CosimaistheHottest Posted October 13, 2013 Share Posted October 13, 2013 I think she didn't have daughters. I base it on the number of dragons each side own: Aegon's side had 4 - his own, Helaena's, and his two brothers'. Rhaenyra's side had 9: hers, her 6 sons', and presumably Daemon's. If she had daughters, they presumably each would have a dragon of their own. Don't forget that sometimes there aren't enough dragons to go around and sometimes just because one has Targaryen blood doesn't mean one will bond with a dragon. Girl or Boy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sertravisredbeard Posted October 13, 2013 Share Posted October 13, 2013 Doesn't Tyrion mention Aegon III and Viserys II being present to witness their mother being killed by a dragon? If Rhaenyra was pregant with Viserys when the war started surely he wouldn't be old enough to remember watching his mother being kiled by a dragon at the end of the Dance. Sorry if I'm wrong about that, I'm not sure how long the war lasted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CosimaistheHottest Posted October 13, 2013 Share Posted October 13, 2013 The child could have been stillborn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anath Posted October 13, 2013 Share Posted October 13, 2013 Don't forget that sometimes there aren't enough dragons to go around and sometimes just because one has Targaryen blood doesn't mean one will bond with a dragon. Girl or Boy. Entirely possible. I just think it's a curious coincidence. Besides, Aegon III's marriage was to cement the peace, but when Aegon II's daughter died, he wed a Velaryon girl. If he had a sister, he would have surely wed her. Combined with the fact that we never hear about any daughters of Rhaenyra's and the number of dragons, I think she just didn't have any daughters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CosimaistheHottest Posted October 13, 2013 Share Posted October 13, 2013 Entirely possible. I just think it's a curious coincidence. Besides, Aegon III's marriage was to cement the peace, but when Aegon II's daughter died, he wed a Velaryon girl. If he had a sister, he would have surely wed her. Combined with the fact that we never hear about any daughters of Rhaenyra's and the number of dragons, I think she just didn't have any daughters. Of course. I have also thought that if she had daughters we would have heard about them so it is likely not. Do we know who Viserys II married? Because it is possible, Aegon III marrying Aegon II's daughter to cement the peace. Viserys II married their sister so once Aegon II's daughter died there wouldn't be any sister available for him to marry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrimeRhaegar Posted October 13, 2013 Share Posted October 13, 2013 So the plot thickens a name for uber targ and the first instance of a uncle/niece marriage in the family. Can someone answer me something, what about the other dragons? I mean there were at least 19 targ dragons and we know Balerion and merexes have died. Rharnyra had 9 and aegon 4 what about the other 4. Or did i miss read something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archibald Big Man Posted October 13, 2013 Share Posted October 13, 2013 Question, will we get an opportunity to buy only this story, or will we have to buy the whole anthology? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anath Posted October 13, 2013 Share Posted October 13, 2013 Of course. I have also thought that if she had daughters we would have heard about them so it is likely not. Do we know who Viserys II married? Because it is possible, Aegon III marrying Aegon II's daughter to cement the peace. Viserys III married their sister so once Aegon II's daughter died there wouldn't be any sister available for him to marry. Souns logical. We'll have to wait and see. If they did have a sister, she must have been their age or slightly older since Viserys seem to have fathered his children quite young, so the theory of a mother even younger than him isn't all that plausible. He might have married a sister of half-sister, if Rhaenyra had daughters from her Velaryon husband. If so, Lord Velaryon's position as a Regent would become stronger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted October 13, 2013 Share Posted October 13, 2013 My point with Viserys II being the cause of the war referred to Rhaenyra's pregnancy being the apparent cause for her being not present at KL when her father died. Had she been in KL the coup of the Greens most certainly would have not worked, so no Dance. Me thinking Rhaenyra only giving birth to Viserys at the beginning/during the war was only a funny idea I had. That was not really thought through... But it was only Aegon III who saw her death. Viserys was not present. Anath, Rhaenyra, Daemon, and all her six sons only make them eight, assuming that all her sons are old enough/capable of riding dragons. I doubt that. But even if we assume that Aegon III, Viserys II, and any younger sons she still might have, ride there own dragons, at least one Rhaenyra's dragons have to be ridden by another Targaryen. And there are still two Targaryens we don't know anything. Princess Rhaenys Targaryen (The Queen Who Never Was) and Baela Targaryen. She now obviously is not Aegon's II sister-wife. If Rhaenyra has no daughters they have to be either sisters of Viserys I and Daemon, or the aunts/cousins of either Viserys or Rhaenyra. My favorite guess for Rhaenys is still that she is Viserys's I ancient mother who passed the Iron Throne on to her son. She may have been the chosen heir of the Old King. I'd not be so quick to dismiss the chance that Rhaenyra had at least one daughter. She may have not survived the Dance. She may have become the wife of Viserys II. Six sons do seem like an overkill to me. Even Daemon Blackfyre had seven sons and some daughters. But anyway, I very much doubt that all of Rhaenyra's sons had their own dragons. I assume that 3-4 were old enough to ride them at the outbreak of the war, and it's quite likely that some of the younger sons were forced to start the dragon-riding business during the war, but I very much doubt that Viserys II was ever a rider. Even Aegon III most likely was too young to mount a dragon, although it's not impossible that he was forced to bind a with a dragon when the war was fought in his name. But if there were sons of Rhaenyra who were even younger than Aegon III and Viserys II, I'm quite sure they never had a dragon of their own. So it's quite likely that a good portion of Rhaenyra's dragons were not ridden by Targaryens who were not her sons or her husband. As to the size of the dragons: If Rhaenyra's dragons mostly lived on Dragonstone, and if it is true that the Dragonpit slowed the growth of the dragons, then it's not impossible that her dragons were bigger than the younger dragons of Aegon's faction (not counting Vhagar, of course!). It seems as if the Targaryens put no restraints on their dragons on Dragonstone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anath Posted October 13, 2013 Share Posted October 13, 2013 Anath, Rhaenyra, Daemon, and all her six sons only make them eight, assuming that all her sons are old enough/capable of riding dragons. I doubt that. But even if we assume that Aegon III, Viserys II, and any younger sons she still might have, ride there own dragons, at least one Rhaenyra's dragons have to be ridden by another Targaryen. And there are still two Targaryens we don't know anything. Princess Rhaenys Targaryen (The Queen Who Never Was) and Baela Targaryen. She now obviously is not Aegon's II sister-wife. If Rhaenyra has no daughters they have to be either sisters of Viserys I and Daemon, or the aunts/cousins of either Viserys or Rhaenyra. My favorite guess for Rhaenys is still that she is Viserys's I ancient mother who passed the Iron Throne on to her son. She may have been the chosen heir of the Old King. I'd not be so quick to dismiss the chance that Rhaenyra had at least one daughter. She may have not survived the Dance. She may have become the wife of Viserys II. Six sons do seem like an overkill to me. Even Daemon Blackfyre had seven sons and some daughters. But anyway, I very much doubt that all of Rhaenyra's sons had their own dragons. I assume that 3-4 were old enough to ride them at the outbreak of the war, and it's quite likely that some of the younger sons were forced to start the dragon-riding business during the war, but I very much doubt that Viserys II was ever a rider. Even Aegon III most likely was too young to mount a dragon, although it's not impossible that he was forced to bind a with a dragon when the war was fought in his name. But if there were sons of Rhaenyra who were even younger than Aegon III and Viserys II, I'm quite sure they never had a dragon of their own. So it's quite likely that a good portion of Rhaenyra's dragons were not ridden by Targaryens who were not her sons or her husband. :D Right.I checked my post and I saw that I didn't include Rhaenyra's last child, the one she expected then. Headcount is hard! I don't think all of Rhaenyra's sons were dragonriders, either. I think a few of them just owned the dragons, including one being kept for the unborn child. Which might partly explain why their side lost - it's not a particularly great use to have dragons and not actively use all of them. In the middle of the war, they were probably using whatever they had but binding riders (old enough to fight) to dragons would be no doubt slower than if those riders had already been bonded to the dragons. I imagine she got them as a part of establishing her position of power. For prestige, so to say. But of course, we'll wait and see. I am quite fascinated with your theory of Rhaenys Targaryen. I hope it'll turn out to be true! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted October 13, 2013 Share Posted October 13, 2013 Well, I think you cannot 'own' a dragon and not being its rider. What we know about this whole thing is that you get a dragon when you bond with it. So it would be rather stupid to call Rhaenyra's toddlers 'dragonriders' or 'dragon-owning princes' if they were not actually capable of riding them. Thus I think Rhaenyra did not reserve any dragons for her younger sons, especially now that a war broke out. She would have given them to any dragon-blooded relatives she could trust. The very fact that there are three wild dragons among Rhaenyra's twelve strongly suggests that Rhaenyra had more dragons than riders. And I also got the impression that Rhaenyra's nine non-wild dragons had fully capable riders. But I could be mistaken there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ronin Posted October 13, 2013 Share Posted October 13, 2013 And WoW will never be published. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anath Posted October 13, 2013 Share Posted October 13, 2013 Well, I think you cannot 'own' a dragon and not being its rider. What we know about this whole thing is that you get a dragon when you bond with it. So it would be rather stupid to call Rhaenyra's toddlers 'dragonriders' or 'dragon-owning princes' if they were not actually capable of riding them. Thus I think Rhaenyra did not reserve any dragons for her younger sons, especially now that a war broke out. She would have given them to any dragon-blooded relatives she could trust. The very fact that there are three wild dragons among Rhaenyra's twelve strongly suggests that Rhaenyra had more dragons than riders. And I also got the impression that Rhaenyra's nine non-wild dragons had fully capable riders. But I could be mistaken there. Maegor chose his dragon decades before his father died. Balerion accepted him. To me, that shows that it's the rider choosing the dragon, not the other way around. Sure, I suppose the dragon can still burn the wannabe rider but that's OT. It makes sense to me that dragons will be reserved for Rhaenyra's sons until they were old enough to ride them. Of course, when the Dance broke out, no one could wait for the boys to grow up, so the dragons had to go to whomever could ride them. Rhaenyra's sons would have to get new eggs or something if they survived, which at least one of them didn't, it seems. I definitely think the nine non-wild dragons had fully capable riders, too. I just think the original plan would always be to provide dragons for the members of the royal family first. Once they were fitted, others could have their share as well. Do we know how things unfolded immediately after Rhaenyra's death? My impression was that young Aegon was a captive and he stayed this way even while the Dance continied and he was proclaimed Aegon III by Rhaenyra's followers, so he wouldn't have the chance - or horror - to bond with a dragon. Aegon II wouldn't exactly let him, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted October 13, 2013 Share Posted October 13, 2013 Balerion was Aegon's I dragon. He was only free to bond with Maegor upon Aegon's death. That's why Maegor refused to choose a young dragon in his youth. The problem with the dragons is that you can only get a really big dragon if the former rider dies. If your father or mother rides, say, Vhagar or Balerion, you have to wait until die/hope they die soon (Maegor) or take a smaller, younger dragon (Aenys). That's why I assume that Vhagar was Viserys's I dragon, and passed from him to his son Aemond. If things are this way, you cannot really reserve strong dragons for your children first. It's much more likely that a really powerful dragon passes from parent to (great-) grandchild. Trying to pull off a Maegor (hoping to get your father's dragon) may turn out to bite you in the ass. In the end you may turn out to get no dragon at all... As to Aegon III: We do not know. If I was Aegon II - who apparently was a really nasty piece of work - I'd have fed both Rhaenyra and Aegon to my dragon if I had the chance. Let the Daemon and his allies crown Viserys instead. But the way things may turn out to be Rhaenyra's death may not have been an execution but rather some sort of sneak attack/skirmish/battle, with Aegon III being present but not ending up in Aegon's II clutches. I'd also not be surprised if Rhaenyra died only in the last months of the war. No idea yet how long the war was fought in the name of Aegon III, nor if the war was continued by Aegon's II faction after he died. I can imagine something like but if Aegon's II only heir was his daughter, then I can see his allies continue to fight without actually crowning her. The whole war was supposed to prevent a woman from ascending the Iron Throne so they could not possibly declare her their queen. I'd not be surprised if that was the dilemma that ended the war... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneEyedRaven Posted October 14, 2013 Share Posted October 14, 2013 Well, I think you cannot 'own' a dragon and not being its rider. What we know about this whole thing is that you get a dragon when you bond with it. So it would be rather stupid to call Rhaenyra's toddlers 'dragonriders' or 'dragon-owning princes' if they were not actually capable of riding them. Thus I think Rhaenyra did not reserve any dragons for her younger sons, especially now that a war broke out. She would have given them to any dragon-blooded relatives she could trust. The very fact that there are three wild dragons among Rhaenyra's twelve strongly suggests that Rhaenyra had more dragons than riders. And I also got the impression that Rhaenyra's nine non-wild dragons had fully capable riders. But I could be mistaken there. Hey so that number of nine includes her sons (who were sent as emissaries). Obviously the older 4 boys (Aegon 3 was her 2nd youngest) died so they must have participated in the Dance at some point. The book also notes the difficulties of finding riders for the dragons (a la non Targs). In the reading she was concerned that her sons were two young but they were 15 and 16 so she gave them "easy" jobs of reaching out to the Vale (who had a female lady paramount), the North (those noble Starks!) and the Storm Lands. Also George confirmed that her two oldest sons were bastards from her affair with a Strong and her next son from her Velarayon husband. The final 3 are with Daemon Targaryen. She gave birth to a stillborn "dragon" baby (like Dany or Tyrion) due to the stress of the news of her half-brothers usurping. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneEyedRaven Posted October 14, 2013 Share Posted October 14, 2013 No, Lord Lyonel Strong is gone. She had a Velaryon, and her uncle, Prince Daemon Targaryen. I guess this makes sense. If Aegon's III first marriage did not produce any children because his queen, Aegon's II only daughter, possibly even his only child, was still a babe at the outbreak of the Dance, and thus only 2-3 when they married, it makes no sense to assume that Viserys II, whose children are considerably older than Aegon's, was about the same age as Aegon's II daughter. Thus we should assume that Viserys II was perhaps only one of the younger sons of Rhaenyra, maybe not even the youngest. I think Viserys was the youngest child of the 6, with Aegon being a little older than him (not sure since the reading didnt cover the younger ones' ages). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneEyedRaven Posted October 14, 2013 Share Posted October 14, 2013 Hey so that number of nine includes her sons (who were sent as emissaries). Obviously the older 4 boys (Aegon 3 was her 2nd youngest) died so they must have participated in the Dance at some point. The book also notes the difficulties of finding riders for the dragons (a la non Targs). In the reading she was concerned that her sons were two young but they were 15 and 16 so she gave them "easy" jobs of reaching out to the Vale (who had a female lady paramount), the North (those noble Starks!) and the Storm Lands. Also George confirmed that her two oldest sons were bastards from her affair with a Strong and her next son from her Velarayon husband. The final 3 are with Daemon Targaryen. She gave birth to a stillborn "dragon" baby (like Dany or Tyrion) due to the stress of the news of her half-brothers usurping. This baby was a girl btw. so she had 6 boys and no girls (one stillborn). The baby was also noted to not have a heart along with the other dragon-like deformities. Sorry I'm just trying to catch up with this forum give everything that I remember since obviously some of you guys couldnt be there. Hope it helps! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Feldman Posted October 14, 2013 Share Posted October 14, 2013 Thank you, great stuff OneEyedRaven! In the reading she was concerned that her sons were two young but they were 15 and 16 Which sons were 15 and 16? Her oldest sons (the Strong bastards), or her youngest two (Aegon III and Viserys II)? Overall the picture is becoming clearer, and this is what I'd speculate: Rhaenyra had a high-profile affair with her father's Hand, Lyonel Strong, and had two bastard sons with him. Then Lyonel died and Otto Hightower replaced him as Hand, likely at the suggestion of his daughter Queen Alicent Hightower, which contributed to overall tensions between the "greens" and the "blacks." Let me know if anything I said contradicts what you heard in the reading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queen Alysanne™ Posted October 14, 2013 Share Posted October 14, 2013 This baby was a girl btw. so she had 6 boys and no girls (one stillborn). The baby was also noted to not have a heart along with the other dragon-like deformities. Sorry I'm just trying to catch up with this forum give everything that I remember since obviously some of you guys couldnt be there. Hope it helps! :o The baby had dragon like deformities like Dany's Rhaego? Does this mean Valyrians have dragon blood in them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneEyedRaven Posted October 14, 2013 Share Posted October 14, 2013 The bastards were her oldest children . I thought I may have been mistaken on which were bastards. Of the oldest children, there were either 1 strong bastard and 2 velaryon or vice versa. It doesn't change the story much as Aegon ended up as king. Also this is off of my basic memory so apologies if I forget certain details Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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