if she thinks he is Rhaegar's son, the rightful heir to the Iron Throne?

Does this "Dance of Dragons" have to be an actual "fight"? I think people are too quick to jump at the chance to see another situation like the Blackfyre wars. For all we know the DOD might not be an actual war. It could be the various people invested in either claimant (i.e Varys/Illyrio and JonCon/GC) doing what they need to rack up support for their respective investment and the fallout from that.


Also I think people are a little too quick to judge Arianne for not reading the books offered to her. Strictly speaking her mission is basically a fact finding mission strictly related to figuring out JonCon and "Aegon". Reading about defending against dragons at this point would be pretty much premature and I  think the criticism of her choice stems from the fact that most people already believe that Dorne will end up fighting Dany. She wasn't sent to fight a wa she was sent to gather information for Doran.

Also I'm not so sure that Done will get that biased a story about what happened to Quent. While Gerris has pretty much made it clear that he blames Dany when he's debriefed  I'm sure Doran would be smart enough to figure out the truth for himself. And everyone seems to forget about the much more level headed Archibald Yronwood is also coming back and might prove to be useful in setting things straight. Plus the fact that Selmy saved them from execution in the first place might have some clout with Doran.

[Jon AS]

History of Westeros, on 13 January 2013 - 03:07 PM, said:

Most of the lords probably know or suspect that she seduced Arys Oakheart.

What makes you think that? They may wonder, as Doran did, how she managed to convince Ser Arys to go along with her plan, but that's about it. They would probably find promises of lands and riches much more likely.
I mean, commiting high treason for love? Who does that?

History of Westeros, on 13 January 2013 - 03:07 PM, said:

She considers seducing Connington, she tries to re-seduce Daemon Sand, she flirted very openly with Balon Swann at the feast where the skull was presented.  It's not unlikely that her reputation is known, but certainly not definite.

Most of that is what she thinks about, seeing her as flirtatious or even promiscuous is still a bit removed from thinking of her as someone who uses sex as a tool.

I also wouldn't qulify an attempt that amounted to "Wanna have sex?" "No." "Oh, well, that's a pity." as seduction, but maybe that's just me.

History of Westeros, on 13 January 2013 - 03:07 PM, said:

For all I know, Anders is a content man happy to do whatever Doran wants.  If he's anything like his predecessors though, Doran will have a little reason for concern.

Considering Quentyn's adventuring party was made up mostly of Yronwood men, including Anders' son, he seems pretty supportive of Doran, especially as this was quite the gamble. But yeah, our knowledge of Dorne is still quite limited. Cleary GRRM needs to expand the series a little...

History of Westeros, on 13 January 2013 - 03:07 PM, said:

I half agree.  Certainly if Doran goes to war with the Lannisters, most will fall in line.  But we're not there yet.  I am talking about the now, and in the now, as that quote indicates, "Doran's rule is not as secure as it might be".  This is a description of the political scene in Dorne, not an expression of upset over the toast.  The reaction to the toast is a symptom of the problem, not the cause.

Doran's physical condition probably forces him to put up with a higher level of discontent than Tywin Lannister could stand (and on some level it probably creates discontent on its own, given Westerosi macho warrior culture), but so long as people are willing to follow him when it counts he can't be in that much trouble. His grip on his country could be firmer, but he's pretty far from having to deal with open rebellion (and the historically likeliest house for that is firmly in his camp for the moment).
Plus at least he knows whom he needs to keep an eye on.

History of Westeros, on 13 January 2013 - 03:07 PM, said:

By several, you mean "2".   The heir to Yronwood is a woman, thus she is unlikely to be leading armies (especially given her father is the Lord, and he is certainly leading an army).  She's the one I would've suspected to be there.  Obviously her lack of appearance is not reason enough to be conspiratorial, but it is interesting.

Hey, by the standard of Westerosi noble families (excluding the Freys and Lannisters) two is a big number. The Yronwoods at least have a member from a junior branch in the mix there, most of the houses we see are one or two untimely deaths away from extinction.
Can it be assumed that Ynis Yronwood accompanied her husband to Sunspear in ADWD and just wasn't mentioned?

History of Westeros, on 13 January 2013 - 03:07 PM, said:

True enough.  But ambitious people rarely stop trying to achieve more power, and it seems like she's fairly ambitious.  Trying to crown Myrcella was a seriously ballsy move.  Stupid, yes.  But very ambitious, too.

I'd call it desperate and, as Illyrio and Tyrion agree, doomed to fail.

Marakesh, on 13 January 2013 - 04:44 PM, said:

Is there a reason that Doran places an onyx dragon in Arianne's hand? I mean in story reason, cause it seems so odd. Even with using onyx instead of black it just stands out so much like GRRM is screaming "FORESHADOWING AEGON REVEAL HERE!"

Is the other colour of the set in question red? I only remember a cyvasse set that followed the basic chess black/white colour scheme.

[Alia of the knife]

How possible is it that Doran does know about Jons existance?

Arianne goes in and just sticks to the plan of confirm and verify, for some reason does know how to identify Aegon, perhaps a sign that Doran gave her, and realizes he is fake, and sends word to Doran.

By this time, he will probably have heard of Quentyns death and not inclined to back Dany, but now realizes he has no obligations to "Aegon" since he is not his Sisters child, pretty much realizing Aegon was indeed murdered, Plan C is now Jon.

He has no fear of treason if Dorne is ever confronted by Dany because both Aegon and Jon would, (provided he's legitimate), come before Dany in the succession anyway.

As much as Doran might hate the idea of turning to the son of the woman who took Rhaegar from his Sister, there is no Viserys, no Dany and Quentyn, and now, no Aegon.
And this is now bigger than any personal grudges.

I would have thought the Dance of Dragons would have included Jon as well, and he may need someone with a little more clout than a Cranngoman who hasn't been seen in years anyway to confirm his idenity.
It may also give more credibility to Jons idenity because Doran would be seen as the last person to confirm Jons heritage, and there could still be an alliance with Arianne, or even Elia Sand.

Given the Daynes involvement in Harrenhal, and then the TOJ, Jon could be the secret that Darkstar knows about.

Edited by Alia of the knife, 13 January 2013 - 10:25 PM.

[amazingoopah]

awesome chapter... can't wait for the inevitable scene where a naked Arianne is waiting in Jon Connington's bedchamber   to seduce him!!!

also, that dream... the magic is coming back into the world!! wonder what other vision/magical powers will pop up

[Zupoleon]

Alia of the knife, on 13 January 2013 - 06:59 PM, said:

Given the Daynes involvement in Harrenhal, and then the TOJ, Jon could be the secret that Darkstar knows about.

Well that kind of info might qualify a person as being the most dangerous man in Dorne...

[Marakesh]

Is the other colour of the set in question red? I only remember a cyvasse set that followed the basic chess black/white colour scheme.

Yes, but why put a cyvasse piece in her hand? That she's responsible to catch a dragon/Targ? Still odd since they all seem so doubtful of Aegon's legitimacy at that point. It makes sense to foreshadow he's a Blackfyre to us, the reader, but clearly Doran doesn't know that.

[gougef]

Alia of the knife, on 13 January 2013 - 06:59 PM, said:

Given the Daynes involvement in Harrenhal, and then the TOJ, Jon could be the secret that Darkstar knows about.

You may have hit on something there.

[Alia of the knife]

gougef, on 13 January 2013 - 10:23 PM, said:

You may have hit on something there.

I get one right every now and then.

[Lord Damian]

Zupoleon, on 13 January 2013 - 09:46 PM, said:

Well that kind of info might qualify a person as being the most dangerous man in Dorne...

the Question is, since the TO Joy is in Dorne, how many people know or suspect that Rheagar had a child by Lyanna Stark or that she was pregnant or possibly married to?

[WillWork4NinjaPowers]

Quote

Ran:
"Someone should tell Arianne that, since she has great relationships with quite a few women, from her cousins the Sand Snakes to her friend Spotted Sylva.

I don't think it's a mistake on Arianne's part. She was leaving almost immediately, and her job isn't to deal with dragons (if they ever come); that's for Quentyn and her father right now.

And really, just what can you learn from reading some random book about the history of the Dornish resistance to Aegon and his sisters? I'm pretty sure that the Dornish tactics used are basically enshrined by the singers, and everyone more or less knows the basics."

At the very least, her complete disinterest in them was a red flag, for me. It wasn't just stuff on fighting the dragons, it was stuff that could be useful if she needed to hide...not from literal dragons, but Aegon, etc, on her journey. Tyrion would have probably asked to take the books with him, if he didn't have the time to stay and read.

[Carter209]

Just read the chapter and some thoughts:

1. I cannot wait for Arianne and co. to get to Storm's End, not only for her interactions with JonCon and YG, but also for her to interact with Sylva, who should be there along with her husband after the GC took the keep of the Estermonts. Hopefully we find out who snitched to Doran.

2. So, Waters set himself up as a pirate king, eh? When you have the best ships money can buy, why the hell not. Plus, if he's an agent of Varys, we could potentially see those dromonds on the Blackwater. (My crackpot though is that his will be the fleet to confront Manderly's ships. No real evidence to support this, other than the fact that his is the biggest fleet on the eastern side of the continent to counter the Northern Navy if/when it goes south.)

3. If Arianne marries YG, then look for Daemon Sand to become a member of his KG. If he's as good as advertised, being a KG would be a hell of an advancement for a bastard.

4. Dance 2.0 is on it's way, and boy will it be bloody.

5. Darkstar is gonna kill YG with Dawn. I'm calling it right now. He's being set up to be a BAMF, even though he was a ginormous douche the last time we saw him, yet with the reputation he's got, ranging from Oberyn's negative beliefs about him, to Arianne believing him to be the most dangerous man in Dorne, something has to materialize here. We'll get a POV of his showdown with Swann, Hotah, and Obara, yet I believe he'll kill all 3 of them, displaying his martial prowess.

Edited by Carter209, 14 January 2013 - 12:55 AM.