415 replies to this topic

[Stubby]

Note that this thread will contain full book spoilers from every post below this one. If you've been waiting two decades to read the ending, you may want to avoid this thread.

And thus the second thread came to pass.

[wolverine]

Just finished.  Wow it feels strange to be done.

[Stubby]

wolverine, on 20 January 2013 - 08:44 PM, said:

Just finished.  Wow it feels strange to be done.

Yep.  After a full reread of the entire series before reading AMoL it was like, "what now"?

[peterbound]

I just read the phrase, 'That hussy!' (page 412), and laughed... out loud... for all the wrong reasons.  

I feel like i'm having a conversation with an 82 year old mormon woman with some of this dialog.  FSM, why am I doing this to myself?

[peterbound]

Stubby, on 20 January 2013 - 08:47 PM, said:

Yep.  After a full reread of the entire series before reading AMoL it was like, "what now"?

We do have a thread for recommendations.  I'm not sure everyone realizes it's there, what with all the 'tell me what to read next' threads we get, but it's up there.

Edited by peterbound, 20 January 2013 - 09:59 PM.

[Stubby]

peterbound, on 20 January 2013 - 09:59 PM, said:

We do have a thread for recommendations.  I'm not sure everyone realizes it's there, what with all the 'tell me what to read next' threads we get, but it's up there.

I have already moved on.  With another "next book" due out shortly (The Daylight War) I'm rereading The Painted Man (The Warded Man in some parts of the world).  I also knocked off Stuart McBride's latest Logan McRae novel over the weekend.  I meant "what now (should that be WOT now) with respect to Rand and crew.

[Caligula_K2]

The wheel of time turns, and ages come to pass, leaving memories that become legend. Legend fades to myth, and even myth is long forgotten when the age that gave it birth comes again. In one age, called the 2010s by some, an age yet to come, an age long past, I FINALLY FINISHED THIS FUCKING SERIES. I feel like Frodo after the ring has been destroyed. 14 books later (+ one really bad prequel)... it's done.

Pretty mediocre last book overall too, sadly (imo). It's a lot of battleporn, for 700 pages. Some of which is interesting, the majority of which is not and the equivalent to Jordan's descriptions of woman's dresses... except now with descriptions of Trollocs' heads exploding instead (Trolloc genocide is committed in this book). There are some very good moments though, generally in the first 200 pages before the never ending battles start- I enjoyed the Rand and Mat scenes and the Black Tower plotline in particular. And Demandred was a pretty compelling antagonist and by far the most competent of the Forsaken we've ever seen. Egwene and Gawyn both got good death scenes, and other than Siuan and Bryne were I think the only two majorish characters to die (aside from Birgitte, but she doesn't count because she comes back five seconds later).

But otherwise the general trend was... mediocrity. And I'm slightly confused as to how Sanderson decided what made the cutting floor and what didn't. We get 200 pages of Borderland battles that are ultimately irrelevant but no Rand/Min goodbye or Lan/Moiraine reunion? We spend 400 pages following the completely uninteresting battle in Andor only for it to be resolved offscreen? Padan Fain gets 5 pages of screentime? We really need another 17 chapters of Perrin chasing Slayer through the Wolf Dream but only get one chapter showing the aftermath of the last battle?

As for Rand, I was pretty underwhelmed by his confrontation against the Dark One, as well as the epilogue. It was very obvious that Rand was going to survive, but that doesn't make it any less lame that Rand rides off into the sunset after pulling the old last minute switcheroo with Moridin. Also kind of a dick move to make all your friends think you're dead, Rand.

There's no way a Memory of Light had to be a trilogy. So much of Towers of Midnight could be erased, including one of my least favourite plotline of the series, the rescue of Moiraine, which accomplished next to nothing in the end (though that one's Jordan's fault). Ditto for a lot of the battleporn. Still, I'm very grateful to Sanderson for delivering the best Wheel of Time book since Lord of Chaos (the Gathering Storm) and for providing an ending that did have some excellent moments. It wasn't a great ending, but it was an ending. So kudos to him, and here's to hoping I never read a series this long ever again.

And now to read through the whole spoiler thread to see what others thought...

Edit: And also, have we ever heard of the Sharans before this book? I mean, I'm sure we've heard of them, but have they been relevant to the plot in any way? Because they came completely out of nowhere and felt like a fairly cheap plot twist, especially after so much had been built up about Demandred's plans.

Edited by Caligula_K2, 21 January 2013 - 03:01 AM.

[elmis]

I feel a lot like you Caligula_K2, great post.

Edited by elmis, 21 January 2013 - 04:13 AM.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

I finished last night.  It was okay.

[Frey Pie]

Caligula_K2, on 21 January 2013 - 02:38 AM, said:

Edit: And also, have we ever heard of the Sharans before this book? I mean, I'm sure we've heard of them, but have they been relevant to the plot in any way? Because they came completely out of nowhere and felt like a fairly cheap plot twist, especially after so much had been built up about Demandred's plans.

The Sharans were mentioned regularly enough throughout the books, in the last few mostly from Noal/Jain, and with the big "Where is Demandred?"plot it seemed obvious to me that they would show up. If youve read the World of Wheel of Time then theres a nuce bit in that about them. Basically Demandred needed to be big, bad and powerful and only Shara gave him that base

[Rhom]

Finished last night.  I enjoyed it.  Were there flaws, sure.  But as to "What made the cutting room floor?"

Caligula_K2, on 21 January 2013 - 02:38 AM, said:

But otherwise the general trend was... mediocrity. And I'm slightly confused as to how Sanderson decided what made the cutting floor and what didn't. We get 200 pages of Borderland battles that are ultimately irrelevant but no Rand/Min goodbye or Lan/Moiraine reunion? We spend 400 pages following the completely uninteresting battle in Andor only for it to be resolved offscreen? Padan Fain gets 5 pages of screentime? We really need another 17 chapters of Perrin chasing Slayer through the Wolf Dream but only get one chapter showing the aftermath of the last battle?

As for Rand, I was pretty underwhelmed by his confrontation against the Dark One, as well as the epilogue. It was very obvious that Rand was going to survive, but that doesn't make it any less lame that Rand rides off into the sunset after pulling the old last minute switcheroo with Moridin. Also kind of a dick move to make all your friends think you're dead, Rand.

At the book signing I went to, Sanderson said that the entire epilogue was written by Jordan himself and they included it with very little editing.  (Its also why there's no appendix to this book, they wanted the last words to be RJ's own.)  So Rand riding off into the sunset without a thought for his unborn children (as was mentioned in the last thread) or a farewell to Min or any other thing that we could have wished to see was obviously never meant to be included.  That doesn't exempt it from critique, just pointing out that the critique has to go somewhere.

Yes, the book is heavy on "battleporn" as some call it... but would anyone have been satisfied had the Last Battle been wrapped up in the same number of pages as the Assault on Rahvin's Caemlyn or Sammael's Illian?

A couple of thoughts that I had that I never saw mentioned:  My absolute favorite scene was all of one sentence, and I haven't seen anyone else bring it up.  Mat sat down on a Trolloc corpse and took a drink from his water flask because there was nowhere else to sit.

I can't find the link to it right now, but I remember an interview with Jordan about his time in Vietnam and he mentioned a picture he had come across of him sitting on a corpse of a Vietcong drinking from his flask with a dead look in his eyes.  

To see that real life war scene play out with Mat as the battle fatigued vet was a bit haunting.

Another great scene for me was when Roedran first showed up and all the Asha'man got nervous and Rand stared him down only to say "You're not him."  I haven't followed the theories all that much, but I had brushed up on some of them recently.  To see him blatantly address the Roemandred theory was enjoyable.

I had never thought I would miss the "Outrigger" and prequel novels, but now that I've read the book, I find myself regretting that they won't be written.  Particularly the scenes with Tam leading his men felt like they were crying out for more exposition about just exactly who was the man who raised the Dragon Reborn.

One last question for me though, was I mistaken that Perrin found Faile under a horse on the Fields of Merrilor?  I thought she got chased off into the blight near Thakan'dar?

I'm more than satisfied to see the end to the series and am grateful to Mr. Jordan that he spent his last days in service to his fans.

ETA:  Oh, I will say that I thought it was really Cadsuane that Thom killed at the end for just a heartbeat.  Wasn't Thom all friendly with Rand because he reminded him of a nephew that was hunted and gentled by an AS?  I don't recall if that was ever addressed, so for just a second I thought maybe Cadsuane had been the one to hunt him down.

Edited by Rhom, 21 January 2013 - 10:46 AM.

[Frey Pie]

I agree largely with you Rhom. However the chapter The Last Battle is fairly misleading. I got excited when i heard it was 200 pages long of fighting. But in fact there was also a couple of hundred pages either side of this chapter wholely committed to battle. I feel some of this could have been cut out for a few other scenes such as:
Rand and his ladies all together
All the Emonds Fielders together
Lan, Moiraine and Nynaeve
Arthur and Tuon
and so forth

Even to cut out a hundred pages of the battle and dedicate them to other facets of the story wouldnt have taken away from the epicness of the battle itself IMHO, but would have given a better rounded book

[Opisthokont]

Rhom, on 21 January 2013 - 10:40 AM, said:

One last question for me though, was I mistaken that Perrin found Faile under a horse on the Fields of Merrilor?  I thought she got chased off into the blight near Thakan'dar?

The camp outside Thakan'dar was the main supply camp for the Shadow's forces, and when they pretended to be carrying arrows they were all sent to Merrilor via gateway. At least that's how I remember it.

[Rhom]

Woo! Opi, on 21 January 2013 - 10:56 AM, said:

The camp outside Thakan'dar was the main supply camp for the Shadow's forces, and when they pretended to be carrying arrows they were all sent to Merrilor via gateway. At least that's how I remember it.

Eh... I thought they still came out in the Blasted Lands with Shayol Ghul visible in the background.  What mountain did Olver run up and get stuck in a crack if they didn't?  But then again, you may be right... why would the Band of the Red Hand have been in the mountains surrounding Thakan'dar.  I may have missed that.

[Caligula_K2]

Frey Pie, on 21 January 2013 - 10:13 AM, said:

The Sharans were mentioned regularly enough throughout the books, in the last few mostly from Noal/Jain, and with the big "Where is Demandred?"plot it seemed obvious to me that they would show up. If youve read the World of Wheel of Time then theres a nuce bit in that about them. Basically Demandred needed to be big, bad and powerful and only Shara gave him that base

Ahh, fair enough. It's been so long since I've read many of the books that I've forgotten a lot. It's a better plot twist than I thought, then. And I did enjoy Demandred's relationship with the Sharans and the fact that he was in love with one of them- not a side we've really seen from the Forsaken before, except maybe Asmodeon.

Quote

Yes, the book is heavy on "battleporn" as some call it... but would anyone have been satisfied had the Last Battle been wrapped up in the same number of pages as the Assault on Rahvin's Caemlyn or Sammael's Illian?

Oh, I agree with you that that would have been dissapointing. The last battle should have been epic. The problem is (imo) that the fighting lasts 700 pages, and that before the last battle even starts we have 400 pages of not really relevant or interesting fighting. The Last Battle chapter is the best part of the war narrative, but because we'd already gotten so much of Trollocs heads' exploding and generals being compulsed and Two Rivers men being incredibly badass, it too started to drag in points. And when I got to the end of that chapter and realized that there was still another 100 pages of fighting... Well, I was just exhausted by that point, and not in a good way. The book felt one dimensional, without enough quieter, more emotional scenes to tie it together.

Oh, and re: Min/Rand not having a goodbye scene, I didn't mean during the epilogue, I meant before he leaves for Shayol Ghul. It felt very odd that Rand got scenes with Elayne and Aviendha but not with Min, whom he's spent the most time with and with whom he has the most compelling relationship.

Edit to add: I was in England when I bought the book and my god are the British covers better. 90000x better. You Brits are damn lucky. Though you don't get the joy of seeing Rand with his shirt hanging open, muscles shining in the gloom on the cover of Lord of Chaos.

Edited by Caligula_K2, 21 January 2013 - 11:36 AM.

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

Olver ran up the side of the hill where Mat was fighting. If you look at the map of Merrilor, this is the large hill on the west side of the river.

[awesome possum]

Yep, they Traveled to Merrilor without realizing it had turned into a massive battlefield.

[Opisthokont]

Rhom, on 21 January 2013 - 11:12 AM, said:

Eh... I thought they still came out in the Blasted Lands with Shayol Ghul visible in the background.  What mountain did Olver run up and get stuck in a crack if they didn't

The heights northwest of the river at Merillor. The ones that Mat decided to abandon early in the battle and tried to retake later on. I half expected Olver to fall through the crack and hit Talmanes in the head.

[Frey Pie]

Caligula_K2, on 21 January 2013 - 11:34 AM, said:

Ahh, fair enough. It's been so long since I've read many of the books that I've forgotten a lot. It's a better plot twist than I thought, then. And I did enjoy Demandred's relationship with the Sharans and the fact that he was in love with one of them- not a side we've really seen from the Forsaken before, except maybe Asmodeon.

Dem, Messana and Semirhage had an alliance. Each wormed their way into the heart of the three main powers of Randland-Seanchan, the WT and Shara. Very clever ploy from the Forsaken. If Semi and Messana had of been as successful as Dem then the Shadow would have steamrolled the Light. Rand may still have won but hed have a broken land to heal. It was one of the "yes!!"moments for me in the book when they turned up

[Frey Pie]

Where did Aravine betray Faile so?