Wheel of Time: total 1402's threads all merged...

[Poobah]

Peter this is a thread started by someone who is reading through the series for the first time, so spoilers is anything that's past where he is in the story.

[Brendan Moody]

What spoilers should we avoid?

The major ones for books the threadstarter hasn't read?

[peterbound]

I'm aware of all that. However, it's accessible to all. You can't assume based on the thread title 'wheal of time total 1402's threads all merged' that it's someone reading through. Fact is anyone could come in here and get the shit spoiled out of their WoT experience.

You can't pick and choose the spoilers to have in here. That's fucking silly. If you are going to make a big stink about it, it needs to stay consistent. If not, stop fucking bitching about what you consider a spoiler.

[Shryke]

People have been consistent. Everybody is avoiding talking about anything that happens after the books he's already read.

[Shryke]

Oh I can stand idealism but not STUPID idealism like avoiding hurting women in a society where women fight and kill like men. Or refusing to inflict a punishment you have the right to do on a bad bad BAD woman yourself because this must be left to the higher authorities in your mind and you don't like the idea of summarily stilling her. I guess there is an element of human shields with the damane especially. Although the damane clearly have been brainwashed to fight for the seanchan so kind of are willing accomplices in this. I could understand looking for other options if for instance if they were captured Aes Sedai, our people, essentially; but not taking that risk all the time.

All the Two Rivers guys have a streak of "don't kill women" idealism. It gets treated as a problem, trust me.

[Which Tyler]

But he certainly wouldn't be happy if they decided to better themselves. Weren't there a couple that displeased him, so he killed them and brought them back in ugly bodies or something like that?

ETA to hide spoilers, fionwe, please edit your post too ;)

total - don't read this

The DO actively encourages the forsaken to scheme against each other; with the fittest surviving - up until he names a leader for them, at which time, they're welcome to scheme against each other, so long as they obey the overall strategy laid out by the Nae'blis). The DO hasn't killed any of the forsaken, Rand has, and Moiraine got a couple; and those not killed by balefire were brought back, in extremely attractive bodies, of the opposite sex for 2 of them

PB This thread has been entirely consistent that we're trying to avoid spoilers for 1402, some mistakes along the way, but generally corrected as soon as we'd realised. I'd say that it's pretty obvious throughout that this is his/her thread; even for someone reading just the thread title and first post.

[Poobah]

Book 13/14 spoilers :

Greandal is killed by the DO / SH so she can be put in that ugly body

[total1402]

Managed to read some of Nyaeve n Elaynes stuff and it finally got interesting. I am actually starting to like the whole meanagerie thing as well; even if they REALLY should be leaving it if Moghdian knows they're in a meanagerie. Most importantly, Nyaeve has dyed her hair red! :D

I actually think Birgette, the hero archer, should have stayed dead. I felt quite sorry for Nyaeve screwing up that much and it sort of took away from that when it turns out she was just kicked into reality. I also felt it was slightly contrived that no act of healing did the trick, but bonding her as a warder somehow stopped her dying; this didn't make a lot of sense to me. Plus, I sort of felt that Nyaeve screwing up was something which would cause her to rethink her issues. However the other characters actually seem to be saying the exact opposite, making apologies for her behavior, asking her to snap out of it and that shes not being her usual spirited self. This seems to go against the other characters often despairing at Nyaeves flaws before and almost wishing she would change. Now a dramatic event makes her rethink this and shes now got people saying shes a silly girl for over-reacting. Not sure I follow that one. Regarding Birgette she seems like quite a badass.

[Shryke]

The Warder bond likely saves her because it ties her to the world. She's not dying from any physical ailment, she's sort of ... fading away.

Also, people want Nynaeve to perhaps think a bit more about her actions and admit other people can be right too and to stop bullying others. They don't want her to descend into moping and self-pity.

[total1402]

Okay just read the ridiculously huge battle at Cairhein. How many people did Rand n the girls just kill with the One Power? I mean I thought the Seanchan n what Moraine did first book was OP but its been so long since anything like that happened I was quite shocked. Without Callandor as well. I guess I can kind of understand why Nyaeve n Elayne don't like being coddled if they're both walking tactical nukes... No telling, but I wonder how powerful Nyaeve would be if she tried something similar when angry. Also, what Asmodean says about comparing women as strong in the power as men being as rare as those who are physically strong with women focusing on linking. Is it implied Nyaeve pretty much is one of those women?

Also, Matt seems to have lots of different memories from the Trolloc wars and this constellation of generals. Does he also have Arthur Hawkwings memories? Or can he not because Hawkwing is tied to the Horn of Valere and hence those memories are tied to his soul in the dreamworld?

[fionwe1987]

Okay just read the ridiculously huge battle at Cairhein. How many people did Rand n the girls just kill with the One Power? I mean I thought the Seanchan n what Moraine did first book was OP but its been so long since anything like that happened I was quite shocked. Without Callandor as well. I guess I can kind of understand why Nyaeve n Elayne don't like being coddled if they're both walking tactical nukes... No telling, but I wonder how powerful Nyaeve would be if she tried something similar when angry. Also, what Asmodean says about comparing women as strong in the power as men being as rare as those who are physically strong with women focusing on linking. Is it implied Nyaeve pretty much is one of those women?

Asmodean isn't completely honest, here. Yes, women hold a smaller volume of the Power. But they're more efficient in using it, which means they equal anything men can do with it, and to the same degree.

Also, Matt seems to have lots of different memories from the Trolloc wars and this constellation of generals. Does he also have Arthur Hawkwings memories? Or can he not because Hawkwing is tied to the Horn of Valere and hence those memories are tied to his soul in the dreamworld?

You'll find out why he has the particular memories he has.

[Shryke]

Nynaeve I believe, once she reaches her full potential, is up there with some of the strongest women, but not as strong as a women can possibly be. (As I remember, Lanfear is basically the top, Graendal and Semirhage are like a step below and I think Nynaeve is a step below that or something)

Also, Mat's memories are explained in more detail later, but no he doesn't have Hawkwing's memories.

[fionwe1987]

Nynaeve I believe, once she reaches her full potential, is up there with some of the strongest women, but not as strong as a women can possibly be. (As I remember, Lanfear is basically the top, Graendal and Semirhage are like a step below and I think Nynaeve is a step below that or something)

Per Brandon, Nynaeve is as strong as Semirhage. We don't know where she stands in relation to Graendal.

[total1402]

You know. When I was reading the scene with Matt wanting to leave and Asmodean studying him I was so certain that he would end up inadvertantly going through that portal to Seanchan land like Rand did. Since the propecies and dreams hint some sort of a connection with Matt n S-land and most importantly; Matt has shitty luck. Its luck, but its still shitty from his POV. It also slightly cartoonish how hes trying to escape this tall domineering Aiel and the poor bastard can't get away. But still funny.

So have Egwene and Aviendha equalled or excelled Moraine in terms of destruction magic at this point? I know Moraine couldn't join in because of the 3 oaths and the Shaido not being darkfriends. Although I find that debatable since Asmodean gave Couldhin the tatooes and if he commands the Shaido then the Shaido serve the shadow and a forsaken. I am pretty sure darkfriends have taken over armies and people who are unaware of whats going on; how can the white tower deal with them if they are serving the shadow unawares. Then again Rand hasn't told anyone about that.

Bit peeved I didn't get to see Matt n Couldhin duel mind.

[fionwe1987]

So have Egwene and Aviendha equalled or excelled Moraine in terms of destruction magic at this point?

Firstly, it isn't destruction magic. There's no such thing. And Egwene is definitely stronger in the One Power than Moiraine at this point, but Moiraine is still more experienced. However, Egwene's training with the Damane probably does make her better at destructive weaves of a larger scale. Aviendha is also likely stronger than Moiraine, though she's not yet as strong as Egwene. Her skill level is debatable.

I know Moraine couldn't join in because of the 3 oaths and the Shaido not being darkfriends (although I find that debatable since Asmodean gave Couldhin the tatooes and if he commands the Shaido then the Shaido serve the shadow and a forsaken). Then again Rand hasn't told anyone about that.

Being duped by the Shadow doesn't make you a Darkfriend, though. And Moiraine was more useful as a Healer anyway, seeing as she was the most skilled Healer around Rand.

[total1402]

Woah, woah, woah, woah.

Galad is Rands half brother? Did I read that right? If his mother was once the Queen of Andor who went into the Aiel Waste.

Okay, seriously, is it incest if him and Elayne are together? I know Trakand and the previous queen are different but presumably Morgase would have had some sort of blood relation to the previous queen in order to be considered?

I know its meant to be this grand lineage for Rand but its just making me go ewww at the minute.

[David Selig]

Woah, woah, woah, woah.

Galad is Rands half brother? Did I read that right? If his mother was once the Queen of Andor who went into the Aiel Waste.

Okay, seriously, is it incest if him and Elayne are together? I know Trakand and the previous queen are different but presumably Morgase would have had some sort of blood relation to the previous queen in order to be considered?

I know its meant to be this grand lineage for Rand but its just making me go ewww at the minute.

Didn't you reach the part where it's explained straight away it's not incest at all? Morgase and Tigraine were very distant cousins, if they weren't high nobles, nobody would consider them related at all.

[total1402]

Didn't you reach the part where it's explained straight away it's not incest at all? Morgase and Tigraine were very distant cousins, if they weren't high nobles, nobody would consider them related at all.

Mr Jordans awefully quick to state its not incest isn't he? I think its mentioned they were from different noble houses but presumably its still by blood decent. Also, "very distant cousins". If Rand told me him and Elayne were just distant cousins I might call bull on that. :D

BTW, Galad is Rands half brother, I wasn't quite sure if it was the same Galad?

[David Selig]

Mr Jordans awefully quick to state its not incest isn't he? I think its mentioned they were from different noble houses but presumably its still by blood decent. Also, "very distant cousins". If Rand told me him and Elayne were just distant cousins I might call bull on that. :D

He didn't really need to state it. Obviously Morgase and Tigraine weren't sisters (there wouldn't have been a succession war), so Rand and Elayne could be second cousins at the closest and that's not incest for the vast majority of people and in nearly all jurisdictions.

[total1402]

Haven't really had much time to read Wheel of Time but got a few chapters read this week and...

Egwene is the Amyriln...

How? :o

They have spent the whole series treating the girls like crap and lording over issues of rank. Making them scrub pots and pans or other petty punishments for the slightest offence. But, they think Egwene is awesome now?

I don't even get why they would pick her over Elayne. So far Elayne seems as strong, has discovered plenty of new talents and is skilled in making ter angreals. She seems a much more obvious candidate and they've seen her abilities first hand. Nobody in the tower has met Egwene in a long time so how on earth would they have been able to gauge the strength of her abilities anyway? IMO, it did feel a little bit forced because Elayne is going to be Queen in the plot and so can't be Amyrlyn as well.

Also, why do the Aes Sedai think they rule the world? Its like Matt arrives and they expect him and his army to obey them; even imply bonding him as a warder to keep him under control. I am pretty sure the saviour rebirthed by the Pattern is more important and outranks you in the grand scheme of things. I aslo think their moral justification for this authority is really pretty weak, essentially they have superpowers; so everyone must obey them. Rand gets away with this because hes Jesus. But I just find that extremely arrogant. I am not keen on the extent to which Egwene and the girls associate themselves with and identify with the Aes Sedai. They've only been there for a few years and most of that was spent away from the tower or Aes Sedai in general. So if they've basiclly manifested their powers on their own it seems odd that they feel like they need to be Aes Sedai in the first place.

Plus, Matt is once again being treated like a piece of shit. :D My god, that man has never had a break. At least Perrin met a nice girl, saved the Two Rivers and got married. Now hes going to get screwed by the girls and Rand at the same time? I mean is Matt even a tavern? That ability seems very selective at times. For Perrin it seemed to affect both genders and they all thought he was mega awesome. But poor Matt seems to only make the lads and the soldiers like him. If anything Matts having himself pulled around by the girls and not the other way around; even though hes meant to be the Tavern?

Incidently, I think I mentioned this earlier but, I don't like a lot of the secrets, clannish/groupie behavior and people going behind eachothers backs. I feel this isn't like ASOIAF where this sort of thing has major repurcussions. For instance Tyrion/Cersei in ACOK and their power games lead to a massive fallout they never recover from. I doubt that Matt is ever going to end up fighting Aes Sedai, no matter how much he says he doesn't like them, or that the Salidar Aes Sedai will target Rands Dragonsworn if not try to bind him themselves or go it alone. So a lot of this just tends to get very annoying, very fast since the characters abrasiveness doesn't really go anywhere.

I really don't like Elayne in a few of these chapters. Tens of thousands of her people will die needlessly in pointless rebellions if she doesn't return because people think Rand has stolen them. Yet Elayne's response on learning this is to do a Balon Greyjoy "hes going to give me them!" and start raving about the Ironprice or something. Elayne, people will die, this isn't about you deciding who gets to be on top with Rand; stop making this a trivial personal matter. Please.

Also, I am convinced Galad is going to end up in charge of the Whitecloaks at some point; which I would like to see. Likely after most get destroyed by the Seanchan in Ebou Dar.