A Memory of Light [FULL SPOILER DISCUSSION] Part 2

[Shryke]

I'm not saying i enjoy the 'sub surface details', just some authors do them better than others. I don't think RJ handled them all that well. He had some many other plot lines, rabbit holes, and side details, that he couldn't maintain them, nor could he write them all that well into a cohesive story line. I also like 'hunting' for little detalis (why the fuck else would I read shit like Wolfe, or even Martin for that matter), but I think the author has a responsibility to actually make that shit work, and mean something. Every time I'd read RJ, I thought to myself, 'self, this is a pointless plot line', and you know what, I was right. You're also making the statement that you can't enjoy a book at a higher level if you don't go seeking out the bullshit. I disagree. Many people can, and do, enjoy the books without obsessing over Jon's parents, or a gholums ability to survive a gateway crossing.

Surely this isn't' something new to you? My complaints are pretty commonly leveled at WoT. I'm not breaking any new ground here.

All the details in WOT do mean something. Some of them are actually really important. Some of them are important in that stuff that scenes that maybe seem random or pointlessly detailed are all very meaningful if you know who is who. The biggest strength of the series is that all the little details line up. They all click together. It all means something.

As to comments about "seeking out bullshit", look, you can certainly enjoy any book (or movie or television series) on a superficial "what happens in the main plot" level, but any decent work of art is about more then that. There's ideas and themes and subtleties and all sorts of shit in there to be found when you put in some effort. What you call "seeking out bullshit" is really just "paying the fuck attention". And no, you aren't gonna enjoy a book at a higher level if you don't pay attention, think about what you are reading and put some goddamn effort into the process.

What I was trying to express I think was that after book 6 or 7, there were jut too many damned characters. And he kept introducing more, And more. And more. And there's a point where I just didn't care anymore.

Basically, too much bloat.

aGoT may have all those family trees in the back, sure, but you don't need to have them printed out in front of you in order to understand the damn book.

Part of the problem is yes, I've been reading these books for 20 years and my memory is fuzzy, but I don;t think it's just my problem alone.

I don't think it's the books though. I mean, it's not Gene Wolfe's fault cause I don't get all his allusions. It's not GRRM's fault that when I picked up ASOS back in 2000 I was lost cause I couldn't remember who the fuck any of the minor characters were. At some point, you have to put something in to a work of art to get something out of it.

[peterbound]

All the details in WOT do mean something. Some of them are actually really important. Some of them are important in that stuff that scenes that maybe seem random or pointlessly detailed are all very meaningful if you know who is who. The biggest strength of the series is that all the little details line up. They all click together. It all means something.

As to comments about "seeking out bullshit", look, you can certainly enjoy any book (or movie or television series) on a superficial "what happens in the main plot" level, but any decent work of art is about more then that. There's ideas and themes and subtleties and all sorts of shit in there to be found when you put in some effort. What you call "seeking out bullshit" is really just "paying the fuck attention". And no, you aren't gonna enjoy a book at a higher level if you don't pay attention, think about what you are reading and put some goddamn effort into the process.

I don't think it's the books though. I mean, it's not Gene Wolfe's fault cause I don't get all his allusions. It's not GRRM's fault that when I picked up ASOS back in 2000 I was lost cause I couldn't remember who the fuck any of the minor characters were. At some point, you have to put something in to a work of art to get something out of it.

Ha, we /are/ putting something into it. We are fucking reading it. I'm not going to fucking study the goddamn thing though. Nor am I going to get bent out of shape with theories, botched back stories, and what the author was thinking debates. Call me superficial, but i'd be willing to bet we've read the same fucking books, and have derived the same amount of joy from them, with out me putting in as much effort.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

You aren't getting the most you can out of the story, but that's okay, I'm probably not getting the most I can out of a lot of other things. There is a limited amount of time we have to we have to spent them judiciously. Some people likes to dabble in many things, some people like to get really into one thing. There is no right/wrong way to do it.

[Relic]

Ha, we /are/ putting something into it. We are fucking reading it. I'm not going to fucking study the goddamn thing though. Nor am I going to get bent out of shape with theories, botched back stories, and what the author was thinking debates. Call me superficial, but i'd be willing to bet we've read the same fucking books, and have derived the same amount of joy from them, with out me putting in as much effort.

Jesus christ, yes. We all get it. You think studying a book is stupid. Which is totally fine. You can think that way. And other people can enjoy the process of geeking out over something without your giant self hating dark cloud pissing all over the process.

[Darth Richard]

I don't think it's the books though. I mean, it's not Gene Wolfe's fault cause I don't get all his allusions. It's not GRRM's fault that when I picked up ASOS back in 2000 I was lost cause I couldn't remember who the fuck any of the minor characters were. At some point, you have to put something in to a work of art to get something out of it.

Ah, see, I remember minor characters when i pick up new entry in a lot of other series. Jordon's I just find to...faceless? Bland? Not sure if I'm describing it correctly.

[peterbound]

Jesus christ, yes. We all get it. You think studying a book is stupid. Which is totally fine. You can think that way. And other people can enjoy the process of geeking out over something without your giant self hating dark cloud pissing all over the process.

You're right. I can behind that.

I'm going to reread this shit. Maybe I'm missing something. I just keep feeling like I'm reading a YA novel when I've tried to catch up. I'm gonna give it the old college try.

[Relic]

I'm going to reread this shit.

I wouldn't, haha.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

Yeah, I'm not sure that WoT is worth the re-read. I was talking mostly about ASOIAF, now that's worth a re-read or two.

[Reposado]

Ah, see, I remember minor characters when i pick up new entry in a lot of other series. Jordon's I just find to...faceless? Bland? Not sure if I'm describing it correctly.

Well most of them are bland to begin witg

[Gertrude]

Jordan did intend that to be the last words of the book. He had stated before he had no intention of wrapping up everything in a neat bow. He felt it made the world seem artificial. So we'd see the main plotline resolved, but we wouldn't see, like, the Seanchan situation sorted out or the like.

What I think we would have seen more of if RJ was around would be more hints at what was to come. More scenes setting up the shape of the Fourth Age. We don't get alot of this in AMOL. In part because BS just didn't seem to want to write much more then just battle scenes in this damn book. But also, I think, because there may not have been clear notes on it and so he decided to just leave it open ended rather then make up his own idea in another guy's world.

Yes. I don't really care about how the world falls out. I'm curious, yes, but hints would have worked fine. The way in which I feel the ending was rushed is that we don't have any character moments. Like Nyneave talking about Egwene with someone and saying she will honor her memory by working towards her goals of uniting all channelers. Something like that. We just get BOOM, done. I don't wants pages and pages of it, just a few reactions for a tiny bit of closure.

[Guy Kilmore]

I do feel like the ending was written with RJ's intent on visiting the world again. Now that we don't have that opportunity the ending does not provide that emotional closure that we hope for. It was kind of Soprano-esque, except I would say this one rates better than the Sopranos.

[Gertrude]

Exactly.

(well, I've never seen Sopranos, so the other thing :P)

[Shryke]

Yes. I don't really care about how the world falls out. I'm curious, yes, but hints would have worked fine. The way in which I feel the ending was rushed is that we don't have any character moments. Like Nyneave talking about Egwene with someone and saying she will honor her memory by working towards her goals of uniting all channelers. Something like that. We just get BOOM, done. I don't wants pages and pages of it, just a few reactions for a tiny bit of closure.

The book has almost no character moments.

I mean, do you realise that there's no Rand/Perrin/Mat scene. At all. Hell, I don't even think there's a Rand/Perrin scene. There's no Rand/Min scenes at all either. Almost nothing from Nynaeve and Moraine and Cadsuane. Nothing really from Siuane. And the list goes on and on.

I think the close-out works well enough and I think it would have felt fine if BS had taken the time to touch on each of the major characters one last time.

[Shryke]

Ha, we /are/ putting something into it. We are fucking reading it. I'm not going to fucking study the goddamn thing though. Nor am I going to get bent out of shape with theories, botched back stories, and what the author was thinking debates. Call me superficial, but i'd be willing to bet we've read the same fucking books, and have derived the same amount of joy from them, with out me putting in as much effort.

How closely are you reading it though? Cause all your posts seem to indicate not very, considering how much contempt you are throwing out for the idea.

Like, I don't get how a guy who claims to like Gene Wolfe doesn't get the idea that you have put some effort into reading a book to get the most out of it.

[Guy Kilmore]

Exactly.

(well, I've never seen Sopranos, so the other thing :P)

Sopranos Spoiler

Tony Soprano (Main Character), Carmella (his wife, another main character), and his daughter (Forgot her name, another main character) go into a diner and order dinner. Tony starts eating french fries and it fades to black. All plot lines, arcs, consequences, everything just done. I think it was because the creator, Chase something or other, just didn't know how to wrap things up and felt a lot of pressure. It marred an otherwise really interesting show.

[Gertrude]

The book has almost no character moments.

Oh yes, well aware. I would have preferred to see more character moments throughout, no doubt, but I was just commenting specifically on the end.

eta: actually - it seems like you are agreeing with me in a disagreeing tone of voice?

[Shryke]

Oh yes, well aware. I would have preferred to see more character moments throughout, no doubt, but I was just commenting specifically on the end.

eta: actually - it seems like you are agreeing with me in a disagreeing tone of voice?

Was trying to just agree with you. :P

I think open-ended works fine. But I think you need a send-off of sorts for your characters.

[Gertrude]

Agreed.

:cheers:

[Ereinion]

How closely are you reading it though? Cause all your posts seem to indicate not very, considering how much contempt you are throwing out for the idea.

Like, I don't get how a guy who claims to like Gene Wolfe doesn't get the idea that you have put some effort into reading a book to get the most out of it.

I think I have the same problem as some other people here have. I love Gene Wolfe as well, and enjoy Jordan, but I put a lot more effort into reading Wolfe than Jordan. Jordan is just a pulp-read for me when I'm tired after a day of work and want some easy entertainment. I read Wolfe when I have the time and energy to read some serious literature.

In Gene Wolfe it takes a lot of work to sometimes even understand what is going on, what themes he is handling, what he is alluding to etc. Spending a lot of work on Jordan could certainly pay off for some people, but It would pay off in a completely different way than with Wolfe. I'm honestly not that interested in the backstories of poorly developed side characters, or long theories about who killed who. I can understand how some people could really love that, but that's not what I'm looking for in a Robert Jordan novel. Of a lot of the side characters in WOT I can barely remember their name, let alone what they were doing, so I honestly couldn't care less that they didn't get closure in AMOL, I had a hard enough time emotionally connecting to the main characters, let alone to all those Aes Sedai of Windfinders.

[Maia]

To be fair, after, say, ACoS it was a lot more fun to discuss the novels and try to predict what was going to happen and how seemingly insignificant plot-lines and minor characters were going to figure into it than to read the actual books ;). Now, I am not sure that it brings much, really. One can admire the complicated foreshadowings in the early books, perhaps... Or something.

In any case, yup, massive, massive bloat in the second half of the series, _and_ allocation of space to the more boring and ultimately unnecessary story-lines, while the more interesting stuff got the short end of the stick.

To be fair, I am afraid of the same happening to ASOIAF, alas. There are signs of bloat in the last 2 volumes and problematic inability to move the time-line at a decent clip, which brings up the shades of CoT :(.