Old Gods, cold gods and Starks: a Heretic re-read

[nenya~]

nanother, just wanted to say great summary. I'll need a bit of time to respond to it though :P

[nenya~]

Wind:

Wind whispered through the stable, a cold dead breath on his face, but Jon paid it no mind.

Should put this in the Dany thread. In her dream she's running from an "icy" breath that will cause her death if it catches her.

He recalls Gared's execution and his memory is quite detailed – I'd think the fact that he doesn't ever recall Gared talking about the Others is strong evidence that he there was no such talk.

Ah nice catch on that.

It did not bear thinking about. Pain throbbed, deep in his fingers, as he clutched the reins. Jon put his heels into his horse and broke into a gallop, racing down the kingsroad, as if to outrun his doubts. Jon was not afraid of death, but he did not want to die like that, trussed and bound and beheaded like a common brigand. If he must perish, let it be with a sword in his hand, fighting his father’s killers. He was no true Stark, had never been one … but he could die like one. Let them say that Eddard Stark had fathered four sons, not three.

Boy, you're being thick-headed! After all this thinking you still don't realise where you belong...

Jon also says he's not afraid of death, and the earlier quote he pays no mind to the cold dead breath on his face :P

Good thing at least his wolf has common sense... or else the Old Gods really want Jon alive and at the Wall...

Or it could be Jon subconsciously feeling guilty and not knowing if he's doing the right thing. Ghost acts on this, like he "knew what to do to" when he first met Sam. Or all of the above.

1) But not of the Mormonts, then? I thought most Northern houses had FM blood in them, though perhaps the Starks more than others?

The way LC Mormont speaks sometimes, it seems as if he doesn't even worship the Old Gods, but Maege was praying at the heart tree with Robb at one point in the books. When Cat sees them, she makes mention of "these are the ones who worship the Old Gods" or something like that. Alysane tells Asha they can skinchange into a bear, but that seems more like a joke though. Not really sure about Jorah either.

Mormont's Raven

Here are all the mentions of the raven speaking

His raven was walking back and forth across his shoulders, muttering, “Corn, corn, corn.” The bird shrieked when Jon entered.

Jon’s throat was dry. “You know?”

“Know,” the raven echoed from Mormont’s shoulder. “Know.”

Jon stood tall. He told himself that he would die well; that much he could do, at the least. “I know the penalty for desertion, my lord. I’m not afraid to die.”

“Die!” the raven cried.

Do you think your uncle Benjen was the only ranger we’ve lost this past year?”

“Ben Jen,” the raven squawked, bobbing its head, bits of egg dribbling from its beak. “Ben Jen. Ben Jen.”

“Do you think your brother’s war is more important than ours?” the old man barked. Jon chewed his lip. The raven flapped its wings at him. “War, war, war, war,” it sang.

“Your lord father sent you to us, Jon. Why, who can say?”

“Why? Why? Why?” the raven called.

[Black Crow]

Something I've always found interesting is the way the raven only repeats certain words. Its not simply picking up on the first ofr last word spoken. Its consciously going for the one word in the sentence that has meaning.

[King Tyrion VIII]

Very nice thread :)

[King Tyrion VIII]

So is the reread finished or did you guys just stop for some reason?

[nenya~]

So is the reread finished or did you guys just stop for some reason?

I think nanother and some others who normally posted in here became pretty busy. Participation sort of dwindled. Would love to see this reread resurrected though if others are willing to help out, especially since I'm not too familiar with the heresy theories lately.

[nanother]

Hi, sorry guys, have been away for long and still kinda struggling IRL so not sure I can cope with resuming the re-read... anyone still around at all?

[DrunkSister]

I am very busy ATM, but I suppose I could find the time to reread the chapters and participate if there was somebody else to write summaries. :frown5:

We can wait and resume at some other time, it's not like we are in a rush, no news of Wow and all that. :bawl:

[nanother]

Yeah, well, let's wait and see if anyone else shows up... Glad you're still around!

[nenya~]

I'm still around but I've been busy too. I've just been checking notifications every once in a while of threads I follow to see what's going on in those lol.

[nanother]

There are plans to pick up the re-read project again, moving onto ACoK, but it's going to be difficult. For now, I'm thinking of re-reading Dany's chapters before doing anything with the 'core' POVs. It'd be a more manageable sized project and could take place in the Dany thread.

To give AGoT a closure, here's one final 'summary'. I had some quotes selected from the last Cat chapter, but I never ended up posting them:

Catelyn XI

She found Robb beneath the green canopy of leaves, surrounded by tall redwoods and great old elms, kneeling before the heart tree, a slender weirwood with a face more sad than fierce. His longsword was before him, the point thrust in the earth, his gloved hands clasped around the hilt. Around him others knelt: Greatjon Umber, Rickard Karstark, Maege Mormont, Galbart Glover, and more. Even Tytos Blackwood was among them, the great raven cloak fanned out behind him. These are the ones who keep the old gods, she realized.

Apparently, when Martin wrote Cat I, he wasn't yet aware that there was going to be a weirwood in Riverrun.

It would not do to disturb them at their prayers. The gods must have their due . . . even cruel gods who would take Ned from her, and her lord father as well. So Catelyn waited. The river wind moved through the high branches, and she could see the Wheel Tower to her right, ivy crawling up its side.
^ Quoted for mention of 'wind', FWIW.

Catelyn was thinking of her girls, wondering if she would ever see them again, when the Greatjon lurched to his feet.
“MYLORDS!” he shouted, his voice booming off the rafters. “Here is what I say to these two kings!” He spat. “ Renly Baratheon is nothing to me, nor Stannis neither. Why should they rule over me and mine, from some flowery seat in Highgarden or Dorne? What do they know of the Wall or the wolfswood or the barrows of the First Men? Even their gods are wrong. The Others take the Lannisters too, I’ve had a bellyful of them.” He reached back over his shoulder and drew his immense two-handed greatsword.

The Greatjon, bless his heart, not doing Robb any favours here. "To crown him is to kill him." Anyhow, what is there to know about the Wall, the wolfswood and the barrows? Or are those just empty words, akin to “the North remembers”?

“Why shouldn’t we rule ourselves again? It was the dragons we married, and the dragons are all dead!” He pointed at Robb with the blade. “There sits the only king I mean to bow my knee to, m’lords,” he thundered. “The King in the North!”
And he knelt, and laid his sword at her son’s feet.

“I’ll have peace on those terms,” Lord Karstark said. “They can keep their red castle and their iron chair as well.” He eased his longsword from its scabbard. “The King in the North!” he said, kneeling beside the Greatjon.
Maege Mormont stood. “The King of Winter!” she declared, and laid her spiked mace beside the swords.

At some point there was much speculation about the Mormonts being special in some way, this being one of the passages it was based on. Indeed, why is Maege Mormont calling KoW and why is she the only one? All the shouts after this are for KitN.

[Arya kiddin']

Hmmm. I wrote an extensive theory on Old Gods here. You can check it if you want to.

[DrunkSister]

I'll do a reread of the chapter before posting, expect at least something in the next few days (I am in a terrible rush atm but that much I can do).

[nanother]

Hmmm. I wrote an extensive theory on Old Gods here. You can check it if you want to.

Sure I will, thanks! Might not be very soon though, kinda swamped ATM.

I'll do a reread of the chapter before posting, expect at least something in the next few days (I am in a terrible rush atm but that much I can do).

Take your time, no pressure :) the thread will be here whenever you get around it :)

[Arya kiddin']

Sure I will, thanks! Might not be very soon though, kinda swamped ATM.

Take your time, no pressure :) the thread will be here whenever you get around it :)

Of course, do it whenever you get time. The basis of the theory is that weirwoods are both ice and fire, while traditionally they're believed to be representation of ice alone.

[DrunkSister]

My miniscule contribution:

Ser Edmure Tully was a stocky young man with a shaggy head of auburn hair and a fiery beard.
- huh? totally forgot he had a beard!

“Your grief is mine, Cat,” he said when they broke apart. “When we heard about Lord Eddard... the Lannisters will pay, I swear it, you will have your vengeance.”
“Will that bring Ned back to me?” she said sharply. The wound was still too fresh for softer words. She could not think about Ned now. She would not. It would not do. She had to be strong.
“All that will keep. I must see Father.”
I wonder sometimes, if Catelyn had taken a vengeance approach to politicking, if only on the surface, if the outcome wouldn't have been better:
Hostage situation - ''We need to exchange them because while my daughters are there, we cannot hurt Lannisters while they have them. Afterwards, we can do what we like.'' -> ziiiiiiip they trade Jamie for Sansa

“I shall leave you to talk,” her brother said, kissing their lord father gently on the brow before he withdrew.
I love Edmure.

Ser Marq Piper was with him, and they brought a Darry, Ser Raymun’s son, a lad no older than Bran.
What? I don't remember a kid?

“Lord Stannis has the better claim.”
“Renly is crowned,” said Marq Piper.
Crowning in itself gives legitimacy to claimants? By what tradition? Or is it simply that Stannis might refuse the crown yet?

“So you mean us to declare for Stannis?” asked Edmure.
“I don’t know,” said Robb. “I prayed to know what to do, but the gods did not answer.

LOL
What question did he ask, who should I declare for: Renly or Stannis?
Because the right answer is The price who was promised, his is the song of Ice and Fire. :leaving:

=>

The gods must have their due . . . even cruel gods who would take Ned from her, and her lord father as well. So Catelyn waited. The river wind moved through the high branches...

:tantrum: jonjonjonjonjonjonjon :tantrum:jonjonjonjonjonjonjonjon :tantrum: aw **** it, I quit, said the tree

“Aye,” said Lord Bracken. “Gregor Clegane laid waste to my fields, slaughtered my smallfolk, and left Stone Hedge a smoking ruin. Am I now to bend the knee to the ones who sent him? What have we fought for, if we are to put all back as it was before?”
Lord Blackwood agreed, to Catelyn’s surprise and dismay. “And if we do make peace with King Joffrey, are we not then traitors to King Renly? What if the stag should prevail against the lion, where would that leave us?
*my eyes went screeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeech* What did I just read? They agreed upon something?!

Maege Mormont stood. “The King of Winter!” - yes, this is intriguing.

Caaaaaaaaaaat!

About the wolfswood and the barrows: I don't know if this is the case of 'the North remembers' (yea, no it doesn't) or if GRRM is not telling us what the characters know. In either case, I suspect that anything Greatjon knows is akin to old Nan's tales - very embellished and far removed from the source.

[nenya~]

Thanks for those summaries! I've been on the road the past week and will be busy the next few days, Christmas and all. But I almost have the last Dany chapter done so once xmas is over I'll post it.

For the weirwood in Riverrun, it could just be that Cat was exaggerating about no weirwoods in the south or that there are no wild ones. The only ones we hear of are all in Godswoods except for the small one Brienne encounters in Feast (forgot where, Crackclaw?). There's the one in the Citadel, Harrenhal, and Riverrun that I can remember.

I'll have more to say once I reread the chapter :P

[Arrow Gamer]

So I noticed this about the prologue: Royce yells, "For Robert!"

Could this be construed as not going a long with vows, and being a man of the Seven Kingdoms and not a "true" watchman?

Because if so, the reason he lost and his blade shattered could well be because, as someone (maybe Aemon?) said, the Wall will fall when the Night's Watch is no longer true. So if Royce wasn't a true Watchman, he may have lost because of that.

Sorry if this was already mentioned, I skipped much of the thread. Thought I'd add it on, though.

[DrunkSister]

the reason he lost and his blade shattered could well be because, as someone (maybe Aemon?) said, the Wall will fall when the Night's Watch is no longer true.

Old Nan AFAIK

Questions about prologue were actually argued extensively at the very beginning of the reread with good arguments on all sides. It might be useful for you to read a bit of that. I learned a lot.

[nanother]

It was Old Nan. Bran recalls it 3 times (at least), twice before crossing in ASoS and once after, when they're starting to have doubts about Coldhands. What she actually said is probably the third, most complete one:

1. It was the end of the world, Old Nan always said. On the other side were monsters and giants and ghouls, but they could not pass so long as the Wall stood strong.

2. Beyond the gates the monsters live, and the giants and the ghouls, he remembered Old Nan saying, but they cannot pass so long as the Wall stands strong. So go to sleep, my little Brandon, my baby boy. You needn’t fear. There are no monsters here.

3. Bran found himself remembering the tales Old Nan had told him when he was a babe. Beyond the Wall the monsters live, the giants and the ghouls, the stalking shadows and the dead that walk, she would say, tucking him in beneath his scratchy woolen blanket, but they cannot pass so long as the Wall stands strong and the men of the Night’s Watch are true. So go to sleep, my little Brandon, my baby boy, and dream sweet dreams. There are no monsters here.

In other news, I'm still hoping to resume this re-read. Looking at the ACoK chapter list at ToH, there seem to be

1. the 'North' chapters, Jon and Bran (8 and 7 chapters respectively)

2. Theon's chapters (6) - info about both the Ironborn and the North

3. Arya and Cat chapters (10 and 7) - probably worth skimming

4. Sansa and Tyrion chapters might contain bits due to one being a Stark and the other very knowledgeable, but I think can be left out

5. 'Melisandre' chapters: Prologue and 3 Davos chapters - might be better off in the Dany thread

6. Dany chapters - 5 of them: I think we should start with wrapping up AGoT Dany and then reading these while we decide what to do with the rest. Seeing that it's only 5 chapters and mostly far less Heretically intense than Jon and Bran tends to be, I can even commit to writing chapter summaries for all, if needed.

Also, I edited the opening post; it now has a link to wolfmaid7's 'essential guide to heresy' with an index to all Heresy threads and more, and also an index of chapter summaries, 'cause this thread is a nightmare to navigate with all the long posts.

@Mirijam: LOL @ Robb vs heart tree; and yeah Bracken and Blackwood agreeing :wideeyed:

Crowning in itself gives legitimacy to claimants? By what tradition? Or is it simply that Stannis might refuse the crown yet?

I think it's just that.