129 replies to this topic

[Arthmail]

Roose Bolton, on 21 March 2013 - 03:58 AM, said:

Hitler, Stalin, and Saddam may not have had redeeming features, in the sense that nothing can redeem them morally, but they certainly had attributes other than mere moustache-twirling. Hitler liked Wagner's music and German Shepherd dogs, Stalin was incredibly well-read, and so on. Baron Harkonnen is so over the top (right down to the homosexuality) that he is impossible to take seriously. He's a cartoon.

So who cares though? Hitler liked music and dogs. If you met him briefly, which is really all we get to do with the Baron, you would know nothing of that. We do not see Baron Harkonnen in his regular life, only the moments where he is scheming. I don't care to see him floating along on a suspensor belt walking his dogs, or enjoying a good book by the fire. That does not interest me. Also, again, though he gets more screen time than any other villain he is not truly the main villain. He is a tool of greater forces.

There has been a trend for the last decade or more to show all facets of the villain, to fully flesh them out beyond showing their primary motivation. Baron Harkonnen's primary ambition was to see House Atriedes destroyed and to live long enough to do so, so there is a side plot detailing his struggles with his heir. But aside from that, aside from the crucial movtivations of his character, i don't really give much of a shit.

[Toby Frost]

"Put the pick in there, Pete, and turn it round - real neat."

I like the film (probably the sanest thing Lynch has ever done) because it looks amazing. I like the book as well, although on re-reading I realised that the first half was much more entertaining than the second, mainly because the interesting characters and the complex politics were killed off and replaced by holy war and interchangeable adoring Fremen. Also the whole jihad bit has, er, lost some of its novelty these days, whereas the weird Landsraad/Houses Major structure is really interesting. Also, according to Wikipedia, the Landsraad is the name of the Parliament of Greenland.

[Clueless Northman]

Shryke, on 28 January 2013 - 10:47 PM, said:

I don't see any "Red Wedding" in it at all. "Horrible tragedy wipes out the hero's family" is how tons of stories start.
The Red Wedding is shocking because it happens way, way later in the story.

Except it's not at the start of the story. Leto is killed right at the middle of the book, after you've spent half the novel with him; yes, you can guess Paul is the main character and not his dad, but his dad looks like the 2nd most important character all along.

[Gormenghast]

I have a question.

The third appendix in the first book reads like a list of plot holes. I'm wondering, are those questions answered in later books or it's only the pretense a solution may exist? I thought the book was self contained and that those questions had a more simple answer: "a wizard did it".

But now that I found them in the book means that they are certainly not overlooked by Herbert. So what is he up to? He already had a long term plan in mind?

[Gormenghast]

Anyway, I finished the book as well my weirding review about stuff I seem the only one to notice.

I'm really curious about that question, but please don't spoiler.

[Toshio.Keepiru]

Gormenghast, on 23 March 2013 - 06:39 PM, said:

But now that I found them in the book means that they are certainly not overlooked by Herbert. So what is he up to? He already had a long term plan in mind?

I think he had definite ideas if not all of the exact details about those ideas in mind when he wrote Dune.   It feels to me like when he wrote Dune it Frank Herbert wasn't decided on writing more books in that universe or not.  However, once he did start continuing the story he new where he wanted to take it.

The fact that he didn't write the sequel(s) to Chapterhouse: Dune is a definite loss for science fiction.

[Shryke]

Clueless Northman, on 23 March 2013 - 04:15 PM, said:

Except it's not at the start of the story. Leto is killed right at the middle of the book, after you've spent half the novel with him; yes, you can guess Paul is the main character and not his dad, but his dad looks like the 2nd most important character all along.

It still happens at the start of the Hero's Journey. It's the "his village gets wiped out" from your standard fantasy novel.

The Red Wedding is like if Paul gets a knife in the back after drinking the water of life and surviving.

[Tears of Lys]

Someone said upthread that Bakker's work is more like Dune than WoT is.  It got me to musing that maybe Achamian could fulfill the Duncan Idaho role.

Don't want to say much more because of, y'know, spoilers and such.

[kingofashes]

Eponine, on 23 January 2013 - 03:43 PM, said:

I second this but want a real answer. Most of what I've seen Dune fans say about it is basically, "if you don't agree that it's good, you suck." I can't remember anyone ever explaining WHY it's worth reading.

Above everything else is the amazing story. It's complex, It's massive, it's full of pathos and full of great characters. Plus it's easy to get into, so even someone who isn't used to sci-fi should be able to read it.

I've read Dune about 3 times and I'm due a reread soon.

[lockesnow]

iirc, Dune was written as a serial and then revised into novel form over many years, so the appendix may be pointing towards sequels but also deepening the study, and perhaps retconning plot holes.