34 replies to this topic

[Lion of Judah]

Welcome  to the 5th installation of the “Official court of law” for this board. In this thread we will debate and pass judgement on character crimes from the work ASOIAF. As judges we bear a burden of upholding the integrity of our court so being impartial is imperative, keep all arguments in a legal context that suit the standards of this court. All posters are welcomed to make their case, at the end of your argument pass your judgement and sentence!!!!

The rules: Every poster has one vote (per charge) of guilt or innocence.

**For a guilty verdict, your options are:

• Send them to the wall. (same as prison sentence)
  
• Death by sword. (Clean and quick)
  
• Death by flames. (An ode to R’hllor)
  
• Death by flaying. (oh boy)
  
• Monetary fine
  
• Exile and/or
  
• Stripped of land/title.
  
• Prison sentence

**If you find the character innocent, simply state innocent after your argument.
As for as evidence that can be submitted, posters can submit any argument they deem relevant. However we cannot use any pardons or prior convictions as evidence in the matter. Our court will not recognize the judgement of any other court or ruling body.

**You can also vote for charges to be dismissed (majority rule).
**At the end of the week the vote will be counted and the final sentence carried out. Majority rules. Only the nominated character will be discussed, however, you can indict characters you also find culpable, as part of your ruling, and they can be added to the docket.

**Votes can be changed before they are counted, but do so in your original post.
Posters can just cast a vote, which is your right, but try to state a case as well. Your opinion actually matters and it may serve to change the vote of another judge.
*Do not take it personally if your favorite character is being torn to pieces. Everyone is fair game.

****If votes of 'not guilty' and 'dismissed' taken together comprise over 50% of the total votes cast, the defendant is to be found 'not guilty' or the charge is to be 'dismissed', with the option that gained the most votes between the two representing the final verdict.****
http://asoiaf.wester...r/#entry3893576
http://asoiaf.wester...k/#entry3917441
http://asoiaf.wester...r/page__st__100
http://asoiaf.wester...e/#entry3999723

This court call upon the defendant Lord Alester Florent, Hand of the king, Lord of Bridgewater Keep and charge him with:

Count 1. High treason- Lord Florent acknowledge the claim of Reny Baratheon over his elder brother and rightful heir Stannis Baratheon.
Evidence: "I know you for a man of ambition," Ser Cortnay broke in. "A man who changes kings and gods the way I change my boots. As do these other turncloaks I see before me."

Count 2. Collusion-Lord Florent sort to undermine the claim of Stannis Baratheon a man he swore his fealty to by negotiating with House Lannister after the Battle of Blackwater.

Count 3. Oath Breaking-Lord Florent broke the oaths he swore to Lord Renly when he bent the knee to Stannis. He then broke the oaths he swore to Stannis solely acting in his own best interest. Lord Florent has shown a devious pattern of breaking the oaths he swore by his ancestors when he abandoned the Seven and breaking the oaths he has sworn to kings and men alike.

Judges present your case.

[Lady Sansa Stark]

Count 1. High treason- Lord Florent acknowledge the claim of Reny Baratheon over his elder brother and rightful heir Stannis Baratheon.
Evidence: "I know you for a man of ambition," Ser Cortnay broke in. "A man who changes kings and gods the way I change my boots. As do these other turncloaks I see before me."
Guilty. Stannis is the legal King/heir to the Iron Throne, and Lord Alester Florent supported Renly instead, who didn't even know by that time that Joffrey was illegitimate. Whether to Stannis, or to Joffrey, Alester Florent committed high treason. Death by sword.

Count 2. Collusion-Lord Florent sort to undermine the claim of Stannis Baratheon a man he swore his fealty to by negotiating with House Lannister after the Battle of Blackwater.
Guilty. Alester Florent committed treason by this, though he in no way sought to undermine Stannis Baratheon or to get him in danger. Still, treason should be punished by death. Death by sword.

Count 3. Oath Breaking-Lord Florent broke the oaths he swore to Lord Renly when he bent the knee to Stannis. He then broke the oaths he swore to Stannis solely acting in his own best interest. Lord Florent has shown a devious pattern of breaking the oaths he swore by his ancestors when he abandoned the Seven and breaking the oaths he has sworn to kings and men alike.
Guilty. I do not care about what Jaime says about oaths, given the fact that Lord Alester Florent broke oaths to further his own interest and without any good reason. Death by sword.

Final judgement; Death by sword.

ETA: Count Three. I always assumed that breaking an oath to a King is seen as a crime. Therefore he is, in my interpretation of the law, guilty. If, however, it is not a crime in Westeros (which would surprise me, but still) then I hereby declare him as not guilty on that count.

Edited by Lady Sansa Stark, 22 January 2013 - 05:52 AM.

[TheGreyKraken]

Count 1: Guilty

Count 2: Guilty

Count 3: Not Guilty, Renly being killed gives Florent free will to choose which king he serves.

Verdict: Guilty, Sent to The Wall

Edited by TheGreyKraken, 21 January 2013 - 06:18 PM.

[Adelstein]

Count 1. High treason

Dismiss charges. At the time Lord Florent declared for Renly Baratheon, the legal king of Westeros was Joffrey Baratheon, not Stannis Baratheon. It was not legally possible to commit high treason against Stannis Baratheon, as he was not the king. Lord Florent should be tried and (if convicted) sentenced separately on a charge of high treason against King Joffrey Baratheon.

Count 2. Collusion

Guilty. Lord Florent exceeded his authority as Hand of the King in negotiating with his lord's sworn enemies.
Sentence: Stripped of titles as Hand of the King and Lord Florent; imprisonment for a period to be decided by the court not in excess of 10 years.

Count 3. Oath Breaking

Not guilty due to insufficient evidence. There is nothing to suggest that Lord Florent took an oath not to support Stannis in the event of Renly's death. There is further nothing to suggest that he swore an oath to Stannis not to negotiate with the Lannisters. It is not possible to prove this charge beyond reasonable doubt given the lack of evidence available about whether the supposed oaths were even sworn, so Lord Florent must be acquitted.

[The Dornishman's Wife]

Count 1: Not guilty. Alester Florent is sworn to House Tyrell. He is not to blame for upholding his oath of fealty to his liege lord even though that lord did support an unlawful king.

Count 2: Not guilty. It was Alester Florent's duty to govern as hand when Stannis did not. While it was also in his own interest to make peace with the Lannisters, it can be reasonably argued that he also believed it to be in Stannis's interest to have that option.

Count 3: Not guilty. Renly was dead by that time and Stannis was Renly's obvious heir.

Sentence: Well, nothing obviously. Still, I can't stand the guy and I'm not overly saddened by his demise.

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

1. Guilty
2. Guilty
3. Not guilty. Renly was dead by the time Lord Alester bent the knee to King Stannis.

I hereby find the defendant, Alester of House Florent, Lord of Brightwater Keep, guilty of high treason and collusion and sentence him to death by sword.

[Hans Sprungfeld]

Count 1: Pardoned. It is standard practice in Westeros that if you bow to the proper lord after a battle, you are forgiven and get to keep most or all of your lands.

Count 2: Guilty. Stannis never mad him Hand of the King, Selyse did. Selyse is Queen Consort, she doesn't have the power to appoint a Hand. Since Alester's surrender was done without permission from the King and undermined morale and the objective of the King; I consider this treason. In Westeros treason is punishable by death. He should be killed by whichever death grants the most fortune for Stannis and his men.

Count 3: Thrown out of court. Even if one accepts Renly's claim, he had no children nor a pregnant spouse. This means that Stannis was his heir and bowing to him is no crime.

[Thendel]

Count 1: Guilty. Though Stannis Baratheon had yet to press his claim to the throne, Renly's claim was by no means backed by laws of inheritance. Accordingly, the defendant will answer for backing an outlaw king. This juror notes that the defendant has since acknowledged the rightful king by law, Stannis Baratheon.

Count 2: Guilty. Though it falls within the jurisdiction of the office of the Hand of the King to negotiate in his stead, the defendant had no intention of keeping his king apprised of the nature of these negotiations nor seek his final consent, and is thus guilty of actively undermining the crown's interests.

Count 3: Not Guilty. As a usurper, no oath sworn to Renly Baratheon will be considered legally binding in the eyes of this court.

Verdict: This juror finds Lord Alester Florent guilty of high treason and collusion. For high treason, House Florent will be obliged to additional taxation, to forfeit any outstanding with the crown, and to forego any claim to lands beyond those of Brightwater Keep and any honors won in combat. For collusion, the defendant will be stripped of all lands, titles and incomes, and will serve prison time for the remainder of his years.

[Knight Of Winter]

Count 1. High treason- Lord Florent acknowledge the claim of Reny Baratheon over his elder brother and rightful heir Stannis Baratheon.
Not guilty - the whole notion of judging someone because he failed to support "rightful" king or heir seems pointless. If he thought Renly would make best king, he should have full right to support him. Else you turn into Aerys's KG, who willingly obeyed madman and did his bidding for the sole reason he is "rightful"

Count 2. Collusion-Lord Florent sort to undermine the claim of Stannis Baratheon a man he swore his fealty to by negotiating with House Lannister after the Battle of Blackwater.
Guilty - really, you can't have King's Hand leading seperate foreign politics from the King himself. Sentence: exile and stripping of all lands and titles.

Count 3. Oath Breaking-Lord Florent broke the oaths he swore to Lord Renly when he bent the knee to Stannis. He then broke the oaths he swore to Stannis solely acting in his own best interest. Lord Florent has shown a devious pattern of breaking the oaths he swore by his ancestors when he abandoned the Seven and breaking the oaths he has sworn to kings and men alike.
Not guilty - is oath-breaking a crime at all? Or just viewed as wrong and disgusting while not being "illegal"? Until we know more of this, I'll err on a side of mercy and say not guilty.

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

1. NOT GUILTY If he was, pretty much have to execute every lord  who didn't side with you right off (which is the majority no matter who you are). He did his duty followed his liege lord (the Tyrells). It may be a crime, but one that is almost never punished unless it is the House that starts the rebellion.

2. GUILTY He did not go up to Stannis and try to convince him it was the right choice. He simply did it. That is treason. DEATH BY THE SWORD or  SENT TO THE WALL (I disagree with the OP's view on what sending to the wall is supposed to be, those who go by crimes, I see it as essentially a death sentence socially)

3. NOT GUILTY Renly was dead. If he broke an oath, it was to the Tyrells. So, I would consider him guilty of that (maybe), but of Renly I must find him innocent.

Edited by Lord Bronn Stokeworth, 21 January 2013 - 06:03 PM.

[DogLover]

Count 1: Not guilty. Ser Alester Florent is sworn to House Tyrell. If he is guilty of treason, it's against Joffrey, not Stannis, and a separate trial should be held.

Count 2: Guilty. Florent had no right to negotiate with the enemy without Stannis' knowledge and approval. Sentence: the Wall.

Count 3: Not guilty. Renly's death frees him from his oath.

[The-Valonqar]

Count 1. High treason- Lord Florent acknowledge the claim of Reny Baratheon over his elder brother and rightful heir Stannis Baratheon.
The Court can not find a man guilty for not denying Stannis Baratheons claim to the Throne for it was denied from Dorne to the Wall without consequences. If the court would find Lord Florent guilty the court would need to find most of Westeros guilty for treason. All men are supposed to be equal by the law so we can not find Florent guilty and the rest of Westeros innocent like we have up til this moment. Another reason the court decides to pardon Lord Florent on count 1 is that the prosecutor never fully proved that Stannis Baratheon was the rightful heir. And if going with your liege lord against the rightful ruler of the Throne Stannis Baratheon himself would be find guilty of High treason for his actions against the Targaryans in his brothers rebellion.

Count 2. Collusion-Lord Florent sort to undermine the claim of Stannis Baratheon a man he swore his fealty to by negotiating with House Lannister after the Battle of Blackwater.
Lord Florent had the Job of a Kings Hand. Nowhere in the laws of the Kings Hand does it say that a Hand shall protect the Kings claim or obey the King on all accounts. Hands have normally been punished by being remowed from position or sentenced by their King. As Stannis could not be contacted we can not bring sentence on Florent. The court abstains from making a decision for this matter is not under the courts jurisdiction.

Count 3. Oath Breaking-Lord Florent broke the oaths he swore to Lord Renly when he bent the knee to Stannis. He then broke the oaths he swore to Stannis solely acting in his own best interest. Lord Florent has shown a devious pattern of breaking the oaths he swore by his ancestors when he abandoned the Seven and breaking the oaths he has sworn to kings and men alike.
Lord Florent held no oaths to Renly after his unexpected death. Lord Stannis was Renly's heir so bending the knee to Stannis is the right procedure. The prosecution has to be more specific when it talks of this devious pattern. That claim is to general so the court must find him innocent.

The court finds Lord Florent innocent of all accounts 1 and 3 and abstains from passing judgement on account 1. The crown pays for all legal expenses. Lord Florent is free to go.

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

Count 1: Guilty-Upon excepting Joffery was not the rightful heir he was obligated to support the legal one! That being Stannis Baratheon.
Count 2: Guilty-Negotiations with the Lannister's without leave from his King are Treason.
Count 3: Not Guilty- Renly Baratheon's death freed any of those sworn to him of their oaths.
Verdict: Death by sword.

[ServantOnIce]

Count 1 High Treason,

The court finds him not guilty. His Liege Lord is Mace Tyrell.   By choosing Renly as King, Renly who is betrothed to Madge Tyrell, the daughter of his liege lord he followed protocol. He still was loyal to his liege Lord.

Count 2 Collusion

The court finds him GUILTY as charged.  After the defeat of the Blackwater, he sent messages to the Lannisters and Baratheons to betray Stannis and his cause, someone after the defeat of Renly he pledged fealty too.  This fealty broke his oath to his liege Lord Mace Tyrell, and then attempted to, "sell out" Lord Stannis Baratheon. For this he is GUILTY.  The Sentence  Death by Hanging.  I don' t like beheading, far too barbaric.

Count 3

Guilty, for the same reasons as stated above.  Same sentence Death by Hanging.

[Dragon Tamer]

High treason- dismissed. Alestor Florent is guilty of the crime but he eventually bent the knee. Going by precedent, rebellious lords who bend the knee are usually forgiven.

Collision- guilty. Alestor Florent  entered into peace negotiations without his king's consent. This is treason. Sentence, send him to the wall.

Oathbreaking
the oath to Renly-innocent. Lord Renly was already dead when the defendant bent the knee to Stannis, and since Renly had no children, the defendant's oath was null and void.
The oath to King Stannis- dismissed. This charge has already been covered under collision.

[Daario's*before*Snows]

Do one for Stannis!
Unless you already have?

[Lion of Judah]

Eye*Non, on 22 January 2013 - 03:08 AM, said:

Do one for Stannis!
Unless you already have?

Stannis's trial will come.

[Great White Walker]

Count 1. High treason- Lord Florent acknowledge the claim of Reny Baratheon over his elder brother and rightful heir Stannis Baratheon.
Evidence: "I know you for a man of ambition," Ser Cortnay broke in. "A man who changes kings and gods the way I change my boots. As do these other turncloaks I see before me."

Guilty: Monetary fine
5 kings...lords were confused at that time5


Count 2. Collusion-Lord Florent sort to undermine the claim of Stannis Baratheon a man he swore his fealty to by negotiating with House Lannister after the Battle of Blackwater.
Guilty: Send to the wall


Count 3. Oath Breaking-Lord Florent broke the oaths he swore to Lord Renly when he bent the knee to Stannis. He then broke the oaths he swore to Stannis solely acting in his own best interest. Lord Florent has shown a devious pattern of breaking the oaths he swore by his ancestors when he abandoned the Seven and breaking the oaths he has sworn to kings and men alike.

Guilty: Send to the wall.

[Three eyed wolf]

1. Not guilty. Renly was his liege lord, not declaring for him would also be treason so he cannot be held acountable

2. Guilty. He went against his kings wishes and undermined his authority for personal gain.
TO THE WALL

3. Not guilty. When Renly died he went to his most obvious heir which can hardly be breaking any oaths and there is no evidence of Stannis ever making him swear an oath not to treat with the Lanisters

Over all sentence... TO THE WALL

[Fragon]

1. Not Guilty, they were not able to know Stannis was the true heir but again, going again Joeffrey with Renly, while believeing Joeffrey is the true king is a bit strange.
2. Guilty for high trason, sent to the wall or death by sword according to his king's wishes
3. Not Guilty