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Old Gods, cold gods and Starks: a Heretic re-read


nanother

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Crackpot, but kind of makes sense: they killed Ser Waymar simply because he challenged them.

The uneasy feeling Will and Gared had was meant to keep them away. If not for Royce, it would have been enough to scare the other two away. When they didn't turn back, not only that, but Royce stood on the ridge 'outlined nobly against the stars for all to see', they took that as a challenge and got worried, because they assumed Royce knew what he was doing.

So a team went there to investigate. The leader provoked Ser Waymar to draw his sword, so they all could take a good look at it. After determining that it's not dragonglass, or dragonsteel (whatever that is) and not Ice, they relaxed and let the leader deal with him, mocking him for being such an idiot.

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I agree. The cold winds were a sort of warning - but they stayed and went after the Wildlings that the Others may have seen as "theirs" as Black Crow implies... they encroached on their territory? And drew blades first - Royce, that is...

Yeah, I think the clash between Royce and the other two establishes (yet another) ongoing issue in the books, often occurring along the lowborn-highborn line. Royce is right in wanting to find out what happened, and I agree (with him) that what can be explained by facts and logic, should be. However, he refuses to acknowledge the limits of his understanding, and to accept the Will and Gared's instincts as a valid form of knowledge. Those two are also right to want to be careful, but their attitude of 'we did what we had to, if things don't make sense it's not our fault, now let's save our skin', while understandable, endangers the whole Watch in the long run by obscuring important information. What the Watch needs is balance - someone who values knowledge enough to take risks to gain it, but has the sense to know when to quit...

Mostly, all this indicates serious leadership issues at the NW. Gared 'has seen lordlings come and go', so this is not an isolated incident. You'd think they'd try to come up with ways to beat the hubris out of these lordlings...

Oh, I agree, a balance between a purely rational and purely intuitive approach, a happy medium, is practically perfect...

I think Gared didn't say anything to Royce to stop him from going ahead with his plan because he knew that Royce would ridicule him about saying nonsense with an obligatory mention of grumkins and snarks to boot... he just knew it wouldn't do any good to sway Royce and that talk of the Others would only make him sound crazy, imo.

Whatever the two rangers would have told Royce, his hubris would get them in the same deadly situation, time and time again...

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Two observations:

"Come no farther,” the lordling warned. His voice cracked like a boy’s. He threw the long sable cloak back over his shoulders, to free his arms for battle, and took his sword in both hands. The wind had stopped. It was very cold.

The movement of the White Walkers not only brings the cold, but also the wind. When they stopped, the wind stopped. That they wear stealth armor is proof that they do not wish to be detected. They want to sneak up on their prey. The cold wind is a human's only warning.

The Other said something in a language that Will did not know; his voice was like the cracking of ice on a winter lake, and the words were mocking.

Ser Waymar Royce found his fury. “For Robert!” he shouted, and he came up snarling, lifting the frost-covered longsword with both hands and swinging it around in a flat sidearm slash with all his weight behind it. The Other’s parry was almost lazy.

When the blades touched, the steel shattered.

...

The watchers moved forward together, as if some signal had been given. Swords rose and fell, all in a deathly silence. It was cold butchery. The pale blades sliced through ringmail as if it were silk. Will closed his eyes. Far beneath him, he heard their voices and laughter sharp as icicles.

I'm wondering if the words that the White Walker spoke was a magical incantation that increased the coldness of his blade, because afterward when their swords crossed Waymar's blade snapped from the cold, just like the Last Hero. The "signal" then was that the group knew what was going to happen at the end of the spell. They were expecting Waymar's sword to break.

Speaking of the Last Hero...since his blade also snapped should we assume that he fought with the White Walkers? Has anyone ever considered that perhaps the White Walkers actually killed the Last Hero, but then the Children brought him back to life?

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...

I'm wondering if the words that the White Walker spoke was a magical incantation that increased the coldness of his blade, because afterward when their swords crossed Waymar's blade snapped from the cold, just like the Last Hero. The "signal" then was that the group knew what was going to happen at the end of the spell. They were expecting Waymar's sword to break.

Hmm, interesting...I always assumed that Will was correct about the intent of their words, but seeing how alien they are, those words could have meant anything in theory. Another theory was that drawing blood was necessary...that could work together with a spell...

ETA: ever since someone posted about them being predators sharing the blood, I have this weird idea that their swords need to be fed blood...it doesn't really make sense but can't get it out of my head :dunno:

Also, yet another thing was different: before, Royce was on the defensive, parrying the Other's blows...now he attacked with fury, putting his whole weight into it. Although I can't really see that making a difference.

Speaking of the Last Hero...since his blade also snapped should we assume that he fought with the White Walkers? Has anyone ever considered that perhaps the White Walkers actually killed the Last Hero, but then the Children brought him back to life?

Possibly. That's not how Old Nan tells the story, but we know she isn't 100% right all the time. I wish we knew more about him!

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"All day, Will had felt as though something were watching him, something cold and implacable that loved him not."

All day.

White Walkers don't appear during the day, but can they "watch"?

Where do White Walkers go during the day, and how quickly can they move? Waymar's group was 9 days away from the Wall when the cold wind came down from the north. How did the White Walkers know they were there? Why did they come then and not when Jon was with Quorin in the Skirling Pass?

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...that ties into what I was trying to say about Will and especially Gared: much their knowledge is instinctive, subconcious, and they're OK with that. Based on the experience they accumulated they know something is wrong, but they don't feel the need to put the pieces together. I wonder how many similar events went unreported, or even undiscovered because of that...

I don't think its a matter of "not feeling the need to put the pieces together" because that's exactly what they are doing - correctly. Their problem is articulating that instinctive feeling to their young officer.

One night many many years ago, I had exactly the same experience. There were four of us, not three, in the patrol. Myself, a Cree Indian tracker called Bruce (!), another guy, and a young officer who was being shown the ropes. At first as we moved through the dense woods there was nothing untoward, but suddenly Bruce stopped dead and we both realised we were walking into an ambush. We could see nothing, hear nothing, but instinct told us we were in trouble and so we backed out very slowly and away. The young Rupert had been very firmly told to defer to me and did so, but neither I nor the tracker could explain to him why we knew there was an ambush, and hours later a different patrol walked straight into it.

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"All day, Will had felt as though something were watching him, something cold and implacable that loved him not."

All day.

White Walkers don't appear during the day, but can they "watch"?

Where do White Walkers go during the day, and how quickly can they move? Waymar's group was 9 days away from the Wall when the cold wind came down from the north. How did the White Walkers know they were there? Why did they come then and not when Jon was with Quorin in the Skirling Pass?

I'm not sure that they did. I think its just one of those chance encounters where the different parties just stumbled across each other by accident.

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"All day, Will had felt as though something were watching him, something cold and implacable that loved him not."

All day.

White Walkers don't appear during the day, but can they "watch"?

Tormund says something along those lines in his account of their journey to the Wall. I'll find the quote later.

Where do White Walkers go during the day, and how quickly can they move? Waymar's group was 9 days away from the Wall when the cold wind came down from the north. How did the White Walkers know they were there? Why did they come then and not when Jon was with Quorin in the Skirling Pass?

I think Mance's host was already gathering in the Frosfangs, along the banks of the Milkwater. It makes sense to assume that the wildlings were going that way, and the Others were likely following them. The rangers just happened to make the mistake of going after those same wildlings...

Also, we don't know how far the rangers went on from Craster's Keep...maybe not too far and Craster's Sons like to hang out near daddy's place?

When Jon & co was climbing the Skirling Pass, the Others were preoccupied with the Black Brothers gathering on the Fist - Mance even commented on how they stopped bothering the wildlings.

I don't think its a matter of "not feeling the need to put the pieces together" because that's exactly what they are doing - correctly. Their problem is articulating that instinctive feeling to their young officer.

Yes, that was bad wording on my part. When I said 'put the pieces together' I really meant 'consciously try to form a coherent theory', and I meant it in terms of finding out what's going on. As in your example, you couldn't consciously track down the details, but you knew it was an ambush, Will knew the wildlings were dead and Gared knew it was the cold. And they both knew there's 'something' they don't know, a whole new kind of threat. Maybe the real problem is not that they can't articulate it, but that they're afraid to try. They trust their instincts, but don't trust their officers to take them seriously.

Anyway, Royce did make mistakes, but those were only expected from someone of his age and experience, so it's primarily Mormont's fault for giving Royce the command.

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"All day, Will had felt as though something were watching him, something cold and implacable that loved him not."

All day.

I always think "trees" when reading that part, but the "cold and implacable" part and the rest of the sentence make me think differently. I dunno, the Haunted Forest is a dark place, I think they can manage it by day...

Again, I think Gared knew how Royce would react if he said "Others" - with scorn and ridicule, and that he'd go on with his plan anyway. Also, the fear both Gared and Will feel makes them think "Others", and they think of making a fire and Will brings up his steel, comforted by the iron - but I think they themselves can't comprehend that an Other would truly appear... they react instinctively, a "just in case" kind of reaction, but in their rational mind probably still don't fully believe it. Until it actually shows up, that is...it's those things on the edge of reason.

And Royce, although a green boy, is their commander - this also makes them bite their tongue. The youngster in BC's story wasn't in command, wasn't he? And so we come to the question of Mormont giving a green boy command and nanother says he's to blame. Firstly, I don't think anyone can be blamed, not even Royce - they simply couldn't know that out of all the things beyond the Wall they would run into Others. No one expects the Spanish Inquisition kind of thing... I mean, Mormont knew he was a green boy, but when giving him the command of that ranging, he certainly didn't have Others in mind. If Mormont knew they were on the move again after what, thousands of years, he certainly wouldn't send anyone! :laugh: And secondly, Royce actually had the right of it with the Wall weeping and the weather not being cold enough for the Wildlings to freeze to death, so he had something in that head of his besides showing off, I guess. Not that bad at detective work, CSI and all that... such a misfortune to run into Others out of all things and not listen to more experienced men, when you see they're frightened out of their wits...

Edit - spelling and minor stuff I forgot in the first version

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Yes, they all share the blood :devil:

Even so, otherwise I don't think they behave entirely like predators: predators don't mock the prey, and more important, they don't make their presence known until they must.

Also, what did they want from Waymar? If they wanted blood, they could have had the wildlings the night before. :dunno:

Please don't dismiss predatory behaviour on the assumption that predators "don't mock." The perception of "mocking," as well as laughter and speaking is from Will's POV. It seems that way to Will from his perch in the sentinel. Also, some predators do seem to "mock." Hyenas, for example, well, sound like hyenas with a terrible, "mocking" laughter. Finally, as for the wildings, Gared saw them dead before the sunset. We pick up the story as the sun is going down. As Gared returns with Will and Waymar, to the wilding camp, the sun has set. It is full dark and "a half moon rose." The wildings aren't in the camp now because they have "risen" with the darkness. Once attacked and "dead," like Waymar, they rise up with a "pupil(s) burned blue."

Black Crow, love the recount of your experience. As one who grew up hunting in the woods with my father and brothers and as a Cherokee, you develop a sense of "hypervigilience," a survival instinct that defies articulation. It gives rise to the early American setters criticism of native tribes as being "sneaky." However, it is really an awarness to surroundings, like Will and Gared have developed that require a different method. Not a straight forward, full frontal attack, as Waymar has been taught, but a more subtle movement and sensibility.

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I always think "trees" when reading that part, but the "cold and implacable" part and the rest of the sentence make me think differently. I dunno, the Haunted Forest is a dark place, I think they can manage it by day...

Yes, I have the same reaction.

ETA: also, it brings to mind Qhorin's comment about 'the trees have eyes again'. Could he have meant this feeling of being watched, or specifically Jon's dream with Bran as a tree in it, or something else? Oh well, we can discuss it when we get there, I guess...

As for Mormont being at fault or not, I think the problem goes deeper than just not expecting the Others. Even with only wildlings to worry about...I don't suppose Black Crow's senior officers expected them to run into Others or aliens either, yet they told the new guy to shut up and follow the experienced person. I mean, were the wildlings alive and still around, they could have easily surprised them while Waymar stood there busying himself with mocking Will...

Also, Will thinks that Gared 'saw lordlings come and go'...so how many lordlings had the Watch lost because they failed to teach them to respect those with more experience?

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Please don't dismiss predatory behaviour on the assumption that predators "don't mock."

...

That's a cool detail about the hyenas, thanks. I didn't mean to dismiss predatory behaviour, just having doubts and pointing out that some of the details are a bit odd. They killed those wildlings without drawing blood, but the wanted blood from Royce? Why?

Crackpot: they have some strange ritual, in which they first have to kill someone as a 'cold mist' to be able to take a humanoid shape, and then they have to get blood on their swords to become fully functional :dunno:

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What if the Children's greenseers control the White Walkers? If the White Walkers were a result of the Hammer of Waters, and if they actually killed the Last Hero, perhaps the Children felt regret and resurrected him? Then when Will and Gared felt the watching eyes, cold and implacable, it was the Children watching, and they sent the White Walkers after them.

In Genesis it says that god felt regret after the deluge and promised he would never kill mankind again with a flood. He placed the rainbow in the sky as a reminder of this covenant. Could there be a parallel with the Children? Their greenseers think they are the old gods. Punishing those they deem evil or guilty and offering protection and aid to those they deem righteous.

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Yes, I have the same reaction.

ETA: also, it brings to mind Qhorin's comment about 'the trees have eyes again'. Could he have meant this feeling of being watched, or specifically Jon's dream with Bran as a tree in it, or something else? Oh well, we can discuss it when we get there, I guess...

As for Mormont being at fault or not, I think the problem goes deeper than just not expecting the Others. Even with only wildlings to worry about...I don't suppose Black Crow's senior officers expected them to run into Others or aliens either, yet they told the new guy to shut up and follow the experienced person. I mean, were the wildlings alive and still around, they could have easily surprised them while Waymar stood there busying himself with mocking Will...

Also, Will thinks that Gared 'saw lordlings come and go'...so how many lordlings had the Watch lost because they failed to teach them to respect those with more experience?

Sure, I mean, the Watch is surviving, as Mormont tells Tyrion later on, so matters of grooming good leaders and creating seasoned watchmen (heh) out of green boys seems to have become a secondary matter... unfortunately. It's just that I can relate with almost every character here (not so much with Royce though, but even with him, a little) and Mormont giving the order. He says later on, to Tyrion, he needed more "Sers" in the Watch ( well, for noble families to send their children, actually, to give the Watch the old honorable name back) so he gave Royce the command reluctantly, so the Royces couldn't say that murderers and poachers come before well bread nobles... Mormont saying "no" to Royce would mean disrespect to his family, in a way, so I give some slack to the Old Bear, what can I say... :dunno: The choices are never easy, I guess.

I love the Prologue. It's the contrast of ice and fire in a nut shell, as far as temperament is concerned. Royce's hot tempered, glory-seeking blindness to the advice of seasoned, more experienced and wise rangers. It's like making the decision to throw the ring into the fire - wisdom will throw it away, but desire will keep it...

ETA: the quote, was ninja'd...

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@ Battlekitten

I suppose it's old habits resurfacing under extreme stress...I find it easy to forgive him, considering...

@ Little Wing

Yeh, I suppose no easy decisions for Mormont...yet, he himself strikes me as the same reckless type as Royce. Queer corpses with creepy blue eyes? Let's examine them! Dead men rising and slaying, what, 4-5 Brother? Let's ride out and take care of those Others! Not sure what to make of him :dunno:

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@ Battlekitten

I suppose it's old habits resurfacing under extreme stress...I find it easy to forgive him, considering...

@ Little Wing

Yeh, I suppose no easy decisions for Mormont...yet, he himself strikes me as the same reckless type as Royce. Queer corpses with creepy blue eyes? Let's examine them! Dead men rising and slaying, what, 4-5 Brother? Let's ride out and take care of those Others! Not sure what to make of him :dunno:

I think Mormont is reflective of the problems of the Watch as a whole.They have long forgotten their true purpose.

Waymar and the rangers were sent out to track Wildlings because Wildlings are seen as the true enemy.It's actually understandable since the Others have been asleep for 8,000 years.

He doesn't recognize wights when he sees them.However,he does go on to realize what they're up against before his death.

On this line,"It was very cold."It seems very understated to me,and striking for that reason.Earlier Gared had been blaming the Wildling deaths on the cold,whereas Royce had pointed out the Wall was weeping.

So,could this have been fear Gared was feeling? After all,the physical response to cold and fear can be quite similar, goose-flesh,teeth chattering,etc.

So,perhaps Gared and Will were feeling a primeval fear,until the real cold arrived?And Royce eventually noticed it,"Why is it so cold?".

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redriver - it's the extreme cold the Others bring/brings them. It is the reason the Wildlings died, they froze in their vicinity and as the rangers are about the area, they feel the cold. As the Others close in on them during the chapter, it gets even colder, the wind is mentioned all the time and then the wind stops as the Other finally comes to shape out of the white shadows Will sees just out of the corner of his eye and then the sentence - It was very cold. It's freezing cold when Others are near. That's what killed the sleeping Wildlings. Maybe the Others weren't even intent on killing them - they were just passing by... and the wildlings just happened to be sleeping near. So, that's how it's possible for them to freeze even though the Wall is weeping and the weather is not that cold, I think...

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