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The Princess and the Queen [SPOILERS]


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As much of it as survives the encounter with Euron and the rest of the ships from the iron islands, and assuming that Euron does not manage to pen Lord Paxter's ships up in Oldtown harbor.

It seems to me more likely that Euron stayed in Westeros rather than sailing with the Iron Fleet. If so there is little chance that Lord Paxter will "sweep the ironmen from the sea" as Lord Mace so foolishly says.

Euron and the Ironmen will be crushed at Oldtown.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Pretty nice, OneEyedRaven in response to Lord Varys:

Since my guess is that George read from the beginning of The Princess and the Queen, I have a few questions you guys might be able to answer without taking notes:

1. Why is Rhaenyra on Dragonstone when her father dies?

2. How do things unfold after Queen Alicent and her father have 'convinced' the Small Council to crown Aegon II? Is there a violent coup? What role does Ser Criston Cole play? He is supposed to be remembered as the Kingmaker...

3. Any glimpse on Rhaenyra's sons, her husband, Aegon II, his siblings, and any other Targaryens in the capital or on Dragonstone?

4. Have dragons appeared yet?

1. She was on bed rest since she was pregnant

2. The master of coins Beesbury objected and was killed by Cole.The coup was fairly silent as they kept the kings death secret. Cole also crowned Aegon II.

3. Yes we hear about all 6 of her sons and learn thather first husband was a velaryion and her second was her uncle, I think Daemon Targaryen. We also learn that Aegon II had two younger brothers and married his sister Helena.

4. Yes. There was a lot of talk about dragons. Rhaeneryas side has 9 (plus 3 wild) and Aegon only has 4 dragons. They talk about taming the wild dragons and then send her two boys as emissaries to the vale the north and storms end.

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Pretty nice, OneEyedRaven in response to Lord Varys:

1. She was on bed rest since she was pregnant

2. The master of coins Beesbury objected and was killed by Cole.The coup was fairly silent as they kept the kings death secret. Cole also crowned Aegon II.

3. Yes we hear about all 6 of her sons and learn thather first husband was a velaryion and her second was her uncle, I think Daemon Targaryen. We also learn that Aegon II had two younger brothers and married his sister Helena.

4. Yes. There was a lot of talk about dragons. Rhaeneryas side has 9 (plus 3 wild) and Aegon only has 4 dragons. They talk about taming the wild dragons and then send her two boys as emissaries to the vale the north and storms end.

Interesting stuff.

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To continue the debate from the other thread here:

Really great.



Is it clear with whom Rhaenyra is pregnant at the beginning of the story? If it turns out to be Viserys II - which is not unlikely - then he may turn out to be one of the causes of the Dance.



As to the coup: Are there any other Targaryens beside Alicent's children present in the city? Any other siblings or cousins of Viserys I, and if so, how do they react to this development? Does Ser Otto survive the whole coup thing, or is he already replaced? Apparently, Ser Tyland Lannister is eventually going to become Aegon's Hand (which also seems to indicate that the Lannisters declare for Aegon II)?



The Hightower Targs: Are all of Aegon's brothers on his side, or are they/some of them indifferent or even against the coup?



It's interesting to see that Alicent's daughter, Helena, has a non-Valyrian name. She may be a Targaryen, but she is also a Hightower, and naming Aegon II 'Aegon' can be read as a political statement as well (that he should be king).



Dragons: If Rhaenyra has nine dragons (plus the wild ones), where are they? With her on Dragonstone, or with the others in the Dragonpit? Any mentioning of historical dragons we already know about? Vhagar should be still around, if he is already mentioned, is he already ridden by Aegon's brother Prince Aemond?



Meraxes and Balerion should be dead, but are Quicksilver - Aenys's dragon - and Silverwing - Queen Alysanne's dragon - still around? How big is Rhaenyra's she-dragon Syrax, assuming that she appears?



Rhaenyra's side: How old is Rhaenyra at the beginning of the story? Has she only six sons, or are there daughters as well? My guess is that she was somewhat older than one might have thought, well past thirty, perhaps even close to forty. How old are her older sons? How old is Aegon III if he appears? Are Aegon III and Viserys II her only sons from uncle Daemon, or do they have more?



Any mention as to why Daemon Targaryen could be this Über-Targaryen he is supposed to be? Really great though that Rhaenyra did marry her uncle. That sort of incest was mentioned in the appendix of AGoT but actually never realized until now in the family tree we know as of yet.



Mystery Targs: Any word on Rhaenys Targaryen, The Queen Who Never Was? Is she Viserys's I Targaryen mother as some of us have speculated? If so, did she abdicate in favor of her son? Anything on Baela Targaryen? A cousin/aunt to Rhaenyra and Aegon? Apparently she is not Aegon's little sister-wife...

Are the (future) dragon-rider Nettles and Alys Rivers, the bastard-seer one and the same?

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Really great. Let's continue this discussion over here: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/79950-the-princess-and-the-queen/page-24

Thank you very much One-Eyed-Raven!

Is it clear with whom Rhaenyra is pregnant at the beginning of the story? If it turns out to be Viserys II - which is not unlikely - then he may turn out to be one of the causes of the Dance.

As to the coup: Are there any other Targaryens beside Alicent's children present in the city? Any other siblings or cousins of Viserys I, and if so, how do they react to this development? Does Ser Otto survive the whole coup thing, or is he already replaced? Apparently, Ser Tyland Lannister is eventually going to become Aegon's Hand (which also seems to indicate that the Lannisters declare for Aegon II)?

Are all of Aegon's brothers on his side, or are they/some of them indifferent or even against the coup?

It's interesting to see that Alicent's daughter, Helena, has a non-Valyrian name. She may be a Targaryen, but she is also a Hightower, and naming Aegon II 'Aegon' can be read as a political statement as well (that he should be king).

If Rhaenyra has nine dragons (plus the wild ones), where are they? With her on Dragonstone, or with the others in the Dragonpit? Any mentioning of historical dragons we already know about? Vhagar should be still around, if he is already mentioned, is he already ridden by Aegon's brother Prince Aemond?

Meraxes and Balerion should be dead, but are Quicksilver - Aenys's dragon - and Silverwing - Queen Alysanne's dragon - still around? How big is Rhaenyra's she-dragon Syrax, assuming that she appears?

How old is Rhaenyra at the beginning of the story? Has she only six sons, or are there daughters as well? My guess is that she was somewhat older than one might have thought, well past thirty, perhaps even close to forty. How old are her older sons? How old is Aegon III if he appears? Are Aegon III and Viserys II her only sons from uncle Daemon, or do they have more?

Any mention as to why Daemon Targaryen could be this Über-Targaryen he is supposed to be? Really great though that Rhaenyra did marry her uncle. That sort of incest was mentioned in the appendix of AGoT but actually never realized until now in the family tree we know as of yet.

Any word on Rhaenys Targaryen, The Queen Who Never Was? Is she Viserys's I Targaryen mother as some of us have speculated? If so, did she abdicate in favor of her son? Anything on Baela Targaryen? A cousin/aunt to Rhaenyra and Aegon? Apparently she is not Aegon's little sister-wife...

Are the (future) dragon-rider Nettles and Alys Rivers, the bastard-seer one and the same?

As to Helena, wife and sister of Aegon II, perhaps you simply pronounce it Helena, but write it as Helaena? (or Haelena)

No other non-Valyrian wives have ever picked non-targaryen names. Maester Aemon says ( I believe in aGoT) that his grandfather king Daeron had named him. So whoever is king has a big say in the name of the child I think.

Though of course it is possible for king Viserys to have been influenced a lot by his wife about the names of their children. But since they had at least two sons with a Targaryen name (Aegon and Aemond), I'm guessing you just pronounce Helena differently than how you pronounce it.

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Yeah, it could be spelled 'Haelena'.



Great to learn that Daemon Blackfyre apparently has been named after his paternal grandfather. The only other Daemon Targaryen we know is one of the Lords of Dragonstone from before the Conquest. But the Über-Targ surely should have given Daena inspiration enough to name her son. And it's certainly no coincidence that no Targaryen we know of has been named Daemon after the whole Blackfyre thing (although I'm quite sure that there were more than two Daemon Blackfyres).



Any hint as to whether Rhaenyra's uncle is comfortable with his role as Prince Consort? Is he on her council? Who is named her Hand? We know that Ser Lorent Marbrand eventually became Lord Commander of the Queensguard. Any word as to who ended on her Queensguard? And her council?


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Rhaenyra's second husband was her uncle? To me, it points to Viserys having at least some inkling about his wife's ambitions. It looks like he tried to give Rhaenyra's position an additional boost by marrying her to such a close uber relative. Although that begs the question where was this uber man at the time of Viserys' death. Was he with Rhaenyra at Dragonstone? If the division between blacks and green had been so clear for a while, wouldn't it make sense for Daemon to be in the capital with the dying king to defend his wife's claim, respectively his own?



And Rhaenyra's first husband being a Velaryon might explain why her son Aegon III wed a lady of this House. The ties between Targaryens and Velaryons had been strenghtened relatively recently with Rhaenyra's own marriage. Just because her sons with her Velaryon spouse died, that would hardly make the House less traitorous in Aegon II's eyes. They really had no choice but stick with Aegon III and marrying their daughter to him was a logical end of the situation.


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Back when Rhaenyra's first husband was supposed to be Lord Lyonel Strong, he was also supposed to be Viserys's Hand. That fact also indicated that Viserys wanted to put his daughter into a position of power. That way, it's not impossible that her Velaryon husband now is also Viserys's new Hand of the King. His early death then caused her to remarry. I'd not be surprised if she chose her uncle rather than her father. This Daemon guy is apparently a really infuriating guy. If he is like Oberyn, he may not have been there when Rhaenyra first married. I still imagine him as some sort of irresponsible traveling guy, not really caring about power and politics, and thus being not a real help up until the Dance.



Perhaps Rhaenyra expected him to take over as Hand for her first husband, but he declined. Viserys then turned to Ser Otto?



It will be interesting to see how much children of Rhaenyra's children are from him. Only Aegon and Viserys, or are one or two of the elder sons also from Daemon? If Rhaenyra was pregnant with Viserys II when her father died, this may explain why he was named after her father...


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If this Daemon is like Oberyn, it might make sense that he did his adventuring but at the end, did what the dull, non-athletic, and competent king told him to, namely entering a marriage. After all, from what we saw of Oberyn, he does have a great respect for Doran.



After that, he might have gone off to his merry ways.



I don't think Rhaenyra was expecting Viserys II then. Ages are not right. The Dance started in 129 AL and Viserys was a great-grandfather by 171 AL. Even if Viserys, Aegon, and Daeron all married early and consummated their marriages as soon as they were physically able to and their children were born when they were 13 and 14, it still leaves sickly Naerys a mother in her very early teens. They wouldn't have taken the risk to kill her with such an early childbirth.


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No, Lord Lyonel Strong is gone. She had a Velaryon, and her uncle, Prince Daemon Targaryen.



I guess this makes sense. If Aegon's III first marriage did not produce any children because his queen, Aegon's II only daughter, possibly even his only child, was still a babe at the outbreak of the Dance, and thus only 2-3 when they married, it makes no sense to assume that Viserys II, whose children are considerably older than Aegon's, was about the same age as Aegon's II daughter.



Thus we should assume that Viserys II was perhaps only one of the younger sons of Rhaenyra, maybe not even the youngest.


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No, Lord Lyonel Strong is gone. She had a Velaryon, and her uncle, Prince Daemon Targaryen.

I guess this makes sense. If Aegon's III first marriage did not produce any children because his queen, Aegon's II only daughter, possibly even his only child, was still a babe at the outbreak of the Dance, and thus only 2-3 when they married, it makes no sense to assume that Viserys II, whose children are considerably older than Aegon's, was about the same age as Aegon's II daughter.

Thus we should assume that Viserys II was perhaps only one of the younger sons of Rhaenyra, maybe not even the youngest.

So that means all of Aegon III 's children were not from Aegon II daughter.

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Aegon's III children were all from his second queen, another Velaryon, apparently the daughter of a Lord Velaryon who also served as his Regent after the Dance (at least for a time, if the stuff about the army of regents in 'The Blood of the Dragon' is correct).



Aegon III was forced to marry his uncle's daughter to end the war. We don't know yet if the girl died during a miscarriage (if she was impregnated, she may have still been very young) or of sickness. I could see Aegon III refusing to consummate the marriage. He seems to have been a very rigid man, and I'm quite sure this thing with his uncle's dragon and his mother made him not exactly like the queen that was forced upon him. But he may have also realized that nothing of this was his wife's fault. So we really don't know what happened there.


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Lord Varys, above you said that Rhaenyra could be pregnant with Viserys II at the outbreak of the war, and that that could very well have been a cause of the Dance. I personally don't think she could possibly be pregnant with him, since Aegon III should be close to ten years old and Viserys was one or two years younger than his brother. But I am very curios as to why you would think that his birth could have been a reason for the outbreak of the Dance?

Please elaborate on that :)

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Rhaenyra's side: How old is Rhaenyra at the beginning of the story? Has she only six sons, or are there daughters as well? My guess is that she was somewhat older than one might have thought, well past thirty, perhaps even close to forty. How old are her older sons? How old is Aegon III if he appears? Are Aegon III and Viserys II her only sons from uncle Daemon, or do they have more?

I think she didn't have daughters. I base it on the number of dragons each side own: Aegon's side had 4 - his own, Helaena's, and his two brothers'. Rhaenyra's side had 9: hers, her 6 sons', and presumably Daemon's. If she had daughters, they presumably each would have a dragon of their own.

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