Rereading Tyrion V (ASOS-ADWD)

[Uncat]

Oh, good stuff! I did have the feeling that he's been waddling more recently

ok, the idea that tyrion was too busy to be self-absorbed works for me. :)

ETA The lieutenant Columbo approach to posting here, oh, just one more thing...

Illyn Payne draws his sword for Joffrey and Margaery to cut open the yummy pigeon pie. Is this just so GRRM can show us that Sansa notices that Ice is missing or do you think there is a bit of doom and gloom symbolism there with the sword of the sword of the royal headsman used for decapitating many a criminal used at this fatal feast?

Loooooots. Who would order a headman to cut his cake with his tool of trade? Though military officers once had the habit to cut their wedding cake with their swords (and may still have it). But while today that sword is just a flashy toy, back in the days chances were good, that they allready cut people open with the very same sword and no one seems to have bothered with this. But then those are the swords of heros while Ser Ilyn's sword is a headsman's sword and the headman is usally feared and kind of untouchable.

I would love to know who had that idea. Cersei? Jeoffry? Or is it some kind of joke, Littlefinger made? What he pulled since leaving for the Vale is an absolute masterpiece and he knows it: Getting the Vale, freeing and kidnapping Sansa, helping the Tyrells to get rid of Jeoffry. It would look like him, the Lord of the Mockingbird to plant the idea of having Ilyn cut the cake in someones head (Jeoffrys, I imagine and just the way he did it with the josting dwarfs). The headman cuts the pye and marks this wedding as dead befor it even got a chance to live. Just the kind of unnescesary mark, the vain Mockingbird would love to set. And now I'll stop before I completly lose my track.

[Uncat]

Part of Tyrion's success in Clash may have been that for once he feels valued as a Son. Cersei has messed up and Tywin in a round about fashion makes it clear that he wants Tyrion safely in KL, because he is the only son he has with Jaime captured. Tyrion is given a position of trust and value and also feels with Shae that he has the girl. Varys makes a terrific job of seeming to be his friend and Tyrion also as Bronn and his Mountain Clans as support. He does not feel insecure at this point so the navel gazing is not an issue to a degree. It is quite possible that he was deluding himself that he would remain the Hand of the Throne, or that somehow he hoped his father would be so impressed that he would remain in his position.

As it was he retained a position of great power as master of the coin, but became a child at the behest of his father again. Despite the fact that he is aware that Cersei is supposedly superior to Tywin, she seems to caplitulate to his wihes, yet he doesn't notice that he always aquieses to his father as well. He is desperate to achive his father's regard and yet that is almost impossible as in his father's presence both he and Cersei revert to roles they learned as children. There is a familial discord that unites the Lannisters in a cacophany of disharmony. Their are poster book for a disfunctional family.

By the Wedding, Tyrion has fallen into the role of the "dissapointment son" (or the Gob Bluth of the Lannisters), and is drowning his sorrows. Actually given how much Tyrion is drinking, how impared is his judgement? Not just at the night of Joff's wedding, but given the events following the three months since the battle of black water was he moving towards being a functioning alcoholic?

To give another real life example, but the other way round. Winston Churchill was a fantastic wartime PM, but was useless in peace time.

Yeap I remember singing that. To be honest I was always more intrigued by the maid who has her nose pecked off at the end of the song. Actually is it just me or do most British things have something gruesome at the root of them (you should look up the origin of Sweet F A, or Mary Mary Quite Contrary, as other charming examples).Although to give those across the pond their due, Lizzy Borden is a particularly gruesome rhyme.

Thank you, I looked it up and basically surmised that like most of Europe's problems, when it all boiled down to it, it was the fault of the French. :box:

On another note, I love that people talk of Westeros putting their differences behind them when we still have a certain two fingered salute that stems from the Battle of Agincourt and a small rivalry to this day.

Ohh, Rapsie, so sorry! Here I sit gloating about the grand insights I had this afternoon and now, while catching up with the threat post by post, I find, that you have had them before me and certainly will cry out "that thieving Uncat stole my thoughts" Please forgive me.

[Lummel]

... But then those are the swords of heros while Ser Ilyn's sword is a headsman's sword and the headman is usally feared and kind of untouchable.

I would love to know who had that idea. Cersei? Jeoffry? Or is it some kind of joke, Littlefinger made? ...

Yes, I found this really strange on reflection. The sword that has decapitated criminals now cuts open the wedding pie. It's a really grisly image!

[Kittykatknits]

Somewhat off topic but I've always thought that the cultural differences we see between the North and South in Westeros had a bit of a post American Civil War feel. The sense of Nationalism then was loyalty to each State rather than the country as a whole which is a limited fuedal parallel. Even the army was composed of units from individual States unlike now. Robert E. Lee went with the South because Virginia did, not out of any affinity for the Confederacy or its cause much like personal loyalty trumps politics in Westeros. Arlington Cemetery is a bit of a Rains of Castamere on his old estate with a mix of Artos Stark making the Nights Watch bury the dead. We see a similar resentment to Reconstruction in places like the Riverlands where vassals have a grudging fealty to their newly imposed lords.

Dorne and The North have a bit more of a Texas First attitude. They have historically been more unified political entities where the borders of the other kingdoms have shifted far more in the past. Dorne stands out in that they have First Men, Andals, and the Rhoynish that seem to have integrated and unified in a way that the Seven Kingdoms have not. Even the smallfolk of Sunspear want the Sand Snakes released and revenge for Oberyn which is a contrast to the indifference Arya finds in Harrenhal. The idea of Tyrion taking Sansa North to rule Winterfell definitely has a "carpetbagger" feel to it. Far more political similarity than historical but the decentralized sense of loyalty and regional differences results in a similar dynamic and we see some of those strong grudges play out.

Sorry for going off topic again folks, but I was thinking about this last night and want to add to it.

Some of the resentment towards reconstruction lingers today although the specifics of it have changed. But, there is a strong sentiment on a local approach or states rights versus those of the national government that still remain within the southern states. The war ended over 150 years ago so I do wonder if it could take quite some time for the Riverlands to happily assimilate back in to the rest of Westeros. The impression I got from Feast and Dance is that they may no longer be up in arms but they were far from mollified.

Tywin's tactics with the Riverlands at the start of the war are a bit likes Sherman's march to Atlanta. His policy here was to burn and destroy everything in the army's path in an effort to break the population's will to continue fighting. He destroyed crops, homes, towns. The army did rape and pillage as it went along although nowhere to the degree of what we've seen in the books. As a response, the Confederate forces destroyed all their munitions and anything else that could be used by the Union army prior to their retreat. It's a bit like the Blackfish who picked the countryside bare in order to prepare for the siege of Riverrun he knew would be coming.

I thought about some comparisons between Harrenhal and Andersonville but figured that was stretching it a bit too far. For the most part the similarities here are a bit superficial but I enjoyed the exploration. Robb's act was an attempt to succeed from the union of the 7 kingdoms really in order to form his own country so it would make sense that we do see some parallels.

....and now back on topic everyone

[Uncat]

On the being and doing business with a glimps forward to ADWD. There, in ADWD the Theon chapters establish a theme for Theon: you have to know, how you are. But that theme works for all characters in the book and very much for Tyrion. Theon regains the ability to act, when he regains his certainty about who he is. The same goes for Tyrion. When we first meet him, he lives by playing along assumed identities which other offer him or impose on him. This peeks In Clash,, when he thinks, he finaly can be who he thinks to know, he is. But he is wrong there, as his father tells him right at the start of Storm. So he has to figure out, who he is, in order to be able to act again. Theons mantra is pretty much Tyrions job. You have know, who you are. Heck, it really is kind of a leitmotiv for the whole series and Theon is only the one to spell it out.

(And completly off threat: Interestingly enough, Arya follows it in reverse gear: You have to forget, who you are. But wrong threat, here.)

Edit and even more off threat: It is the leitmotif, because the Starks will really need to find out, who they are, when Winter comes. But now I'm so far off threat, that I can't even see the threat anymore

[1234567]

Ohh, Rapsie, so sorry! Here I sit gloating about the grand insights I had this afternoon and now, while catching up with the threat post by post, I find, that you have had them before me and certainly will cry out "that thieving Uncat stole my thoughts" Please forgive me.

:tantrum: He he he, Actually I thought you phrased it so much better.

Yes, I found this really strange on reflection. The sword that has decapitated criminals now cuts open the wedding pie. It's a really grisly image!

The thing is that is the Stark's sword...only it isn't. Apart from being just another kick in the teeth for the Starks, there is the imagery of the executioner. For all intents and purposes the death dealing sword is a Stark, but the truth is it is not the excectioners blade. This imagery ties into Joff's death as Sansa will be also blamed as being the excecutioner of Joff, but the real blade was elsewhere in the room.

[butterbumps!]

Tyrion IX

overview

The chapter opens with an imprisoned Tyrion discussing his upcoming trial with Kevan. Tywin will be presiding, but has asked Mace and Oberyn to sit in judgment with him, as a way to make the justice appear more objective. Kevan shatters Tyrion’s hopes of trial-by-combat by letting him know that Cersei has chosen Gregor as her champion. Unable to think of witnesses to stand for him, Tyrion requests Kevan to send Pod. Before Kevan leaves, Tyrion poignantly tells his uncle that he’s innocent, but Kevan doesn’t seem to believe him.

When Pod arrives, Tyrion commands him to find Bronn. In the meantime, Tyrion muses on what had actually happened to Joff. The next day Kevan visits again, pressuring Tyrion to think of witnesses, letting him know that Cersei has been producing an endless list of her own. Tyrion’s only witness is Sansa, and Kevan promises him that if they can find her, they will bring her. After he leaves, Pod and Bronn finally show up. Tyrion tries to bribe Bronn into fighting for him against Gregor, but their exchange reveals that he’s already been bought by Cersei; Bronn won’t defend Tyrion, as it’s a lose-lose situation for him. Two more days go by with Tyrion in isolation, punctuated only by Kevan’s periodic reminders to produce witnesses.

Finally, the morning of the trial arrives, and Tyrion is escorted to the Hall. The members of the Kingsguard testify against Tyrion, each testimony more damning than the last. The theme of this days’ witnesses is “Tyrion the monster,” as these testimonies serve to set up Tyrion as a violent freak with motive. After the day’s hearings, Tyrion asks Kevan to send Varys.

The next day, the theme revolves around proving that the cause of death was poison, then putting the poison in Tyrion’s hand. The masters Ballabar and Frenken have done an autopsy on Joff and concluded the CoD is homicide by poisoning. Pycelle testifies that Tyrion had stolen his poisons in the past, and then an endless parade of wedding guest testify that they witnessed Tyrion serving the King poisoned wine.

That night, it’s clear that Kevan believes Tyrion is guilty, and urges him to confess. He waxes poetic about Tywin’s “graciousness,” and informs Tyrion that his father will grant mercy and send him to the Wall should he proffer a confession. Tyrion promises him he will think on it after Kevan informs him that Sansa is still missing and that Varys will be testifying against him.

The next day of Cersei’s witnesses is Varys, whose testimony is so long and detailed it monopolizes the entire day. The purpose of this testimony is to corroborate the stories of all of the preceding witnesses by a seemingly impartial party. Varys produces transcripts of overheard conversations and other damning “evidence,” making it seem that the case against Tyrion is air-tight. There will be one more surprise witness the following day.

That night, Tyrion is visited by Oberyn, who says he believes the case against Tyrion is so complete, he wonders if Tyrion might be innocent of this after all. He also reveals that Tyrion’s conviction was something of a relief to him, given that as a Viper known for poisons, it could have easily been him in the interrogation chair. He offers Tyrion a chance of hope; he will fight as Tyrion’s champion should he choose trial-by-combat against Gregor.

analysis

All the ghosts of Tyrion’s past emerge in this chapter. All of the opportunities he’d missed come back to haunt him: his rejection of marriage to Lollys leaves an open piece for Cersei to use to her advantage; his marriage to Sansa ensnares him by virtue of the fact that his guilt is tied to hers.

Kevan and Tyrion: “I did not do this”

At various points in Tyrion’s current trial, he tries to employ the same tactics that worked for him in the Vale. Back in the Vale, the trial by battle was the product of Tyrion’s quick thinking after verbally backing Lysa into a corner. He had used his wits to produce a disingenuous and humorous confession full of non-sequitors, and orchestrated the dialogue such that trial by battle would put a quick end to it.

For the current trial, Tyrion’s first thought for defense is trial by battle, which I find odd. The first time, trial by battle was a product of feeling out the situation strategically, and seeing an opening. This time, Tyrion jumps to the battle solution before attempting to use argument and logic first, which is what strikes me as odd, or at least, unusually hamfisted. When Kevan reveals that Cersei has declared Gregor her champion in the event of trial by battle, Tyrion thinks: “The bitch checks my moves before I make them.” Is this really so surprising though, given that this is the exact same stunt that Tyrion used to get out of the Vale? I think that Tyrion’s thought process here reveals a bit of regression or stagnation from earlier chapters. Where once he vowed, “I like living,” and made certain to save his hide at any cost, it seems he’s shut down hope, and is subsequently not thinking in the same creative or strategic ways he had previously.

Before his uncle leaves him, Tyrion makes a point of telling Kevan he’s innocent. Sadly for Tyrion, Kevan doesn’t believe him. A shadow of numbness and futility hangs over this chapter, intensified by the fact that not even his uncle believes in Tyrion’s innocence.

Tyrion alone: “One flesh, one heart, one soul”

Tyrion can’t think of any names to put on his witness list, but finally writes Sansa’s name through gritted teeth. He attempts to logically reconstruct the poisoning at the wedding, concluding that Sansa had both opportunity and ample motive. Further, the fact that she vanished immediately afterwards has eliminated any doubt; he believes she’s behind it. Yet, he realizes that she couldn’t have operated alone; she had no access to the poison required.

It’s interesting that Tyrion doesn’t try to pursue that line of thought. He knows someone poisoned Joffrey, he knows he’s innocent, but doesn’t seem to have the effort to put together the pieces. There’s man notorious for poison at this event who had motive, and he has strong suspicions of Sansa’s involvement. Yet, he doesn’t try to think through either of these suspects thoroughly.

Even though we know he’s on to something with Sansa, he won’t go too far down that path in his thoughts because it would tie him to the murder as well. I don’t believe that Tyrion would have ever pieced together the truth of it, but I do wonder if he allowed himself to truly think over possibilities, whether he might have come to suspect either the Tyrells or Oberyn.

Convinced of Sansa’s guilt, he says the same words Sansa thought in her last chapter (“one flesh, one heart, one soul”), and thinks bitterly on Sansa’s treatment of their marriage vows: “She wasted no time proving how much those vows meant to her, did she? Well, what did you expect, dwarf?” By self-deprecatingly calling himself dwarf, it seems that Tyrion places the reason for Sansa’s departure on his disfigurement; I think Tyrion tends to believe that all of his problems stem from his dwarfism, and I think it functions as a means of avoiding the bigger issues.

In truth, Tyrion married Sansa knowing that it was part of a plan to erase her family from their ancestral seat, supplanting them with Lannisters, the House that has abused the Starks for the last 2 years. Chalking up the reason for Sansa’s vanishing to dwarfism is really missing the point, to put it mildly. In fact, a few paragraphs later he tries to bribe Bronn with the promise of Northern lands based on his claim of Winterfell through Sansa. Somehow, I don’t think Tyrion’s dwarfism has all that much to do with why Sansa thought little of these marriage vows.

Tyrion + Bronn: “an insolent, black-hearted rogue”

Tyrion pins his hopes for a champion on Bronn, who finally deigns to see him after much prodding. One thing of interest in this exchange is that the issue of Tyrion’s innocence is never brought up. After the trial in the Vale, Bronn asked if Tyrion had been guilty, and Tyrion truthfully answered. It seems that Tyrion is either unconcerned with what Bronn thinks, as well as the fact that the men have an understanding that the truth will have no impact on whether Bronn champions him.

The Bronn we see here is much changed from the sellsword in the Vale. We saw Bronn transforming into something more patrician throughout, culminating here with fine clothes, a knighthood, and a marriage to Lollys. Tyrion realizes that the marriage to Lollys is his sister’s work, and tries to talk Bronn out of it. Bronn is not moved, however, and asks Tyrion if he can match Cersei’s marriage and minor lordship. Tyrion can’t come up with any, and tries to bribe him with gold and gratitude. However, Bronn can get more from Cersei than Tyrion now, and it becomes clear that whatever advantage Tyrion had in the past is long gone.

Tyrion tries to bribe Bronn with northern lands: “My lady wife is heir to Winterfell. Should I emerge from this with my head still on my shoulders, I may one day rule the North in her name. I could carve you out a big piece of it.” Lovely. Bronn rejects this offer anyway, as it seems uncertain of coming to fruition. After a last-ditch effort appeal to Bronn’s pride, he gives Tyrion a firm “no:” “Either the Mountain spills my guts, or I kill him and lose Stokeworth. I sell my sword, I don’t give it away. I’m not your bloody brother.”

Kingsguard trial: Presentation of monstrosity and motive

The trial begins and Tyrion is brought before the three judges to ask how he will plead. Tyrion claims innocence. When asked whether Sansa had a hand in the poisoning, Tyrion thinks, “Wherever Sansa was and whatever her part in this might have been, she remained his wife. He’d wrapped the cloak of his protection about her shoulders, though he’d had to stand on a fool’s back to do it.” However, Tyrion doesn’t state Sansa’s innocence, but rather deflects the question: “The gods killed Joffrey. He choked on his pigeon pie.” At first glance, this looks like an altruistic gesture, but it is completely self-serving. He believes that Sansa is guilty, but won’t accuse her because of the fact that it will be condemning himself simultaneously given that they are married.

Twice during the Kingsguard testimony, Tyrion loses his temper and interrupts. As a practical question, I’m unclear about the rules of cross-examination here. It seems a Westerosi trial involves the presentation of the prosecution’s witnesses, then a presentation of the defendant’s witnesses; without lawyers, only the judges ask questions. However, I do find it odd that Tyrion makes no motion to attempt to cross-examine these witnesses. He was silenced for speaking out of turn and rising to anger; is there a chance that he could have asked permission to ask the witnesses questions? That would be precisely the sort of dialogue that Tyrion excels at, and would have likely helped his case.

Autopsy trial: Confirmation of CoD as poison

Tyrion does attempt to question Pycelle with a more measured tone. It’s only after he rises to anger (at a particularly infuriating statement by Pycelle, admittedly) that Tywin steps in to silence Tyrion, leading me to wonder whether Tyrion could have made progress in further questioning had he only kept his cool. When the endless parade of witnesses follow the masters, Tyrion wonders, “When did I make so many enemies?” In truth, I believe many of these witnesses were bought, especially one Lady Merryweather who swears she saw Tyrion put the poison into the chalice.

Kevan + Tyrion: “[Tywin] no harder than he’s had to be”

After the autopsy trial, Kevan is convinced of Tyrion’s guilt. Tyrion asks what evidence convinced him, and Kevan cites the fact that Tyrion had stolen poison, and that Lady Merryweather saw him place it. Ordinarily, Tyrion would have asked questions of logic to his accusors: “Why would I poison Joffrey while everyone was watching and stand around while he was dying?” “Why did I not try to escape if I were guilty?”

Kevan gifts us with some excellent Tywin propaganda in an effort to convince Tyrion to confess. Tyrion does not trust that Tywin will grant him the Black in the event of confession, given the fact that Tywin has recently disavowed him as a son. Kevan rationalizes all of Tywin’s seemingly hard behavior: “he’s no harder than he has had to be.” According to Kevan, Tytos was amiable but weak, mocking and defying him. Even the mistress “stole,” taking their deceased mother’s jewels for herself.

“It fell to Tywin to restore House Lannister to its proper place. Just as it fell to him to rule this realm, when he was no more than twenty…Instead of the honor he deserved, he was made to suffer slights beyond count, yet he gave the Seven kingdoms peace, plenty, and justice. He is a just man. You would be wise to trust him.”

I question whether the “hardness” Tywin has exacted is in reasonable proportion to the supposed crimes against him. Even if Tywin did rule as Hand well, it has no bearing on how he reacts when the problems and insults are directed at his House. Despite Kevan’s pro-Tywin speech, this trial and sentencing is unchartered territory in terms of how Tywin may behave.

Tyrion + Oberyn: “No. Did you?”

Oberyn visits Tyrion after Varys “confirms” all of the previous testimonies. He lets Tyrion know that Cersei is trying to buy his vote, hinting that she will offer herself as the prize. Sweet as the prospect of marriage to Cersei may be, Oberyn is looking for something else:

“When the Young Dragon conquered Dorne so long ago, he left the Lord of Highgarden to rule us after the Submission of Sunspear. This Tyrell moved with his tail from keep to keep, chasing rebels and making certain that our knees stayed bent. He would arrive in force, take a castle for his own, stay a moon’s turn, and ride on to the next castle. It was his custom to turn the lords out of their own chambers and take their beds for himself. One night he found himself beneath a heavy velvet canopy. A sash hung down near the pillows, should he wish to summon a wench. He had a taste for Dornish women, this Lord Tyrell, and who can blame him? So he pulled upon the sash, and when he did the canopy above him split open, and a hundred red scorpions fell down upon his head. His death lit a fire that soon swept across Dorne, undoing all the Young Dragon’s victories in a fortnight. The kneeling men stood up, and we were free again.”

“I know the tale,” said Tyrion. “What of it?”

“Just this. If I should ever find a sash beside my own bed, and pull on it, I would sooner have the scorpions fall upon me than the queen in all her naked beauty.”

Oberyn tells Tyrion he’s relieved that Tyrion stands accused and gives three strong arguments for motive: 1. He’s known for poisons, 2. History of conflict with the Tyrells, 3. Dornish succession laws place Myrcella as Queen, who happens to be in Dornish custody. Oberyn plants the suggestion that perhaps the Dornish want to see the Lannisters internally split between Tommen and Myrcella’s claim, and he questions whether Tyrion believes Cersei would fight for Myrcella. Tyrion is unsure whether Cersei would, but is sure that she won’t as long as Tywin is around.

Oberyn enigmatically suggests that Tywin won’t live forever, and Tyrion recalls why the Dornishman is actually here: justice. Oberyn tries to get truth from Tyrion regarding Tywin’s culpability in Elia’s murder. Tyrion confesses that Gregor did the deed and raped her beforehand, but denies his father’s involvement: “He spoke the lie without hesitation, and never stopped to ask himself why he should.” Oberyn offers to champion Tyrion, more for his own ends than for the accused’s.

[Fire Eater]

"Is it two wives you want or two castles?"[Tyrion to Bronn]

Bronn was probably one of the claimants to Rosby. This foreshadows Tyrion giving Bronn Rosby along with Stokeworth.

"I sell my sword I don't give it away. I am not your bloody brother"

This foreshadows Jaime giving his sword, Oathkeeper, to Brienne.

"His truths you mean," Cersei said. "Father, I beg you to put him in fetters, for your own protection. You see how he is."

"For your own protection," foreshadowing Tyrion killing Tywin. Cersei also seems to genuinely show some fear towards Tyrion, and this is resulting from Joffrey's death.

[Elba the Intoner]

Kevan and Tyrion: “I did not do this”

At various points in Tyrion’s current trial, he tries to employ the same tactics that worked for him in the Vale. Back in the Vale, the trial by battle was the product of Tyrion’s quick thinking after verbally backing Lysa into a corner. He had used his wits to produce a disingenuous and humorous confession full of non-sequitors, and orchestrated the dialogue such that trial by battle would put a quick end to it.

For the current trial, Tyrion’s first thought for defense is trial by battle, which I find odd. The first time, trial by battle was a product of feeling out the situation strategically, and seeing an opening. This time, Tyrion jumps to the battle solution before attempting to use argument and logic first, which is what strikes me as odd, or at least, unusually hamfisted. When Kevan reveals that Cersei has declared Gregor her champion in the event of trial by battle, Tyrion thinks: “The bitch checks my moves before I make them.” Is this really so surprising though, given that this is the exact same stunt that Tyrion used to get out of the Vale? I think that Tyrion’s thought process here reveals a bit of regression or stagnation from earlier chapters. Where once he vowed, “I like living,” and made certain to save his hide at any cost, it seems he’s shut down hope, and is subsequently not thinking in the same creative or strategic ways he had previously.

Yes it seems like Tyrion has been on this path where he cannot function well because of his internal woe is me monologue and this chapter seems like the real culmination of that ineffectiveness. This time it's the opposite of what we saw of him in the Vale. In the Vale he made a risky move in hoping Bronn would champion him, but it was based on his observations and keen insights of what he had seen of Bronn as they traveled. Similarly, Tyrion could have seen early on what Oberyn comes right out and tells him, that Oberyn could have just as easily been a suspect. Tyrion could have made an ally out of Oberyn from the start.

So, I once saw someone ask this question in another thread a while ago and I never saw an answer to it so I am asking it again here. Why can Cersei name Gregor as her champion this time whereas she can't do so later when she is seized by the High Septon? I can't figure this out. Is it just an inconsistency? Is it because technically the champion would be for he son? But he was the King so shouldn't it only be a Kingsguard member that she can choose as champion?

[Kittykatknits]

So, I once saw someone ask this question in another thread a while ago and I never saw an answer to it so I am asking it again here. Why can Cersei name Gregor as her champion this time whereas she can't do so later when she is seized by the High Septon? I can't figure this out. Is it just an inconsistency? Is it because technically the champion would be for he son? But he was the King so shouldn't it only be a Kingsguard member that she can choose as champion?

I've wondered this before and don't have a good answer. The only thing I can come up with is that Cersei didn't have a reason to care about this rule for Tyrion's trial here. Later it works to her advantage with Marg but bites her with the HS. Not a good answer though and not necessarily the right one either. Maybe someone else will have better insight.

[Ragnorak]

Great job, Butterbumps.

I think Kevan is sincere, honest, and represents a decent sense of family for the most part. He is clearly loyal to his brother as head of the family and the fact that Tyrion is his nephew matters to him even though he believes Tyrion is guilty. I do think his belief that Tyrion is guilty tells us that Tywin has decided he will be found guilty (as if letting Cersei bribe witnesses like Bronn with marriages and lands wasn't proof enough.) I don't subscribe to Kevan's view of Tywin at all but I think he's sincere. The most obvious distortion is

Even his mistress stole from him. A woman scarcely one step above a whore, and she helped herself to my mother’s jewels!

The woman wore them in public and was living in Casterly Rock. Somehow I imagine even Tytos would have noticed if she was wearing his former wife's stolen jewels. Tytos clearly gave them to her or at the very least gave her permission to wear them. I similarly doubt Shae stole the golden hand necklace. I think the rest of his Tywin evaluation is as tainted.

I wish we had another POV during this trial. Pycelle is just over the top with his "noblest child the gods ever put on this good earth." Some saw Joffrey's behavior at the breakfast and everyone in attendance here saw his behavior at the wedding. Joffrey didn't exactly lack a public reputation either. The clear message from the tone of the witnesses is that the powers that be have condemned Tyrion. I wonder how many people actually believe it and who they really suspect if they don't-- and if anyone who thinks Tyrion did it isn't damn grateful for it.

Varys is smelling of rosewater. Who is he really serving with his testimony here? Bronn and his comments about how much more pliable Tommen would be comes up again.

Oberyn is not just astute but he has been doing his homework.

“I have turned up that golden-haired whore I was hoping for.”

“So you found Chataya’s?”

“At Chataya’s I bedded the black-skinned girl. Alayaya, I believe she is called. Exquisite, despite the stripes on her back. But the whore I referred to is your sister.”

That says it all. Not only does he know the entire backstory of her whipping but even his being fond of whores is a pretext on this trip-- everything is about the justice being served. As far as the "Oberyn poisoned Tywin theory" goes the conversation about crowning Myrcella is a bit of a strike against it. Forcing Tywin to choose-- publicly on the world stage-- between his son and daughter and his grandson and granddaughter at the same time fits very well with the stated goal of taking everything from him before killing him. I happen to like the idea that Oberyn stepped into the ring with an insurance policy knowing if he lived or died he still won. I also love this post about revenge and the Dornishman's wife by Tagganaro and think it rings so true for Oberyn here. Despite some emotional attachment to the poison theory I think the Lannister Civil War plan Oberyn lays out here points in a different direction.

The Gregor as champion here has always bothered me a bit too. I would assume the disntinction is that Tyrion is the accused so the trial is about him. While Joffrey is the "victim" all justice is the King's justice so his involvement doesn't invoke the KG rule anymore than any other trial would since the King is always technically the victim. It is only the accused that matters. Or at least that's the reasoning I would make up if I had to explain it.

[Uncat]

:tantrum: He he he, Actually I thought you phrased it so much better.

... just as I thought about yours :D

The thing is that is the Stark's sword...only it isn't. Apart from being just another kick in the teeth for the Starks, there is the imagery of the executioner. For all intents and purposes the death dealing sword is a Stark, but the truth is it is not the excectioners blade. This imagery ties into Joff's death as Sansa will be also blamed as being the excecutioner of Joff, but the real blade was elsewhere in the room.

Wow, didn't see that and certainly am not going to steal it.

[Uncat]

Yes it seems like Tyrion has been on this path where he cannot function well because of his internal woe is me monologue and this chapter seems like the real culmination of that ineffectiveness. This time it's the opposite of what we saw of him in the Vale. In the Vale he made a risky move in hoping Bronn would champion him, but it was based on his observations and keen insights of what he had seen of Bronn as they traveled. Similarly, Tyrion could have seen early on what Oberyn comes right out and tells him, that Oberyn could have just as easily been a suspect. Tyrion could have made an ally out of Oberyn from the start.

So, I once saw someone ask this question in another thread a while ago and I never saw an answer to it so I am asking it again here. Why can Cersei name Gregor as her champion this time whereas she can't do so later when she is seized by the High Septon? I can't figure this out. Is it just an inconsistency? Is it because technically the champion would be for he son? But he was the King so shouldn't it only be a Kingsguard member that she can choose as champion?

My guess: If it isn't an inconsitancy - which it might very well be - it is because of her role in the trial.

In her own trial, she is accused and her life and integrety needs to be defended - which would be the Kingsguard's job. Because, if the champion fails, she will die. On Tyrions trial she is the accusing party. If her champion fails, well he failed and Tyrions walks. So her live is not at stakes her. The Queen is not threatened and thus has the liberty to choose whoever she wants.

This may not make sense in the light of what we understand to be a fair trial but in the logic of this medieval world it makes a lot of sense. The Kingsguard are supposed to protect the king and by extension the queen. Now the queen's honnor is questioned and her live in the balance. This calls for a champion who is bound by honnor to protecting her.

[A wilding]

Nice catch about Tyrion deluding himself about the reasons Sansa fled.

I also have always been stuck by how defeated Tyrion was in this chapter. His usual ingenuity and wits have quite deserted him. I would have expected him to make a good case that justice requires him to be able to cross examine witnesses, but it does not even seem able to do that, instead losing his temper - and how often does he do that normally? I would put it partly down to the shock of his entire family publicly turning against him, throwing him out of the magic circle of Lannisterdom for the first time.

I think Tyrion had already suspected Sansa of the murder before this chapter. I see no other reason why he should have poured the dregs of the wine on the floor afterwards, though frustratingly we are only told that he "thought for a moment" before doing it.

The key minor witness in the trial is probably Lady Merryweather. Her little lie, that she actually saw Tyrion poison the wine, is the capstone of the evidence on day two. It seems odd to me that Tyrion put so little emphasis on it, but I suppose his state of mind justifies it.

I have never seen any difficulty with Gregor acting as Cersei's champion. As said above, her life and honour are not at stake as she is the accuser not the accused. If Gregor loses, she will simply have been wrong about Tyrion's guilt.

[Blisscraft]

BB - Brilliant! Wonderful analysis. A couple of other points I really liked, Fire Eater's note about Bronn's selling his sword and not giving it away like Jaime and its foreshadowing to Brienne. Although, I had a very wicked thought about the same comment. I thought that Bronn was eluding to the fact that Jaime gave his "sword" (ahem) to Cersei, rather than sell it in marriage to someone else. Also, Ragnorak, great catch on Varys smelling of "rosewater." Nice.

Off to reread. . .

[Silverin]

You know talking about tyrions past actions and how they led him here, or parallels that show in here:

- In Clash he makes an unneccessary enemy out of Pycelle. At that time he feels that he won a big victory, but he knew that Pycelle is a Lanister men, and it is not him he should be hunting.. Just like that Pycelle got his job back.

- Joffrey: his times he was hostile to Joffrey, all the cool tyrion slapping bastard Joffrey, and his threats about Tomenn Joff lead to the point where people believed he would do it.

- Antler Men: They were people who didn't recieve any trial. Based on Varys tyrion sentenced all of them to die and gave them over to Joffrey. We later learn all of them had debts toward the throne, whcih now cannot be collected, and this, and this further bankrupts the Throne. Lets see compared to that here tyrion has a trial, there are multiple vitness (granted there are fakes among them as well). he later has a chance for a trial by combat, and he has the chance to take the black as well.

- Taena Merrywether, does she work for LF? She is clearly one of the key witnesses who point the blame to tyrion. And we are still not sure wether the Tyrells wanted to frame tyrion, or it was simply LFs role. They definietly don't work together compeletly, after all it was LF who informed Tywin, about the Sansa/Wyllas marriage plans. Wonder wheter the Tyrells know that that they were double crossed by him.

I am sure a lot of you can make much better essays but it is interesting to see that how the "witnesses" are there because of tyrions past actions.

[Kittykatknits]

BB, wonderful analysis as always!

I'm somewhat embarrassed to admit this but it turns out my daughter's viewing choices have influenced how I see certain scenes within this story. It hit me that this chapter reminded me somewhat of Scrooge McDuck where the ghost of his past literally come back to haunt him. This chapter leaves me with the same feeling. In his cell, conversations with others, and during the trial, everything Tyrion has said or done is up for examination and judgment.

He kept his relationship with Bronn as a transaction one and then found himself losing when he is outbid. His relationship with Shae was based on a lie and nothing more. He chose to marry Sansa who "abandoned her vows" than someone else who might have stood as witness for him. He had threatened the life of Tommen back in Clash, his own nephew. He hit Joffrey in full view of others and threatened to turn Cersei's joy to ashes. More than this, it's his sudden inability to think, maneuver, or plan. He says that his mind is his weapon but he seems completely incapable of using it.

Earlier in the series Tyrion tells us it all goes back and back to their fathers. With the trial, it all goes back and back to his past. And the ghosts of his past are haunting him.

[butterbumps!]

BB, wonderful analysis as always!

I'm somewhat embarrassed to admit this but it turns out my daughter's viewing choices have influenced how I see certain scenes within this story. It hit me that this chapter reminded me somewhat of Scrooge McDuck where the ghost of his past literally come back to haunt him. This chapter leaves me with the same feeling. In his cell, conversations with others, and during the trial, everything Tyrion has said or done is up for examination and judgment.

He kept his relationship with Bronn as a transaction one and then found himself losing when he is outbid. His relationship with Shae was based on a lie and nothing more. He chose to marry Sansa who "abandoned her vows" than someone else who might have stood as witness for him. He had threatened the life of Tommen back in Clash, his own nephew. He hit Joffrey in full view of others and threatened to turn Cersei's joy to ashes. More than this, it's his sudden inability to think, maneuver, or plan. He says that his mind is his weapon but he seems completely incapable of using it.

Earlier in the series Tyrion tells us it all goes back and back to their fathers. With the trial, it all goes back and back to his past. And the ghosts of his past are haunting him.

LOL! I damn near wrote the same thing-- I kept thinking of the trial as the "ghosts of Christmas past." There's actually a short little passage in the chapter that really hammers this point home:

He did not sleep at all that night.

Instead he lay in the dark, staring up at the canopy and counting his ghosts. He saw Tysha smiling as she kissed him, saw Sansa naked and shivering in fear. He saw Joffrey clawing his throat, the blood running down his neck as his face turned black. He saw Cersei’s eyes, Bronn’s wolfish smile, Shae’s wicked grin. Even thought of Shae could not arouse him. He fondled himself, thinking that perhaps if he woke his cock and satisfied it, he might rest more easily afterward, but it was no good.

Also, when my "like" allotment" is replenished, I'll need to spam the thread with some.

[Winterfellian]

Great work Bumps!

About Tyrion lying to "protect" Sansa, I find it is contrasting to his lying to Oberyn to protect Tywin later in the same chapter. There is the imagery of a Lannister cloak associated with both instances. In Sansa's case, her Lannister cloak was donned upon her while Tyrion was mounted on a fool's back. The protection offered by said cloak was as much a joke as Tyrion's protection of her innocence during the trial given that accusing her will mean accusing himself. It was the fool's back all over again, a joke.

Then we have Tyrion denying out loud and clear (unlike with Sansa) Tywin's involvement in the murder of Elia and her children, transferring the guilt to Amory Lorch and Gergor Clegane. Again, we see him giving specific half truths instead of cryptic responses like "the gods killed Elia and her children". There is also the fact that the children's corpses were wrapped up in Lannister crimson cloaks to conceal the blood. Unlike with Sansa, Tyrion didn't benefit himself for lying about Tywin's innocence, so why do it? Out of duty? Or is it that Tywin's repression and overpowering of his own children, specifically Tyrion, is so thorough that even when he is harming them they can't bring themselves to lift a finger to strike back? I think it has something to do with this last option, which makes Tyrion's end in this book all the more powerful and dramatic.

Finally, There is something about the idea of using crimson cloaks to disguised blood that is certainly symbolic to the way the Lannisters operate. The Lannister crimson of Sansa's wedding cloak could well be said to conceal the blood of her own relatives slain by the Lannisters along with the blood of her maidenhead, which Tyrion was supposed to spill on their wedding night all in service of the Lannister cause. The fact that Tyrion refused to spill blood on an already bloody cloak, is a instance where he sets himself apart from the rest of the Lannisters, though I know many of you believe he did it for the wrong reasons.

Sansa remarked in one of her last chapters how Cersei's precious cloak was rather threadbare. Following the train of thought involving the use of the crimson to conceal blood, could this mean that the Lannister modus operandi be running rather thin after so much use? A cloak can become threadbare after much use and washing, and given the amount of blood those crimson cloaks have upon them is a wonder they still have any thread at all

[Blisscraft]

Hate to go all lawyerly, especially criminal defense lawyerly, on this particular chapter, but I can't help myself. First, I am so grateful for the US Bill of Rights after reading this chapter. In case some of you are unfamiliar with it, it is the first ten amendments to the US Constitution all ratified in 1791. Specifically, I refer to the 5th, 6th, and 8th Amendments which are all violated during Tyrion's trial. I won't bore you with too much of this, but Tyrion is never formally accused. He has no bail set. He has no lawyer, no impartial jury, can't confront the witness against him, can't compel witnesses to appear on his behalf (even if he could find any). Finally, he is compelled to be a witness against himself and because of all the unfairness, he is deprived of due process. A travesty of justice. . .

Kevan says "wearily" to begin the chapter, "if you are indeed innocent of Joffrey's death, you should have no difficulty proving it at trial." The burden of proof is squarely upon Tyrion. He must prove he's innocent rather that the Crown proving his guilt. There is no presumption of innocence which has existed for centuries in our common law.

Three Judges are to hear Tyrion's case and no jury. In a "bench" trial, like this, without a jury, the judge(s) not only decide the laws which should apply, but also decide the "facts" of the case. There is no prosecuting attorney. The judges are filling that role as well. "Kangaroo court" comes to mind. Three should suggest that there is some "fairness" with regard to the trial, but each Judge has an axe to grind. Even with three, there is no fulcrim.

On the first day of the three days of Tyrion's trial, (the fourth day is yet to come at the end of the chapter and is ultimately interrupted by Tyrion's choice to a trial by combat with Oberyn as his champion), Tyrion is asked outright by Tywin if he killed Joffrey. I suppose this is his "arraignment," the point at which he enters a plea of "guilty" or "not guilty." He in effect, by his denial, enters a plea of "not guilty." The trial begins with the King's Guard witnesses. The effect of their testimony is to supply a motive for the murder. Tyrion hated Joffrey and threatened him verbally and physically. Because they go without cross examination, the whole story is never revealed.

On the second day, presents the first elements of the charge of murder (from common law to statute the basic elements are 1) death; 2) of a human; 3) criminal agency; 4) of another; 5) the accused is the other. Joffrey is dead, presented through the testimony of Maesters Balabar and Frenken. Also, he is a human, not an animal, and the death was not an accident. Joffrey, according to these both "expert" and "fact" witnesses, examined the Joff's body, found no obstruction in his throat and determined (with no other evidence but their expert opinions) that Joff was poisoned (criminal agency).

Pycelle supplies the last element of the murder charge with Tyion as the poisoner. According to Pycelle, Tyrion had the opportunity to take poison from his well stocked shelves while he was in confinment in the black cells, (giving himself an alibi lest anyone turn the pointing finger towards him as a coconspirator). Although, Pycelle no longer has the type of poison used upon the deceased, the strangler, it's no longer in his possession because, Tyrion "used it all." Pycelle's testimony is very nearly a "smoking gun." The murder weapon in Tyrion's hands.

In addition to Pycelle, the rest of the testimony are all "eye" witnesses to the events before, during and after Joffrey's death. These witnesses supply the next to last element of the charge of murder, (of another). Joffrey did not die by suicide, by his own hand. Someone else was reponsible. The most damning, as noted before, is the testimony of Lady Merryweather who fills in the last element with her testimony that she saw Tyrion drop something into the chalice. Tyrion, the accused, is "another."

Kevan approached Tyrion after this second day of testimony with a "plea deal." Confess and you won't get the death penalty is the offer. No death, the Wall.

On the third day, Varys presents all of that "hearsay." Tyrion thinks, as many a legal scholar has before him, "[h]alf truths are worth more than outright lies." All of those "little birds" cannot be cross examined (How do I question a little bird?) . Once again, only part of the whole story is revealed, and the truth is missing entirely. However, all of those "little birds singing" corroborates almost all of the previous days' testimony. Tyrion looks guilty as sin. King Joffrey is dead by poison and the poisoner is Tyrion.

This whole trial seems to be a device to, once again, lure us as readers to Tyrion's side. It's so unbelievably unfair and we know it; that it's a miscarriage of justice. We've seen this so often with Tyrion during the reread. Even without Martin's comments that Tyrion is his "favorite" character, it is evident in his story. Whether you like Tyrion or not as a character, it's extremely difficult to sit back and watch someone railroaded in this fashion.