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A King in Hiding: Adding It All Up


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#261 Fire Eater

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 12:58 AM

Jon is the only candidate for Kingship who has no idea who his mother was.


Good one, to that I'll add

"Kings have no friends," Stannis said bluntly, "only subjects and enemies."
"And brothers," a cheerful voice called out behind her.

Men of the NW refer to their fellow members as brothers, and Jon has more brothers than any other contender.

#262 Harlaw's Book

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 07:19 PM

"Good Queen Alysanne, they called her later. One of the castles on the Wall was named for her as well. Queensgate. Before her visit they called it Snowgate."

I don't think that it got renamed Queensgate detracts from the fact that at the Wall "Snow" got renamed into something royal.

#263 Cinder Stark

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 07:57 PM

I personally don't see Jon as the type of person who would stand in his brother's way, even if the North did try to make him their king. As soon as Rickon would be recovered, Jon would likely step aside willingly. I stated in another thread what I see in the northern situation right now. Here's a summary: Bolton holds the North with a very fragile grasp. Manderly, a powerful lord, plots against him. Stannis, an invader, holds a point of power in the North and has persuaded the Mountain Clans, half the Umbers, the Glovers, and finally the Mormonts to join him. Also, Stannis has acquired the Karstark men as well. The Northern lords are angry at the betrayal of Robb, and still wish for independence. Manderly knows, or suspects, Rickon's location and has even sent for him. The Northern Lords could very easily use Stannis to fight Bolton and then depose of him once Winterfell has been re-acquired. This is the likeliest course for the Northern lords to take. If, for some reason, they somehow use Jon as a rally point for continued Northern independence by right of Robb's Will, I don't see Jon standing in the way once Rickon is recovered. You are only partially right... as things stand, the IT does hold the North, but they clearly can't enforce anything and they even have more uprising they're still fighting there.


Robb naming Jon as his heir is just that, Jon is next in line, his heir. Jon's kids would continue after him, there is no taking something from his brothers/cousins, he inherits it all. It's not a bad thing for the Stark kids, rickon could be a knight, etc. I think after all is said a done, the realm and the north will need strong leadership. The stark kids will need that also, and some peace. Jon is perfect!! Besides he is the king, of the north and the targ heir.

Edited by Cinder Stark, 13 February 2013 - 08:00 PM.


#264 Sasha Steelsong

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 08:17 PM

Robb naming Jon as his heir is just that, Jon is next in line, his heir. Jon's kids would continue after him, there is no taking something from his brothers/cousins, he inherits it all. It's not a bad thing for the Stark kids, rickon could be a knight, etc. I think after all is said a done, the realm and the north will need strong leadership. The stark kids will need that also, and some peace. Jon is perfect!! Besides he is the king, of the north and the targ heir.

But Jon would never take from Rickon that which should be his. I don't think Jon would accept Winterfell and the Lordship if he thought any of his siblings remained. Something I think he's going to be aware of shortly, particularly since Manderly knows that at least one of Ned's sons is alive. More likely he'll serve as regent to Rickon than take the title from him. I think especially so if he finds out he's not Ned's son at all.

Edited by atpthornton, 13 February 2013 - 08:18 PM.


#265 WiDMNDBAMMD

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 08:18 PM

are you implying that his mother was not a Stark?


Not at all, I was just pointing out how ironic it is that statement is, especially coming from one of the more cleaver characters that we see in the books, Tyrion.

Jon actually looks nothing like his father...

#266 Lady of Long Lake

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 08:37 PM

"Allow me to give my lord one last piece of counsel," the old man had said, "the same counsel that I once gave my brother when we parted for the last time. He was three-and-thirty when the Great Council chose him to mount the Iron Throne."

Aemon gives Jon the same advice he gave to a man who was to become king.


Love that one:)

Another moment that's been noted in other threads (but not in this one so far) is the Kings of Winter telling Jon in his dreams that he "doesn't belong" in the Winterfell crypts. On the surface, this is just Jon working through the issues that resulted from him being raised as a bastard (and obviously that is at play here).


I thought the same thing on rereads. Jon is thinking they don't want him there because his last name is Snow. I believe the old Kings want him to feel unwelcome there because his last name was Targaryen the day he was born. I do think there was a marriage before Jon was born.

Edited by Lady of Long Lake, 13 February 2013 - 08:39 PM.


#267 Cinder Stark

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 08:48 PM

But Jon would never take from Rickon that which should be his. I don't think Jon would accept Winterfell and the Lordship if he thought any of his siblings remained. Something I think he's going to be aware of shortly, particularly since Manderly knows that at least one of Ned's sons is alive. More likely he'll serve as regent to Rickon than take the title from him. I think especially so if he finds out he's not Ned's son at all.


If Robb names Jon heir, than Jon's heir, it doesn't matter if rickon, Sansa, Arya or bran is alive. I don't think Jon is going to rescue the realm then turn over lordship to rickon because I think Jon is going to be king of the north, his seat will be at winterfall. I'm sure he will take care of all the Starks, rickon will be a great lord or knight, even given lands. After the war, defeating the others, I believe Jon deserve his kingship. Finding out the truth about his mother, is sad, but it doesn't make Jon less of a stark.

#268 Sand Snake No. 9

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 09:36 PM

But Jon would never take from Rickon that which should be his. I don't think Jon would accept Winterfell and the Lordship if he thought any of his siblings remained. Something I think he's going to be aware of shortly, particularly since Manderly knows that at least one of Ned's sons is alive. More likely he'll serve as regent to Rickon than take the title from him. I think especially so if he finds out he's not Ned's son at all.


That assumes that revived Jon will be the same as live Jon. Who knows what his opinion about things will be after he awakes from a coma/returns from the dead. Remember he was also sorely tempted by Stannis' offer of Winterfell even though he knew Sansa was alive. He refused Stannis' offer because it came with too many conditions, not because he was saving it for Lady Lannister.

#269 Sasha Steelsong

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 09:43 PM

That assumes that revived Jon will be the same as live Jon. Who knows what his opinion about things will be after he awakes from a coma/returns from the dead. Remember he was also sorely tempted by Stannis' offer of Winterfell even though he knew Sansa was alive. He refused Stannis' offer because it came with too many conditions, not because he was saving it for Lady Lannister.

Well yes but that is because 1) I don't believe Jon will need to be resurected and will still be live Jon - though injured and certainly more jaded; and 2) If he is revived from the dead I don't think he has any business being King of anything. I love him to pieces, he's one of my favorites, but if he's an undead, sorry but he has NO BUSINESS being Lord of Winterfell or anything else that would require him to produce an heir. Period, end of discussion.

And I don't think he would have had the issues he had with turning down Stannis' offer if he knew what Manderly knew and that one of the boys was definitely alive. Sansa has baggage that would have involved a Lannister becoming Lord of Winterfell which cannot be discounted when evaluating his decision to turn down Stannis. Of course he would be hesitant to give the castle/title over to Tyrion (even though he liked him personally) because of the huge rift between the families. Yet even with the rift, he insisted that Winterfell was Sansa's. The only thing I could see changing his mind is Robb's will, and even then only as long as he thought Rickon and Bran were dead, because even with Robb's will I don't see him robbing his little brother (whether they are really cousins or not, they were raised as siblings).

Edited by atpthornton, 13 February 2013 - 09:44 PM.


#270 Addam of Hull

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 09:56 PM

Well yes but that is because 1) I don't believe Jon will need to be resurected and will still be live Jon - though injured and certainly more jaded; and 2) If he is revived from the dead I don't think he has any business being King of anything. I love him to pieces, he's one of my favorites, but if he's an undead, sorry but he has NO BUSINESS being Lord of Winterfell or anything else that would require him to produce an heir. Period, end of discussion.

And I don't think he would have had the issues he had with turning down Stannis' offer if he knew what Manderly knew and that one of the boys was definitely alive. Sansa has baggage that would have involved a Lannister becoming Lord of Winterfell which cannot be discounted when evaluating his decision to turn down Stannis. Of course he would be hesitant to give the castle/title over to Tyrion (even though he liked him personally) because of the huge rift between the families. Yet even with the rift, he insisted that Winterfell was Sansa's. The only thing I could see changing his mind is Robb's will, and even then only as long as he thought Rickon and Bran were dead, because even with Robb's will I don't see him robbing his little brother (whether they are really cousins or not, they were raised as siblings).


He wouldn't be robbing his cousins/brothers of anything. Inheriting a position as a Lord and being crowned as a King are two very different things. Mormont and Jon have that exact conversation in aCoK about how the two aren't really the same. Even if Rickon was around to claim Winterfell, it'd be tantamount to suicide to allow him to do so. Rickon's only six, has no experience or education about being a Lord, and he can't lead his men in any meaningful way. He'd be Tommen all over again and it wouldn't be the Starks leading the North, it'd be the North leading the Starks. More to the point, Jon accepting the position of King in the North/King of Winter is one of the best things he can do for the sake of the realm. It puts him in place to truly rally a force to beat back the Others with and, as King, he could definitely give Rickon a Lordship somewhere. That's what the Stark kings of old did with the Greystarks and Karstarks, so it's not out of the question.

#271 Sasha Steelsong

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 10:11 PM

He wouldn't be robbing his cousins/brothers of anything. Inheriting a position as a Lord and being crowned as a King are two very different things. Mormont and Jon have that exact conversation in aCoK about how the two aren't really the same. Even if Rickon was around to claim Winterfell, it'd be tantamount to suicide to allow him to do so. Rickon's only six, has no experience or education about being a Lord, and he can't lead his men in any meaningful way. He'd be Tommen all over again and it wouldn't be the Starks leading the North, it'd be the North leading the Starks. More to the point, Jon accepting the position of King in the North/King of Winter is one of the best things he can do for the sake of the realm. It puts him in place to truly rally a force to beat back the Others with and, as King, he could definitely give Rickon a Lordship somewhere. That's what the Stark kings of old did with the Greystarks and Karstarks, so it's not out of the question.

You presume that I think the North will be independant at the end and I don't, particularly if it turns out the big battle is on the Trident, the North will be ravaged by the Others and unable to stand on its own and will need the rest of Westeros to recover. And regardless of if it is a crown or a lordship, if he knew that Rickon was alive I don't think he's step in his way as he would be robbing Rickon of his rights, as Ned's children would all take before Lyanna's, whether it was the northern crown or as Warden. It would not be tanamount to suicide for Rickon to claim Winterfell because I fully believe that Jon would serve as his regent, and thus the Starks would be leading the North. The problem with Tommen is not Tommen, the problem with Tommen is that there are no capable adults around him to govern, thus power is in Cersei's hands. For the brief period that Kevan is in charge as Regent, things are actually going quite well, so well in fact that Varys has to kill him because Varys wants chaos which means getting Cersei back in charge. Jon can still run the North (or the whole kingdom) for the next decade while claiming neither throne nor lordship, which I would expect him to do, but no I don't think the character I've read for five books would take the title if he knew it belonged to one of his younger cousins whom he grew up thinking were siblings.

Edited by atpthornton, 13 February 2013 - 10:12 PM.


#272 Team_Rob

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 11:25 PM

If Jon is indeed The Song Of Ice And Fire then if Mel brings Jon back and he learns of his true parentage, then the fire (Jon thought Melisandre was fire) melts the ice, and it becomes water (as in Waters, a bastard name for someone from the crownlands)

#273 Little and Less

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 12:14 PM

Although I wish this was mine, I saw this in the moments of foreshawdowing but I thought of this thread. At the tournament in Harrenhall, Rheagar crowns Lyanna the Queen of Love and Beauty, bypassing his current queen (and indirectly her children the supposed heirs to the IT). Note that he gives her a crown of blue roses, but he doesn't put it on her head, he lays it in her lap. Thus Rheagar makes her a "Queen" and basically lays a crown on her "belly" - which could symbolize the eventual birth of the crown prince (and future king) - JS.

Hmm.....

#274 Jayc

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 12:38 PM

A verse that might be a little foreshadowing that Jon is both Targ and Azor Ahai

A Feast of Crows - Sam's 1st chapter page 109-110

"He (Same) got on his knees to pick up the books he dropped....Jade Compendium and Dragonkin, Being a History of House Targ from Exile to Apotheosis, with a Consideration of the Life and Death of Dragons. It had come open as it fell and a few pages had gotten muddy, including one with a rather nice picture of Balerion the Black Dread done in colored ink. Same cursed himself for a clumsy oaf as he smoothed the pages. Gilly's presence always flustered him and gave rise to....well risings. A Sworn Brother of the Nights Watch should not be feeling the sort of things that Gilly made him feel especially when she would talk about her breasts and....

"Lord Snow is waiting".....

One thing I notice when reading this verse is the mention of dropping to a knee and of rising, similiar to one's presence in front of a king. The very first post in this thread shows a simliar technique in connecting Jon and Targ bloodline.

#275 Sand Snake No. 9

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 04:36 AM

All y'all think Jon is so noble and self-sacrificing. Damn, I hope he isn't!

#276 Fire Eater

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 10:51 PM

Beneath the empty eyes of the skulls on the walls, Jaime hauled the last dragonking bodily off the steps, squealing like a pig and smelling like a privy.

I am bleeding like a butchered pig, he [Jon] thought

So pigs are synonymous with dragonkings, it seems Jaime didn't kill the last one after all.

Edited by Fire Eater, 22 February 2013 - 02:02 PM.


#277 bemused

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 12:39 AM

Pigs? teeheeheeheehee...

Little and Less.. I love that crown on the belly hint , too.

#278 Harlaw's Book

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 12:51 AM

When the Thenns march on the Wall, Jon fights from the King's Tower.

#279 Fire Eater

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 07:04 PM

"And the king is just a boy," said the oldest of the four septas. "Who is to rule us until he comes of age?"
"Lord Tywin's brother," said a guardsman. "Or that Lord Tyrell, might be. Or the Kingslayer"

Kevan has had his brief rule, he will be followed briefly by the Hand, Mace Tyrell, now that Kevan is dead. After Tyrell's death, Jaime will later become Cersei's Hand of the King.

Jaime may be the last to rule the crown before the king, Jon, has come of age and grown out of boyhood to take the throne.

Edited by Fire Eater, 30 March 2013 - 02:47 PM.


#280 Apple Martini

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 07:25 PM

When the Thenns march on the Wall, Jon fights from the King's Tower.


This is a good one.

I also like Tze's observation about Jon not knowing who his mother was and kings not being supposed to have mothers.

Even if only half of these things are true/intentional, it's a ton.