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Rereading Tyrion V (ASOS-ADWD)


Lummel

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I thought in hucklebury finn it was the same? The boys sail south into the heart of south owning territories just as Tyrion does here. Coming to think of it there is irony in his reflection on slaves not wanting to be free considering he has been exactly the same, happy to be enslaved to Papa Tywin and his attitudes, but I'm anticipating.

There's a further oddness in the greyscale colony being here, sitting astride a useful trade route rather than being off in the desert. Afterall GRRM is writing the story from his own head, if he had wanted he could have done it differently. But the river and the river journey is very suggestive as a symbol, as you were saying above, plus the Twain parallel.

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Blisscraft, your bridge piece is just priceless. Brilliantly done. The covered bridge first struck me in Sansa's Snow Winterfell. It came up again a couple times in the Araya reread- she meets Jon on the covered bridge after running out on her needlework lesson, she passes under a covered bridge escaping Hand's Tower, and I think there's one or two more. Bran also notes the coverd bridge in his climbing chapter too.

Plagiarizing wikipedia: In music a bridge is a contrasting section that prepares for the return of the original material section. This is a Song of Ice and Fire and given Martin's fondness for history repeating itself this may be a fruitful way to look at the bridges too.

Other than Uncat mentioning it we haven't talked about the flyover.

Too rich, thought Tyrion, too beautiful. It is never wise to tempt the dragons. The drowned city was all around them. A half-seen shape flapped by overhead, pale leathery wings beating at the fog. The dwarf craned his head around to get a better look, but the thing was gone as suddenly as it had appeared.

It ties in with his remembered quote about going home to tend fields once you've seen a dragon in flight. I thought of Drogon on my first read but looking at the map I'm not sure it can be. Meereen is probably as far away from The Sorrows as Kings Landing is as the dragon flies. Is it Drogon or is it part of this place being haunted by its destruction? It mirrors their dual bridge passage. They first pass unharmed and then are attacked while the dragons first attacked and now pass without harming.

You can buy a man with gold, but only blood and steel will keep him true” p235

This insight by Lummel deserves more attention too. Tyrion's attitudes toward leadership evolve. In GoT he has two servants that obey him because Tywin said to. Then he hires Bronn with gold and the Mountain Clans with promises of steel to steal the Vale. He still thinks before the Greenfork that he can't lead men of his own accord, but he does to a degree by joining them in battle. He earns their respect and he truly owns their loyalty when he takes them to Kings Landing. In contrast to his thoughts at the Greenfork we see him make men follow him at the Blackwater.

So he started with Tywin's belief of gold and fear of Lannister reprisals. We repeatedly saw the limits of gold and even the limits of Lannister inspired fear-- Hoat betrayed Tywin, Jaime's sellswords turned cloaks at Riverrun, the Gold Cloaks killed Bywater and deserted. "Blood and steel" fits with Tyrion's experiences so far despite contradicting Tywin. I think this evolution in worldview fits with the ideas presented so far-- Tyrion becoming his own Tywin, replaying his his childhood and going back to school, spiritual rebirth, the reforming of the Jungian persona.

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I thought in hucklebury finn it was the same? The boys sail south into the heart of south owning territories just as Tyrion does here. Coming to think of it there is irony in his reflection on slaves not wanting to be free considering he has been exactly the same, happy to be enslaved to Papa Tywin and his attitudes, but I'm anticipating.

Someone who has read Huck Fin more recently than I have should probably answer this question from the text, but as I recall from many years ago, Huck helps the runaway slave, Jim, escape down the river. I do like your point about Tyrion being a "slave" to Tywin and his expectations. This got me thinking about the difference between slavery and imprisionment. One difference that jumps out is that slaves become a form of currency, whereas the imprisioned are not. The imprisioned are "paying a debt," rather than being a form of payment. And you know a Lannister always pays his debts. :D

Thank you Ragnorak! I appreciate the link and the nice comment. Also, like the musical bridge reference. Thank god you didn't mention dental work. ;) And btw, is it possible to plagarize Wikipedia?

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Tyrion VI (DwD)

Summary

Tyrion awakes to discover Griff rescued him from drowning and the Shy Maid is docked in Selhorys. Haldon gives him an ominous medical diagnosis and a knife to prick his toes and fingers to check for Greyscale. Ysilla and Yandry are on shore getting supplies so Tyrion challenges Young Griff to a cyvasse match to pass the time. The two Dornish orphans return with food and rumors and Griff dispatches Haldon to find the truth of the news they've heard. Haldon takes Tyrion ashore with him to an inn where he throws a Cyvasse game to a customs officer as a way of bribing him for information. They confirm the rumors that Dany never started west and is still in Meereen. On the way back Tyrion convinces Haldon to let him detour to a brothel. He hires the only Westerosi born girl there but she isn't Tysha. He feels more ashamed than sated so gets very drunk. On his way out his taken captive by Jorah Mormont.

Observations

I am told his feasts are memorable and his bribes lavish.”

“The Yunkishmen have bought your triarchs?”

“Only Nyessos.”

Illyrio has paid Triarch Nyessos enough to own him eight times over.

Again we see the limits of what gold can buy. The slave trade is life for a triarch of Volantis and you can't pay a man enough to die. Is this a sign of how much Dany has undone Illyrio's plans? What happens to people who cross Illyrio? Do their secrets become public or are there more martial consequences?

Tommen’s rule is bolstered by all of the alliances that my lord father built so carefully, but soon enough she will destroy them, every one.

His lord father built? The two key alliances seem to be Dorne and Highgarden both of which Tyrion built. Those that bent the knee after the Blackwater might be Tywin's and arguably whatever alliance exists with Littlefinger and the Vale. The Freys and Boltons are certainly Tywin's.

Even so, it is a small prize. If I were khal, I would feint at Selhorys, let the Volantenes rush to defend it, then swing south and ride hard for Volantis itself.

Supper was a plate of roasted goat served on a bed of sliced onions. The meat was spiced and fragrant, charred outside and red and juicy within. Tyrion plucked at a piece. It was so hot it burned his fingers, but so good he could not help but reach for another chunk.

This strikes me as a perfect metaphor for Tyrion-- a man smart enough to learn his lesson but burned twice through temptation anyway. Goat, or kid specifically, was the meal he shared with Bronn and the Mountain Clans leaving the Vale. It wanted spice which this goat has as well as wine and a woman which he'll soon get. There he found the rasping sound of Bronn's sword sharpening to be a comfort compared to the slaves sharpening kitchen knives behind the Black Wall.

That was some tanner’s son from Pisswater Bend whose mother died birthing him. His father sold him to Lord Varys for a jug of Arbor gold.

Lies and Arbor gold? A tanner brings skinchanging to mind and there seems to be something to the juxtaposition of Pisswater and Arbor gold too.

Lemore?

Lemore, though … Who is she, really? Why is she here? Not for gold, I’d judge. What is this prince to her? Was she ever a true septa?

She turned back to Prince Aegon. “You are not the only one who must needs hide.”

Lots of potential symbols here. Tyrion's bathed in vinegar, Ysilla and Yandry return with wine and fish, two cyvasse games, Triarch Horonno's statue, Tyrion is given a pouch of silver instead of Lannister gold, the Red Priests, and lots of potentially loaded lines like " Tyrion watched as Haldon’s face turned green, then red, then purple."

Analysis

The cyvasse game with Aegon is complicated. He manipulates Aegon in much the same way Littlefinger played Joffrey though I don't suspect he had Littlefinger's malicious intent. Griff isn't particularly open to Tyrion's suggestions and not even easily swayed by Haldon's counsel. If Tyrion wants to influence this new family he's found Aegon is probably the most effective choice. Tyrion also gives this advice before he learns that Dany is not already heading west as they suspected. Dany being trapped in Meereen would provide Aegon with the opportunity to rescue her which may have changed Tyrion's opinion about the wisest course. His political assessment of Westeros strikes me as accurate and these do seem to be the circumstances Varys and Illyrio have been plotting to foster all along.

Still Tyrion doesn't just give advice. He manipulates Aegon in the style of Tywin's sharp lessons even though it is only through a game. The advice is also self-serving. Tyrion wants revenge on Cersei and that means going to Westeros and not Meereen. He also wants to play a role in Cersei's downfall which his advice would afford him. There is also the fact that he's a Lannister and it isn't only Aegon's marriage prospects that rest on the whims of a woman. Griff reminding him of his father likely plays a role in his choice of tactic and it would have been nice to see Tyrion adopt this stance against Tywin back in SoS.

I'm still of the opinion that Tyrion believes this is the Aegon for now. He still thinks of him as "the prince" in his own thoughts and he doesn't make any reference to doubts of his legitimacy in his political calculations. He does taunt Aegon over the story surrounding his supposed death. I read this as the opening for his manipulations but if anyone reads it differently I'd be curious how you put the pieces together.

Tyrion has earned his place on the Shy Maid. Young Griff insisted they save him. Griff jumps in after him and later reflects that his saving Aegon earned his trust. Haldon wants to take Tyrion with him to gather information. Lemore hugs him despite the greyscale fear and also was the one to force the water from his lungs. We have explicit signs of acceptance from everyone but Duck, Ysilla, and Yandry.

I got a sense of surrogate family here that I haven't fully pieced together. Haldon seems a bit of a Jaime replacement. He uses his wits to advance the prospects of his new House just as he told Jon his purpose was back in GoT. He has important work, he's a player again in the Game of Thrones, he's touring Essos like he wanted to as a child, and his valor in saving Aegon is recognized, appreciated, and rewarded-- all things Tywin previously denied him. Lemore gives him a very maternal affectionate embrace. Despite this there's still a hunger for affection. There's the diseased embrace he dreams of at the opening of the chapter:

when his father wrapped stone arms around him and bent to give him his grey kiss, he woke with his mouth dry and rusty with the taste of blood and his heart hammering in his chest.

He has the fruitless attempt at affection in the brothel (the whores his father denied him and the wine his surrogate father forbid) where again he fears his dreams of the Shrouded Lord. The Shrouded Lord almost bookends the chapter. Anyone else see the family angle and elements of the past resurfacing or did those components strike others differently?

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two serveral things:

1.)the cyvasse scene reminds with the scene tyrion had with jon snow on the way to the wall. (and egg in whitehall when he talked with brynden)

2.) the dissoncance in what tyrion intended and what tyrion got: instead of an puppet troubleshooting his masters plans. he got aegon instead to kill the boy and let the man be born

3.) we seeing the IMHO the beginning of the setup for the second dance of the dragons

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...He has the fruitless attempt at affection in the brothel (the whores his father denied him and the wine his surrogate father forbid) where again he fears his dreams of the Shrouded Lord. The Shrouded Lord almost bookends the chapter. Anyone else see the family angle and elements of the past resurfacing or did those components strike others differently?

Yes. In his dreams he ascends to the Shrouded Lord - he ascended to his father too on two significant occasions to kill him and to be denied the inheritance. Connington saving him proves that he hates Tyrion to the dwarf's mind. The substitute father hates him, the real father hated him, only the third lord offers to embrace him but Tyrion fears that embrace. When at teh beginning of the chapter he dreams that the shrouded lord and his father are one, the kiss is a kiss of death. It is an inversion of the his reality. He receives the affection he desired but in the dream world it means death not love.

two serveral things:

1.)the cyvasse scene reminds with the scene tyrion had with jon snow on the way to the wall. (and egg in whitehall when he talked with brynden)

2.) the dissoncance in what tyrion intended and what tyrion got: instead of an puppet troubleshooting his masters plans. he got aegon instead to kill the boy and let the man be born

3.) we seeing the IMHO the beginning of the setup for the second dance of the dragons

I agree very strongly with (1) and I also agree with (3). I don't see Aegon as emerging as a man from the game. He reminds Tyrion of Joffrey. He behaves like a spoilt child. He can't control himself, he looses his temper playing a game. This isn't adult behaviour (well not in my opinion and I wouldn't be impressed with a child behaving like that either, a sure sign they are overdue for bedtime).

I like Ragnorak the pisswater bend arbour gold comparison, two golden liquids. Is the story a piss take or a piss giving? It fits with what Tyrion is aware of, the boy's clothes at Illyrio's palace and Illyrio's affection for the lad.

Tyrion's analysis of Daenerys here reminded me rather of his map reading analysis of Tywin's strategy in ACOK. He makes the most out of the limited information he has, but then that is undercut in the narrative because we know that Tyrion is talking to distract Aegon so he can beat him at Cyvasse. There's a lesson in that for Aegon, but he seems unaware of it. This counterbalance by the game with the customs official in which Tyrion barely talks but plays to loose. This apparently requires more concentration :laugh:

"What are they, if not tigers? What am I, if not a lion?" This takes us back to the slavery theme and Illyrio's words in Tyrion I ADWD. THe tigers slavery is obvious. It is marked on their skin, status has defined their identity. This is the same for Tyrion with the difference that he has internalised his fathers values and allowed them still to define them, a subtler but maybe more absolute form of slavery? Worse it means he can't escape his father's grey kiss. Connington can rescue him (this all seems a bit, er...well Tyrion is playing the role of the swooning heroine in the river, with two men fighting over him, a grey lord and a (presumed) dead lord, is this a homosexual motiv or does Tyrion's small size make that rescue more of a custody battle?) physically, but inside Tyrion is still bound to Tywin.

Monster I thought was interesting. The customs officer calls Daenerys a monster, reminding us of her thoughts "if they are monster then so am I", later Tyrion calls himself a monster when talking to the slave prostitute (again in his words one of the living dead, Aegon is living dead, Connington is living dead twice over...). Ultimately will Tyrion decide that he is just a monster, a lion, a fell beast, or can he recover a sense of his own humanity? Can he integrate the monster and the man into a complete persona?

"a woman beat a mule outside a stable" p285. This struck me. Maybe its just a bit of throw away local colour. But beating a mule is an exercise in futility, not that I'm an expert in farm animals, but you know, stubborn as a mule, plus the lack of genitals means they lack a tender spot suitable for abusive beating, a more effective strategy is to coax them. What is Tyrion doing in this chapter? He winds up Aegon to win a game, he has sex with a slave prostitute that fails to bring him any satisfaction, he drinks and promptly vomits it all back out - a form of oral communication more comprehensible to the girl than his speech. It all futile activity, like the woman flogging the mule.

First mention of Bennaro and the death and resurrection of R'hllor's servants. Butterbumps! has an idea about that.

ETA there always seems to me something a boy's own adventure about the Aegon campaign that belies Varys' words at the end about being trained for duty and Tyrion sets him off on that path, both through the game and connington's rescue of him.

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Nice one, Ragnorak.

"The Old Man of the River is a lesser god," said Garin. "He was born from Mother River too, and fought the Crab King to win dominion over all who dwell beneath the flowing waters."

Tyrion could be the Old Man of the River as having come across a giant turtle that Yandry and Ysilla claim is the Old Man of the Riveras well as journeying on the Rhoyne, and is pulled out from the river, inferred he was reborn from the river;

“Asha, my two tall sons fed the crabs of Fair Isle."

Stannis commanded the Battle at Fair Isle, and with Ice Turtle's quote above; that's two references to Stannis as a crab.

This foreshadows Tyrion and Stannis going to battle against each other, and Tyrion's side winning the battle.

As for Aegon, Tyrion notes his strategy is to risk all for the quick kill, it does help to understand why Aegon takes Tyrion's advice as it plays to that strategy. Tyrion also notes The perfect prince but still half a boy for all that, with little, and less experience of the world and all its woes. Aegon later demonstrates this when he shows to be a sore loser at cyvasse instead of taking Tyrion's lesson.

ETA:

Tyrion looks to self-interest and fear as ways to maintain loyalty. The mountain clans and Manderleys have been shown to remain true to the Starks without gold or blood and steel.

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Are there any parallel's between the Jon Con/Aegon group and Quentyn Martell's? This might be too off topic, but if they are comparabe (both, ultimately, have Daenerys as their goals) perhaps it reflects on Tyrion in some fashion.

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....

I agree very strongly with (1) and I also agree with (3). I don't see Aegon as emerging as a man from the game. He reminds Tyrion of Joffrey. He behaves like a spoilt child. He can't control himself, he looses his temper playing a game. This isn't adult behaviour (well not in my opinion and I wouldn't be impressed with a child behaving like that either, a sure sign they are overdue for bedtime).

...

Tyrion's analysis of Daenerys here reminded me rather of his map reading analysis of Tywin's strategy in ACOK. He makes the most out of the limited information he has, but then that is undercut in the narrative because we know that Tyrion is talking to distract Aegon so he can beat him at Cyvasse. There's a lesson in that for Aegon, but he seems unaware of it. This counterbalance by the game with the customs official in which Tyrion barely talks but plays to loose. This apparently requires more concentration :laugh:

....

when was the moment Aegon tossed the cyvasse table? not when he realised he lost but when couldn't resist opening his mouth again

not to mention that Aegon doesn't simply retale, he even barely uses Tyrion words he said it himdelf "i thought about it"

and yes intenionkly loosing is hard

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Great work Ragnorak!

If I may, I want to take up something from the last chapter:

You can buy a man with gold, but only blood and steel will keep him true

This stands in as contrasting but also similar to Tyrion’s approach to loyalty in AGOT:

He (Tyrion) bought gold with loyalty and compelled obedience with his name

What strike me about the different notions are 2 things. One is that for Tyrion, even after everything he’s been through, gold remains a factor when it comes to compelling loyalty from others. Despite his ambiguous and sometimes even longing attitude toward the Stark style of leadership (in which gold has no place) is evident that Tyrion has yet to come to terms with the fact that it is possible to get others to follow you, without resorting to buy them.

The other thing is that in the absence of a family name that he can use to command respect he concludes is blood what will keep men true. I very much like the idea that Lummel put forth about collective blooding, but I fear that with this conclusions Tyrion is setting himself down a path to become the next Tywin Lannister. After all, the family name with which Tyrion commanded respect back in AGOT was bought with blood. Though the Lannisters were always rich it is evident that events such as what happen to the Reynes of Castamere or Rhaegar’s children is what compels others to fear/respect House Lannister. While in AGOT Tyrion commanded respect through a name that was bought with blood by his father’s actions now he’s concluding for himself that the blood is indeed a necessary evil along with gold. I don't thin is a coincidence that we get so many elements evoking the image of a father in this new chapter!

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Lummel, given Tyrion's inner conflict and the second childhood feel in this book so far a "custody battle" is actually perfect. The monster comparison is interesting as well.

I like the mule whipping observation. I got that meaningful feel from so many of the little observations and lines in this chapter. Haldon japes about a dwarf cock having magical properties and then we have the guard rubbing the dwarf's head for luck. He hears the queer flute music then denies that he pipes. There's the colored parchment lanterns that become real stained glass inside. Stained glass brings a church or cathedral to mind. The lanterns seem to be red, green, and purple based on Haldon's change of hue. These lights should be painting Tyrion's world these colors too. Blisscraft would be better suited for this but for starters: Red is Lannisters, blood and fire, a literal red light district. Green is the Rhoyne, the untested Aegon, sickness. Purple is royalty, the color of the game of thrones. Skimming the chapter "red" is abundant. There is red wine, red hair, red flesh, red candles, red priests, red goat meat, Dany's Red Wastes, red temples, red stone, and the town painted red by the setting sun. The Volantene wine and the tiger stripes on the guards are green.

The beheaded statue of Triarch Horonno stood out too. The impossibly ornate armor reminded me of Tywin. The sovereign people behind the Black Wall bestowed an office on him like the sovereign Aerys bestowed an office on Tywin. Both developed arrogance and a sense of entitlement for the office disconnected from the idea that it is a thing bestowed by the sovereign. Seizing the office for life is very much an act of Lannister taking and beheading the statue even after his death says something about one's legacy.

Fire Eater, I got lots of hints at potential foreshadowing too. "Even so, it is a small prize. If I were khal, I would feint at Selhorys, let the Volantenes rush to defend it, then swing south and ride hard for Volantis itself" stuck out in particular and made me wonder about Dany's eventual return trip. Aegon's childish fit that scatters the pieces Tyrion has to pick up was another potentially loaded image. The crabs are curious because back in GoT that was the first convivial meal Tyrion shared when he was at the Wall and he spent most of the next several books being denied shared meals in some way.

Even Death May Die, I suspect there are many parallels between Quentyn Martell's journey and Tyrion's but his Volantis chapter is fuzzy in my head at the moment. I do recall that Quentyn sees Penny jousting so there is definitely some intentional connections.

the Scorpion Knight, I like the Aegon/Jon comparison. I share Lummel's skepticism about whether the man is truly born here partly because of the differences in outcome between Jon and Aegon in the encounters. My recollection is that Aegon is more mature in his behavior later but Lummel will be posting JonCon's chapter soon so we'll have the opportunity to look at it more closely.

Winterfellian, I think we get more of Martin philosphizing about loyalty in Tyrion than any other POV. I'd have to think more about whether Dorne and Highgarden's loyatly was won with the blood of justice and the blood of a marriage bed, but Tyrion seems to win loyalty by participating in battle. He won the clans that way at the Greenfork and got men to follow him that way on the Blackwater. He even wins Griff's loyalty through the collective blooding of battle here. I don't want to deny his Tywin streak but I don't think Tywin would ever jump in front of a stoneman to save Aegon. Tywin was always in the rear and Tyrion is always on the front line. Is it fair to say he's becoming his own Tywin substituting collective blooding for a Rains of Castamere fear or is it too soon to make a call? We also get Illyrio's failure to buy Nyessos here but Tyrion doesn't comment on it.

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the Scorpion Knight, I like the Aegon/Jon comparison. I share Lummel's skepticism about whether the man is truly born here partly because of the differences in outcome between Jon and Aegon in the encounters. My recollection is that Aegon is more mature in his behavior later but Lummel will be posting JonCon's chapter soon so we'll have the opportunity to look at it more closely.

I never said it was imiteadly. I said it wasn't Tyrion's desired effect of his ruse.

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Are there any parallel's between the Jon Con/Aegon group and Quentyn Martell's? This might be too off topic, but if they are comparabe (both, ultimately, have Daenerys as their goals) perhaps it reflects on Tyrion in some fashion.

BOth teams had a maester, both had dornishmen, both had knights, both had a heir of a Lordship(Griif is an exiled lord and Yronwood is the heir), both had a prince.

Both groups were attacked in boats, Quentyn and his companions by pirates and the Shy Maid crew by stone men.

Quentyn and Tyrion wanted to please their fathers, because they were neglected (Tyrion emotionally, and Quentyn with a more physical aproach). They both traveled to Essos because of this. And both of these men use their children for political gain, wanting their daughters to be queen and not being forgiving. And they have uncles who supported their fathers.

Both of their mothers disappear from their lifes in an early stage. Both of their sisters believe they would be the cause of their doom and Arianne and Cersei also want the approval of their fathers.

They also have brothers, but we dont know anything of Trystane to make parallels of them.

Looking at their personalities, they are very different.

At this point in the re-read are the most important parallels. There could be more, but these are the ones the I can remember. LAter we can catch more Im sure.

Once again forgive me for my bad English.

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...The beheaded statue of Triarch Horonno stood out too. The impossibly ornate armor reminded me of Tywin. The sovereign people behind the Black Wall bestowed an office on him like the sovereign Aerys bestowed an office on Tywin. Both developed arrogance and a sense of entitlement for the office disconnected from the idea that it is a thing bestowed by the sovereign. Seizing the office for life is very much an act of Lannister taking and beheading the statue even after his death says something about one's legacy...

Yes that is an interesting one to pick up on. Again it is a bit Ozymandias but also one of the themes of ADWD is the comparison between the political legacys of The Ned and Tywin Lannister. It's a monument to failed ambition...and here we are just off the boat that has Aegon sailing towards his fate - and he is not going to be one for consensus politics.

BOth teams had a maester, both had dornishmen, both had knights, both had a heir of a Lordship(Griif is an exiled lord and Yronwood is the heir), both had a prince...

All that, also I think both men are looking to Daenerys for a role that will give meaning to their lives. Quentyn sees himself as being in a fairy tale, while Tyrion is on more of a pilgrimage - but could say that both are on quests.

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I was going through possible Septa Lemore candidates based on the assumption that she's someone who has been mentioned somewhere in the series already (which doesn't have to be so.) I know Ashara is a popular one as well as the Septa who was one of the Sandsnake's mother. What about Wenda the White Fawn from the Kingswood Brotherhood?

Our information on Lemore is rather sketchy-- female, forty-ish, from Westeros, was pregnant, and has reason to hide. We don't really know much about Wenda the White Fawn either but she's female, about the right age, and has reason to hide. Myles Toyne was commander of the Golden Company when Varys/Illyrio set up their conspiracy and recruited Connington and Simon Toyne was the leader of the Kingswood Brotherhood. That isn't proof of anything but it is a connection. I can see her fleeing to the GC after Simon Toyne's defeat but don't see anything that would make her loyal to an Aegon Targaryen (or Blackfyre) beyond the GC exile status.

There has to be a story behind her branding highborn captives with her White Fawn and maybe there's a clue there. The only potential symbolic meaning of "White Fawn" that comes to mind for me would be in contrast to "White Hart." The Kingswood Brotherhood is a bit of a Robin Hood tale so maybe there's a play on one of the many Maid Marion incarnations that has possibilities? I don't think we have enough information to claim sufficient proof in the text as to Lemore's true identity but I thought I'd throw this one against the wall and see if anything sticks.

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@Ragnorak

I completely agree with you that Lemore is Wenda the White Fawn. Good job finding the connection with the Toynes between the GC and the Kingswood Brotherhood.

Wenda could have gotten the "white" in her name as a reference to a septa's robes which are traditionally white.

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Interesting. I know nothing about Wenda and thought she was killed in the battle with the Kingswood Brotherhood that Jaime mentions. Of course, being killed in this story could just mean disappeared for a time. My long time crackpot was that Lemore was the mother of the Sandsnake, Nymeria?, that is the septa.

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I like the idea Lenore being Wenda. If it's true then it creates a parallel between herself and Arya and creates another parallel between Aegon and Jon.

Arya contemplates becoming an outlaw like Wenda but then rejects the idea. However, if Lenore is Wenda then Arya has unknowingly become like Wenda because both turn away from the outlaw life and join religious orders in part to hide their Westeros identities.

Wenda being an important part of Aegon's life and goals is similar to Ulmer being an important of Jon's life and goals.

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ETA Sorry, still catching up, but I had to get this one out /ETA

observations and lines in this chapter. Haldon japes about a dwarf cock having magical properties and then we have the guard rubbing the dwarf's head for luck

Ragnorak, thanks for bringing this up. It is a thing that stuck with me from the first read. It felt like a sign, that Tyrions luck is about to change. His being a dwarf was regarded as an ill omen by his family and most other people, too. But now suddenly people in Essos take the dwarf as a good omen. Though it is really demeaning for him to be taken for a talisman, my thoughts jumped right away to him bringing good fortune to Dany. It seems as ifTyrion is bad news in the West but good news in Slavers Bay.

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