Drawing Blood From a Bolton

[Lady Wylla Manderly]

One thing I'm really curious about is the idea of "curses." From Martin's comments about there not being "real gods" in the series, I've been interested in looking for explanations that go beyond the notion of divine punishment and sin, and that's part of why the notion of misused magic appeals to me.

In terms of ethics and morality, people do talk about curses and sins: kinslaying, guest right, etc. Yet, those who defile these morals aren't punished by the gods-- they're punished by other people. These are the named sins we see, and they go against the social order, and as such, seem to be punished by men.

I don't think "gods" punish people as such. I'm wondering if the issue is that when people go against the natural order, this may be what causes those natural imbalances and also harm to the user (Dalla's "sword without a hilt"). That is, I think misuse of magic might be the closest thing we may have to something like a "divine sin," and it seems to result in strange magical ramifications that are unpredictable, appearing like a punishment doled by the gods.

As it pertains, I wonder if the issue of the Boltons is an issue of their having tried to practice some kind of magic and are "cursed" by the effects of their having done so. Not that it's a divine curse, but that through some kind of magic in the past that changed their nature, or something like that. I'm not disagreeing with you, only that I think it's an interesting metaphysical question about the nature of "curses" and divine punishment, or whether there's something else at play.

I used the word "Gods" because that's how they're referred as in the books. I think it's clear that GRRM didn't create any "Gods" as we understand them. (The absence of the "creation" element in the religions is a big hint of this.)

However, there still is some power behind religions. (Except for Faith of the Seven.) Old Gods = greenseers, R'hllor = magic and shadows, Him of Many Faces = another type of magic, etc...

The part I bolded is actually what I meant earlier. "They pissed off the Old Gods," by upsetting the balance (and misusing magical powers) and forcing greenseers to intervene?

I do not find the usage of the word "curse" wrong, though. I stand by it. Even in the modern world, the word "curse" does not necessarily mean the wrath of God(s) or is linked to a divine power. There are a lot of legends, stories and myths about curses started by people.

[Daario's*before*Snows]

Maybe Roose is blood doping like Lance Armstrong.

[butterbumps!]

I used the word "Gods" because that's how they're referred as in the books. I think it's clear that GRRM didn't create any "Gods" as we understand them. (The absence of the "creation" element in the religions is a big hint of this.)

However, there still is some power behind religions. (Except for Faith of the Seven.) Old Gods = greenseers, R'hllor = magic and shadows, Him of Many Faces = another type of magic, etc...

The part I bolded is actually what I meant earlier. "They pissed off the Old Gods," by upsetting the balance (and misusing magical powers) and forcing greenseers to intervene?

I do not find the usage of the word "curse" wrong, though. I stand by it. Even in the modern world, the word "curse" does not necessarily mean the wrath of God(s) or is linked to a divine power. There are a lot of legends, stories and myths about curses started by people.

Sorry, I wasn't at all questioning your use of "curse," I just wasn't sure if you'd meant a literal divine punishment, and it seems like we agree that it's not about literal gods.

So if I understand you correctly, you're suggesting that the way the Boltons are-- in terms of appearance, nature and behavior-- might be a byproduct of some past "crime" of sorts, potentially of a magical nature? I think that's largely what I was thinking, whether they tried to practice magic or descend from some unholy union of man-corpse or the like, or something else entirely.

[Lady Wylla Manderly]

Sorry, I wasn't at all questioning your use of "curse," I just wasn't sure if you'd meant a literal divine punishment, and it seems like we agree that it's not about literal gods.

So if I understand you correctly, you're suggesting that the way the Boltons are-- in terms of appearance, nature and behavior-- might be a byproduct of some past "crime" of sorts, potentially of a magical nature? I think that's largely what I was thinking, whether they tried to practice magic or descend from some unholy union of man-corpse or the like, or something else entirely.

Nope, not literal gods at all.

Sounds about right. People have come up with very interesting theories and suggestions as to what those "magical crime(s)" could be. My personal favourites are:

• They tried to practice "skinchanging" because Starks could do it, hence the whole "flaying and wearing the skin of people" tradition has started. (Perhaps they even started doing it to the Starks? Didn't Ygritte hint something about a Stark lord being flayed and "worn" by a Bolton?)
  
• The discussions on this thread. Mind blowing + disturbing.
  

As for "descend from some unholy union of man-corpse or the like," your wording reminded me of Old Nan's tale about Night's King. She seemed sure that it was a Stark, but she also said that some people suggested it was a Bolton. Perhaps it really was, after all. (Though Heresy threads make really good arguments regarding why it was probably a Stark.)

[Dr. Pepper]

(The absence of the "creation" element in the religions is a big hint of this.)

Somewhat related, but it's interesting to note those cultures/religions who do have creation myths also have a tendency to be very suspicious or outright violent against magic or magical practitioners. The Dothraki, the Faith, and I believe the Rhoynar.

[redviper9]

Its more like they introduced something into their bloodline to get an edge on the Starks but it did not have the intended effect. They have a compulsion to act self destructively but they are essentially human. This trait is stronger in some than in others. So they instinctively want to destroy the Starks but if they were sucsessful they would destroy themselves. Somebody pointed out that the Sarks and the Boltons seem to have fundamentaly different values. On the other hand the long standing rule of house Bolton seems to indicates that it plays some sort of crucial role in the Northern system. I think will Roose will survive and take the black, Fat Waldas kid will live and be allowed to inherit his land and lordship and we will never really get to the bottom of a lot of this.

I had speculated earlier in this thread about how it was somewhat odd that the Starks had never extinguished the Boltons despite their numerous and often bloody challenges. The Starks wiped out the Greystarks just for supporting a Bolton rebellion; yet the Boltons were spared, and they remain one of the most powerful noble families in the North.

I hypothesized that the Boltons' survival might be a matter of balance (no light without the dark were my words); that is, the old Kings of Winter -- assuming that the Boltons are either descended from the Others or dabbled in magic with less than savory results -- knew of the Boltons' depravities but also realized that they were essential somehow to the natural balance of the North (balance of course being something that seems to be important to the magic of the Children of the Forest and the Old Gods). Just as it would have upset things to have the Boltons defeat the Starks, there might have been less than ideal consequences if the Boltons were completely wiped out.

And yes, I'm aware that mine is a rudimentary hypothesis.

[Sweet-N-SourRobin]

I hypothesized that the Boltons' survival might be a matter of balance (no light without the dark were my words); that is, the old Kings of Winter -- assuming that the Boltons are either descended from the Others or dabbled in magic with less than savory results -- knew of the Boltons' depravities but also realized that they were essential somehow to the natural balance of the North (balance of course being something that seems to be important to the magic of the Children of the Forest and the Old Gods). Just as it would have upset things to have the Boltons defeat the Starks, there might have been less than ideal consequences if the Boltons were completely wiped out.

To dovetail on this, I have a sneaking suspicion that the end of the last Long Night/Other Invasion came on the treaty table instead of the battlefield. They were not beaten, there was some sort of negotiation, or covenant between Others and Humanity/The First Men [EDIT: of which the Stark family/bloodline was some sort of lynchpin]. Perhaps brokered by the Children Of The Forest? "There Must Always Be A Stark In Winterfell" would of course have its roots in this (and perhaps there is something EXTRA BAD about there not only Not Being A Stark In Winterfell, but there being Boltons in it in their stead). Likewise the subconscious "call" that leads to their usually being a Stark On The Wall (and those Starks becoming LC with disproportionately high frequency). Not merely that they won't wipe out the Boltons due to balance, but can't due to the terms of the treaty, the covenant, and/or it is simply beyond their capability to do so. Hostage exchange? Perhaps their are men that the others "had" to take and look after on their side, and the comparable price is the Other-descended (if they indeed are) Bolton bloodline? Just thinking out loud..

[jarl the climber]

I agree with how the old Kings in the North were described as "cold and hard" men. Besides, I'm sure there's no House/family which every single member is good and honourable. I'm sure some of the old Starks did terrible things, just as some of the future Starks will.

However, I'm going to have to disagree about inbreeding.

First of all, there's absolutely no proof of this. Second, it has been implied that the First Men frown upon inbreeding even more than Southrons/Andals do. Not only there is no proof of any inbreeding between noble Houses in the North, but also Ygritte mentions something like even people from the same village not being able to get married because they were considered brothers and sisters.

So yeah... I've no idea where you came up with the inbreeding one o.O

You are thinking of the wildlings not the Northerners, When Jon mentions Craster she says that he is closer to your kind than ours. A lot of people in the book would say there is no proof of the Lannister incest but it is true. Nobody goes around shouting about it, except for the Targaryeans. I agree that the Faith or the Andals consider it a great evil and the product of it abominations, the Wildligs agree with this, hence Val gives Gillys baby the crib name Monster. The first Men who survived the Long Night, built the Wall, and rebuilt Westeros after it but before the Andals, I do not know what their veiws were. There were lots of small kingdoms, marrying outside of your immeadeate family risked giving an outsider a claim to your land. Its just a theme that comes up in the book a lot, people feel that the children born from these uniouns are abominations. Really we get beat over the head with it left and right that we almost become casual about it and forget how evil it is and come up with Other blood and other crazy theories but ignore the old true and proven one. I agree that I can not prove this in this instance, I admitted this from the beginning but we can't rule it out.

[jarl the climber]

There is an interesting scene in the Godswood of Winterfell when Ramsey is getting married. There is a heavy mist in the air because of the hot springs, it is refracting the light from the torches. According to Theon it made the guests features, " seem bestial, half-human, twisted". Lord Stout became a mastiff, Lord Locke a vulture, W. Umber a gargoyle, Big Walder a fox, Little Walder a bull. Theons half insane but I think the author has told us that there is a reason why people in the books resemble animals, so there is something to this, this is what he says about Roose. " it was a pale grey mask, with two chips of dirty ice where his eyes should be."

When Jon is reveiwing the wildings who he has let through the wall a warrior-witch known as Morna approaches him. She removes her weirwood mask just long enough to kiss his gloved hand and swears to be his man or woman, whichever he preferred. Its an odd statement, even odder if you consider that we see masks like this in the house of Black and White in Bravos.

I have no idea where I am going with this, they just seem like clues or something. Dirty ice really reminds me more of the wall than the Others.

[The Mother of The Others]

at one point they tried to obtain magic ("skinchanging"), but they eventually ended up doing something that pissed off the Old Gods.

the idea of "curses." Yet, those who defile these morals aren't punished by the gods-- they're punished by other people.

Hacking into the warg power without being a licensed user might have done the trick. Misuse of magic punished by the magical forces themselves.

Maybe the forces aren't sentient like actual gods but they are coded for certain users like mail at the post office finds it way to the right address. The users are supposed to either be deserving (the like-minded Starks) or magically proficient (Melisandre). If someone undeserving lays hands on the power, it'd create harmful feedback effects in their body and blow a fuse. A common motif is that magical cheaters who steal it without earning it grow deformed and acidic as if the rot in their greedy souls is carrying over into their bodies and manifesting as yuckiness. (I share Wylla's uncertainty about what I should root for: leaving the Boltons as jealous-magic-seekers-who-didn't-find-any would fit in with how the story uses magic only sparingly, less of it than we want, so as to keep us amazed and wanting more. If this is true, the Boltons' physical defects are a mark of failure, caused when they brushed up against Stark magic (or dark magic) but couldn't grasp hold of it and got burned/frozen/whatever. But George has also gotten us in the habit of expecting to find more than just what's on the surface level of the text, which would imply maybe there was Bolton magic and their vampire eyes are a mark of success. If this is true, Roose is using this magic today to make sure he comes out on top and is simply smart enough not to broadcast this fact in a way other characters or the reader would pick up on.)

I think will Roose will survive and take the black

I'd be more worried than ever about the Night's Watch then! That'd be a weird way to leave things. As if saying "If there ever was a sequel to ASOIAF, it'd be almost guaranteed to include Roose as the new Night King. So we're lucky the story stopped when it did."

Dalla's "sword without a hilt". That is, I think misuse of magic might be the closest thing we may have to something like a "divine sin."

I'd suspected that Coldhands may have said his vows at the weirgrove and thusly preserved more of himself.

Yeah it's tough to tell if magic punishes you more than usual for misusing it or if it just punishes you all the time because mortals aren't supposed to be using it to begin with. (Do we even have a chance of grabbing it by the hilt). I guess the cute and fuzzy warg wolves allowed the stark kids activate their warg powers "for free", but there was a catch: they didn't have to pay the price up front but they were now on the hook and had to pay the price later on. (Once you're onboard the warg train you've gotta play by ice magic rules or you get thrown from the train when the magic withdraws its favor from you and meet a grisly end without its protection. (The dragon binding horn's inscription can be read either way when it says ~ no mortal will sound me and live. Does that mean "everybody must pay the price to use me, always," or does it mean, "here's the exception that allows you to grab me by the hilt and not have to pay the price: just find someone to sound me who doesn't register as a mortal." I guess there are even worse penalties for abusing magic and then there's the standard penalties for using it properly, but examples aren't coming to me, it's just a gut feeling from the vibe in the text.

And I like the Coldhands-saved-by-oath thing, or saved by a Bloodraven overwrite of Other magic. That'd be cool. In some ways, I don't think the warmer zombies have anything to fear from the Others anymore. They're already reanimated, and they came back as themselves with an internal sense of identity. I think you have to be empty of all brain activity to have your eyes light up blue. Your brain has to have that Vacancy sign flashing neon like an available motel room. If the Others could hollow out Coldhands and replace his internal consciousness with their external blue-eyed control, they would have done so by now. Internal consciousness like his and Cat's trumps them.

[butterbumps!]

I was thinking about the comments about Roose's book burning, and came across a detail that is curious to me: Maester Aemon reveals that Harren the Black's brother was Lord Commander of the NW.

I know it's a huge leap to take this detail and connect it to much of anything about the book. It would be interesting though to consider the possibility that this book may have included some sort of "lost history" of the NW, the NK or some other connection. I admit it's a very thin connection, but it is a connection nonetheless between the Watch and Harrenhal from this.

[butterbumps!]

It does seem that there's some support to the notion that extended magic may change the essence of those who use it.

The Undying

The most obvious example of this is the Undying. They sit at a stone table, above which pulses a blue and corrupted human heart emitting blue light. Dany describes the figures as "blue shadows" that neither breathe nor move, but communicate with her almost telepathically. Ultimately, they do end up moving: when Dany emerges from her trance, the Undying have surrounded her, biting, sucking at her, seemingly trying to consume her energy/ power before Drogon immolates them.

It seems that the Undying were once humans who have unnaturally extended their lives by some yet-unknown magic (potentially shade of the evening has played a role given the blue cast). The human heart at the center suggests human sacrifice, and their desire to consume Dany suggests that drawing life from the living may correlate in some way to the sustenance of their powers or extended life. I think it's safe to conclude that the Undying are "inhuman" shades of creatures that were once human.

Melisandre

From Mel's POV:

The red priestess shuddered. Blood trickled down her thigh, black and smoking. The fire was inside her, an agony, an ecstasy, filling her, searing her, transforming her. Shimmers of heat traced patterns on her skin, insistent as a lover’s hand. Strange voices called to her from days long past. “Melony,” she heard a woman cry. A man’s voice called, “Lot Seven.” She was weeping, and her tears were flame. And still she drank it in.

We know that Mel wears a glamor to change her appearance; we also know that she's significantly older than her looks suggest. But she does speak to "transformation" through the flames, and it's clear that she has lost many "human" characteristics from her continued use of magic: she needs very little sleep, she barely eats or drinks, she radiates heat in the cold weather despite only wearing a silk robe. Further, she expects that one day she will lose the remainder of her mortal features:

Some nights she drowsed, but never for more than an hour. One day, Melisandre prayed, she would not sleep at all. One day she would be free of dreams.

It seems clear that Mel's engagement with magic has lessened her human essence, and that she believes that continued practice will eliminate her ties to mortal humanity.

Moqorro

I've already quoted the passage of Moqorro's extended description, but for the sake of completeness:

The wizard was a monster of a man, as tall as Victarion himself and twice as wide, with a belly like a boulder and a tangle of bone-white hair that grew about his face like a lion’s mane. His skin was black. Not the nut brown of the Summer Islanders on their swan ships, nor the red-brown of the Dothraki horselords, nor the charcoal-and-earth color of the dusky woman’s skin, but black. Blacker than coal, blacker than jet, blacker than a raven’s wing. Burned, Victarion thought, like a man who has been roasted in the flames until his flesh chars and crisps and falls smoking from his bones. The fires that had charred him still danced across his cheeks and forehead, where his eyes peered out from amongst a mask of frozen flames. Slave tattoos, the captain knew. Marks of evil.

Tyrion first met Moqorro and commented simply that the man's skin was black as "pitch." Given that the more detailed description immediately precedes Victarion's own magical burning, it may suggest that there is a connection between the description of the priest's skin as charred flesh and the spell Moqorro casts on Victarion. There's also the fact that Tyrion is less travelled than Victarion, and would probably be more likely to dismiss the priest's coloring as an ethnicity matter than Victarion would; Victarion explicitly says that he's not seen skin like this in his travels, and on this particular matter, I share Victarion's suspicions. It's also good to note that Moqorro spent 10 days at sea between being shipwrecked and his rescue by Victarion, which is not something that life forms requiring food and freshwater would survive.

Benerro

Benerro is the head of the Red Priests; Moqorro is his second in command, so it appears that these two may be the most powerful or skilled of the Reds. Like Mel, he's described as extremely pale:

Tall and thin, he had a drawn face and skin white as milk. Flames had been tattooed across his cheeks and chin and shaven head to make a bright red mask that crackled about his eyes and coiled down and around his lipless mouth. “Is that a slave tattoo?” asked Tyrion.

There are ethnicities that are also described as having "milk white skin," so this doesn't support the notion of magical transformation either way.

What I do find interesting, however, is the elaboration on the Red Priest's order, which includes priests, prostitutes and warriors:

The knight nodded. “The red temple buys them as children and makes them priests or temple prostitutes or warriors. Look there.” He pointed at the steps, where a line of men in ornate armor and orange cloaks stood before the temple’s doors, clasping spears with points like writhing flames. “The Fiery Hand. The Lord of Light’s sacred soldiers, defenders of the temple.”

Fire knights. “And how many fingers does this hand have, pray?”

“One thousand. Never more, and never less. A new flame is kindled for every one that gutters out.”

The idea of "fire knights" caught my attention, as all accounts of the Others describe them as ice knights. I don't believe that there's anything too conclusive about Benerro or the "fire nights," but I think it gives us something to consider, especially in light of the way Mel speaks of "black and white," and the fact that the only powerful Red Priests we see are either white as milk or black as pitch.

Thoros

Until very recently, Thoros wasn't a wizard or a particularly devout priest. He was genuinely surprised that his insides filled with fire and transferred life to Beric while performing the rite of the 'last kiss;" he hasn't been using magic for very long, and I'm not sure that any real conclusions can be drawn about transformation from him. We do know, however, that Beric increasingly lost himself through the continued resurrections, such that he could barely remember who he was toward the end.

the Others

Craster's wives remark that Monster's "brothers" have come for him, suggesting that babies are a fundamental component of Other-making. It's said elsewhere that the Others drink babies blood, and the blood of living humans generally (a claim that is also attributed to the willdings; I'm not sure if we have enough information to disaggregate which enormities are relevant to the wildlings or Others, as they are so conflated).

We do, however, have an alternate account of what the Others do with babies:

They hunted the maids through frozen forests, and fed their dead servants on the flesh of human children.

This supports the connection between the Others' habit of hunting women, and suggests that babies were used by the Others to feed their servants (the wights). It seems clear that there's a bloodlust between the Others and babies, but I find it interesting that Old Nan's story places the dead children with the wights rather than the Others; it's an interesting thought that potentially these sacrifices might have something to do with raising the wights as their thralls. We should be cautious about the idea that the wights feed on these babies, given that it seems the wights neither eat nor drink.

It's also interesting to note that in Old Nan's telling, the Others came for the first time during the Long Night. Leaf confirms that in the beginning, the CotF and giants were the only humanoid forms native to Westeros. It seems there's no mention of the Others prior to human inhabitation of the continent.

[Theda Baratheon]

I LOVE THIS THEORY, I LOVE THIS THREAD

[The Mother of The Others]

Isn't it extra weird that Moqorro survives so long in the sea which isn't even his element. So as long as it's non-magical water, his fire powers don't suffer any kind of negative reaction as you'd expect if he'd been immersed in his nemesis element.

Okay, you, that last bit makes it that much more plausible that the Boltons carry an Other gene they acquired during the long night. New twist to consider as an explanation for why they weren't immediately put down: maybe it was....you know...not consensual? So the other northerners had pity on them instead of considering them traitors to our species. And THEN, after the gene was passed down to their childen, then the bad blood started to surface in the form of disturbing behavior. (?)

Re: men arrive and then Others appear. (I'll trust you on that since I have no inclination to verify anything anyone says on here ever as that would entail homework, but you seem to be impeccable as a quoter of text and as a user of ever more obscure S.A.T. vocabulary words, so.......) Based on this premise, we are forced to entertain the notion that a radioactive planetary thermostat is located deep in the northern wastes that mutates you if you draw too near to it, transforming humans into Others like the nuclear plant on the Simpsons produced that beloved three-eyed fish. You become Otherized as a result of...... yearning for power in ways you shouldn't have? Trying to acquire magic on par with what the forest children have, so that the first men could hope to fight the children on equal footing? But we humans can't handle the truth, so we have to split the truth (magic) apart in order to grab the smaller amount of power we can manage, but by doing that we've damaged the thermostat, and now the elements are out of whack, and magic is smashed so that only its elements still function but the higher functions are lost and the world spins into chaos, and it's our fault (the first men), and we had to deal with the fallout by erecting a huge wall and pretending it never happened, which seemed like the best way to go at the time.

[Larry of the Lawn]

Excellent job. I love how the mythology/history/legend between Stark and Bolton is described here, it really fits the tone from the text about the Old Gods and blood and skinchanging and death and ice.

We can't skinchange, but we can flay.

Even if this theory doesn't turn out to be true, most everything in here is accurate and true to the books. My heartrate quickens anticipating what will unfold up North. I would love for the Bolton's to actually have some kind of evil Craster type sacrificial fealty to the Others and that their status and power are derived from that history.

Boo yah! This made my day.

[E-Ro]

Sorry for the necro, but I find this thread interesting. I was thinking about the bolton vs stark rivalry and this thread explains very nicely why the boltons and Starks were constantly fighting. I also explains why roose is such a creeper.

[Clariana]

I think the Boltons and the Starks need each other in that they are essentially two forces balancing each other out. The Starks developed warging the Boltons developed skinning and bloodletting, feeding on fear and pain.

As for the 1st Reek I love the suggestion that he may have been Roose's plaything before being ceded to Ramsey, was he too a Bolton bastard? His odour being the externalisation of a "rotting soul" as Ramsey is the internalisation of the same notion?

[purrl1]

This is a fascinating thread. Thanks, Butterbumps!

I'm convinced that the Bolton's custom of flaying enemies and wearing their skins--especially the Starks'--did have its roots in blood magic of some kind. I'm not sure that Roose & Ramsey are in fact practicing magic, but it wouldn't surprise me if Roose does eventually.

Has it occurred to anyone that this resembles the death magic of the Faceless Men? That is, the Faceless Men wear the faces of the dead as a form of shapeshifting. (Plus, the temple in Braavos has doors made of ebony and weirwood.)

We've seen Ramsay pass himself off as Reek and Jeyne Poole off as Arya Stark by mundane means. Will he or Roose learn to use their skin cloaks to shapeshift as the Faceless Men use their masks? Perhaps to pose as Stannis or Mance? We've got an instance of Melisandre using bones to disguise Mance as Rattleshirt, so . . .

Just a thought.

[Ragnorak]

In Fevre Dream, another book by Martin, he has a character with ice colored eyes and a rather unnerving stare who wants to transform into a vampire.

[Jason Steakums]

I may have missed someone making this connection already, but there's clear precedence for pseudo-warging with flayed skin: The Faceless Men of Braavos.

Which makes me wonder, if Arya has visions of her face's previous owner, how deep is the connection if youre wearing an entire body's worth of skin and not just the face? Combine that thought with all of the malleable identity stuff that the FM hold so important, and you start opening up questions like "oh crap - is Theon really Theon or just the real Reek in Theon's skin?", which I'm 99% sure isn't actually what's going on, but it would be pretty cool.

Anyways, yeah - the Boltons might have some magic up their sleeves along the lines of the Faceless Men.

ETA: just noticed purrl1 mentioning the FM a couple posts up! Apparently I'm not at my most observant tonight...