98 replies to this topic

[Blue Rose Direwolf]

Eddward Stark, on 29 January 2013 - 08:01 PM, said:

I hope you're wrong about this particular one.  Bran's been dealt a bad hand (then again, what Stark kid hasn't??); he needs to live out his life before retiring to the tree!  He only needs to be near some weirwood, not necessarily in that cave, in order to do his job.  Maybe he'll become Lord of the Isle of Faces.     Okay, just kidding about the last part.

I hope I'm wrong too. He deserves to get out and fly. But I think he'll do that by warging with animals and flying in their bodies, not actually flying in his own body. In keeping with GRRM's style of writing, no one gets so much power without giving up a lot to have it. There's a price for everything.

[Apple the Great]

KatieStar, on 30 January 2013 - 12:04 AM, said:

I didn't said that he couldn't dream about or want that anymore. Gee, even he eventually choose to be a rebel and live his dreams. But as you say, if I ask a boy but Bran isn't any boy. You think that a great mind like him could be wasted on been just a knight who ride dragons for joy? He never walk again. I think that's a fact. He has Summer for that and can travel time and space with his mind. Of course, there's a missing link about how Bran will deal with all of that and how will be applied to contribute with the war against the Others.

Bran is 10 at the time of ADwD, I think most people would say he's still a boy. Blimey, if he's still thinking 'oh, I must be in love with Meera' rather than, 'I wonder what Meera looks like under her small clothes?' then I'm pretty sure that indicates he's not really a "man grown". Bran is certainly mature for his age, but that's no need for him to give up on any dreams he may have had. With regards to "wasting" his mind on riding dragons and being a knight, firstly, is that really wasting? Secondly, it's really against the point I'm making, since what I actually think is that he can do both. I think he can leave the cave and still use his powers (Varamyr Sixskins didn't need to be in a cave to skinchange, so Bran needn't and Bran used the 'weirnet' when he wasn't in the Weirwood throne) so he can have the great mind that you talk about as well as having the adventure and the fame that he wanted, as well as a full life potentially. I'm not saying that it's going to happen, just I think it's possible. GRRM has been known to stamp all over my dreams before.

Blue Rose Direwolf, on 30 January 2013 - 03:50 AM, said:

Dude, I hope I'm wrong and you're right. I'd love for Bran to get out in the world and have a real life. But I don't think that'll happen. GRRM won't let Bran have so many powers and not sacrifice a great deal for them. I think Bran will probably become BR's successor and become a powerful greenseer in the North.

Blue Rose Direwolf, on 30 January 2013 - 03:53 AM, said:

I hope I'm wrong too. He deserves to get out and fly. But I think he'll do that by warging with animals and flying in their bodies, not actually flying in his own body. In keeping with GRRM's style of writing, no one gets so much power without giving up a lot to have it. There's a price for everything.

As if being paralysed from waist down isn't bad enough, eh ?

Edited by Apple the Great, 30 January 2013 - 10:27 AM.

[Blue Rose Direwolf]

Apple the Great, on 30 January 2013 - 10:26 AM, said:

Bran is 10 at the time of ADwD, I think most people would say he's still a boy. Blimey, if he's still thinking 'oh, I must be in love with Meera' rather than, 'I wonder what Meera looks like under her small clothes?' then I'm pretty sure that indicates he's not really a "man grown". Bran is certainly mature for his age, but that's no need for him to give up on any dreams he may have had. With regards to "wasting" his mind on riding dragons and being a knight, firstly, is that really wasting? Secondly, it's really against the point I'm making, since what I actually think is that he can do both. I think he can leave the cave and still use his powers (Varamyr Sixskins didn't need to be in a cave to skinchange, so Bran needn't and Bran used the 'weirnet' when he wasn't in the Weirwood throne) so he can have the great mind that you talk about as well as having the adventure and the fame that he wanted, as well as a full life potentially. I'm not saying that it's going to happen, just I think it's possible. GRRM has been known to stamp all over my dreams before.


As if being paralysed from waist down isn't bad enough, eh ?

Exactly.

Edited by Blue Rose Direwolf, 30 January 2013 - 11:34 AM.

[Lion of Judah]

Apple the Great, on 23 January 2013 - 08:48 PM, said:

If Robb did die without getting Jeyne Westerling pregnant, as Robb's younger brother, surely Bran has the strongest claim to Winterfell and being King in the North? I know he is a cripple, and is currently lost north of the wall under a tree, but these are not insurmountable obstacles and I feel like I'm taking crazy pills when I see people mentioning Rickon and Jon Snow ahead of him. For sure, Rickon is a healthy lad, easily accessible on Skagos, but Wyman and Davos know that Bran is alive, as does Rickon, and they would thus know that Bran has the stronger claim (and Davos would be sure to tell Stannis that Bran lives). Lord Snow has already rejected Winterfell and I suspect he would again if he isn't dead.

Despite being a cripple, Bran has extraordinary powers that theoretically would allow him to control a dragon. It is surely possible that Bran could control a dragon while he, Hodor and Meera sat on it's back and flew south. Equally possible is Bran going to the Weirwood tree in Winterfell surely, if he needs a tree - I don't buy the theory that Bran has to stay under the specific weirwood tree that the Three-Eyed Crow is under, nor do I think Bran has to stay under a tree if he doesn't want to. Maybe this is all crackpot dreams borne out of love of Bran and house Stark so if people want to tell me why this can't be right, please do, I just can't understand why people keep on passing over Bran.

Also, on a different Stark related note, why does everyone seem to assume Sansa wants to kill Littlefinger. I'll mourn Littlefinger, the crafty b*stard.

Jeyne was not pregnant, her parents were slipping her moon tea to prevent her from conceiving a child.

[Apple the Great]

Lion Of Judah, on 30 January 2013 - 07:32 PM, said:

Jeyne was not pregnant, her parents were slipping her moon tea to prevent her from conceiving a child.

It may not have been Jeyne... see various conspiracy theories.

[Lion of Judah]

Apple the Great, on 30 January 2013 - 09:55 PM, said:

It may not have been Jeyne... see various conspiracy theories.

It's been confirmed in the AWOIAF app, she wasn't preggers.

[Apple the Great]

Lion Of Judah, on 30 January 2013 - 10:05 PM, said:

It's been confirmed in the AWOIAF app, she wasn't preggers.

Then Bran is the King in the North!

Edited by Apple the Great, 30 January 2013 - 10:37 PM.

[BrosBeforeSnows]

Bran has surrendered his life to the darkness. He won't be coming out of that tree until it's time for him to defeat Jaime in his role as Fenrir/Garmr.

In the earliest mythology, Fenrir and Garmr were interchangeable. The Bound Wolf was the Hellhound, and the Hellhound was the Bound Wolf. Of course, Jaime is obviously Tyr - the one-handed god of combat - and is also Bran's arch-nemesis (i.e. Jaime & Bran are at the heart of the story. It was their conflict -- i.e. the things I do for love -- that set everything else into motion).

And, I think the symbolism is pretty clear. Not only is Bran associated with wolves, he's associated with "bound wolves", just like Fenrir. Similarly, he is under the influence of a mischievous shapeshifter in Bloodraven -- i.e. Loki. So, it all starts adding up.

Granted, it took me forever to make the connection between Fenrir and Garmr. For the longest time, I thought Garmr was Sandor Clegane (i.e. Hellhound = the Hound... makes sense). But, I was reading about Norse mythology in its earliest incarnation and Garmr and Fenrir were the same figure.

Similarly, Odin & Thor didn't come into prominence until the Viking Age. Prior to that, Tyr was the primary god in their pantheon (equivalent to the Indo-European Dyeus -- i.e. Azor Ahai). So, one can see how the Ragnarok battles might've gotten mixed up in the later mythology. Fenrir is supposed to swallow Odin, and Garmr is supposed to defeat Tyr. But in the earliest mythologies, Fenrir was Garmr and Tyr superseded Odin. So, there you have it: Jaime vs. Bran. Azor Ahai vs. the Great Other.

And consider, some of you may wonder how Jaime can possibly be a god since he's been so ruthless throughout the series. But if you recall Cersei's words from GRRM's Blackwater episode from the TV show, "The Gods have no mercy". There you go. That's a pretty big clue.

Here's how it works (loosely):

The First Men represent the Jötnar. The Children of the Forest represent the Dwarves (in Norse mythology, the Dwarves wield magic and build magical things for the giants and gods).

The Andals represent the Vanir and the Targaryens represent the Æsir.

The Merciless gods:

Vanir:
Walder Frey = Freyr (fertility god -- which is clever as all hell)
Margaery Tyrell - Freya (fertility goddess -- which is ironic, given her virginity trial).

Æsir:
Jaime = Tyr (the one-handed god of combat)
Cersei = Frigg (the queen of Asgard)
Aerys = Odin (the mad god)
Robert Baratheon = Thor (the storm lord)
(mind you, House Baratheon is a bastard offshoot of House Targaryen, just as Thor was Odin's bastard -- And, likewise, Jaime & Cersei are hidden Targaryens. That's the reason Ilyn Payne had his tongue cut out... because he knew).

The merciful giants:
Bran = Fenrir (the bound wolf)
Jon Snow = Surtr (the black)
Dany = Jormundgandr (the world serpent)

You may ask, isn't Dany a Targaryen? What makes her a jotnar, then? The answer: Bloodraven - Loki. Bloodraven is part Targaryen and part First Man, just as Loki was part god and part giant. He is the bridge that straddles both worlds. And Loki's children are not his actual flesh and blood. They are characters that he ends up exerting influence over, like Bran. So, what can we deduce from that? Dany, in her role as Jormundgandr, will eventually make her way to Bloodraven, as will Melisandre, in her role as Hel.

Anyway, that's my story, and I'm sticking to it. I've gone into great detail about this in previous posts, but that's the basic idea.

It would be one thing if only Jaime & Bran fit the mold. But ASOIAF is rife with Norse symbolism. I mean, Ragnarok is literally the song of ice & fire. So, it's even in the title of the series.

[Eddward Stark]

I think the parallels above are very interesting, but I wouldn't personally use them to draw conclusions about the ending of the story.  Even if Martin consciously or subconsciously used this mythology as inspiration, he also drew upon other works as inspiration, such as Lord of the Rings, as well as plenty of historical events and battles.  It's difficult for me to believe that Martin would go so far as to parallel a story so closely that the ending and future interactions of certain characters are predictable.

I have read plenty of people's theories about Bran metaphorically "going into darkness," and I don't buy it one bit.  Just because Melisandre thinks of the Old Gods as the "dark" to her god's "light," that doesn't mean that Martin thinks this way, or at least not in a way that implies they are evil or wicked.  I think people are getting very confused because of Melisandre's very biased opinions of every religion that is not hers, and then people think dark = bad, maybe because of the "dark side" in Star Wars or something.  It's grabbing at straws.  Everyone in this story has flaws (one of the themes of this whole saga), but Bran is undoubtedly one of the characters that is the most pure of heart.

[Blue Rose Direwolf]

BrosBeforeSnows, on 31 January 2013 - 11:45 AM, said:

Bran has surrendered his life to the darkness. He won't be coming out of that tree until it's time for him to defeat Jaime in his role as Fenrir/Garmr.

In the earliest mythology, Fenrir and Garmr were interchangeable. The Bound Wolf was the Hellhound, and the Hellhound was the Bound Wolf. Of course, Jaime is obviously Tyr - the one-handed god of combat - and is also Bran's arch-nemesis (i.e. Jaime & Bran are at the heart of the story. It was their conflict -- i.e. the things I do for love -- that set everything else into motion).

And, I think the symbolism is pretty clear. Not only is Bran associated with wolves, he's associated with "bound wolves", just like Fenrir. Similarly, he is under the influence of a mischievous shapeshifter in Bloodraven -- i.e. Loki. So, it all starts adding up.

Granted, it took me forever to make the connection between Fenrir and Garmr. For the longest time, I thought Garmr was Sandor Clegane (i.e. Hellhound = the Hound... makes sense). But, I was reading about Norse mythology in its earliest incarnation and Garmr and Fenrir were the same figure.

Similarly, Odin & Thor didn't come into prominence until the Viking Age. Prior to that, Tyr was the primary god in their pantheon (equivalent to the Indo-European Dyeus -- i.e. Azor Ahai). So, one can see how the Ragnarok battles might've gotten mixed up in the later mythology. Fenrir is supposed to swallow Odin, and Garmr is supposed to defeat Tyr. But in the earliest mythologies, Fenrir was Garmr and Tyr superseded Odin. So, there you have it: Jaime vs. Bran. Azor Ahai vs. the Great Other.

And consider, some of you may wonder how Jaime can possibly be a god since he's been so ruthless throughout the series. But if you recall Cersei's words from GRRM's Blackwater episode from the TV show, "The Gods have no mercy". There you go. That's a pretty big clue.

Here's how it works (loosely):

The First Men represent the Jötnar. The Children of the Forest represent the Dwarves (in Norse mythology, the Dwarves wield magic and build magical things for the giants and gods).

The Andals represent the Vanir and the Targaryens represent the Æsir.

The Merciless gods:

Vanir:
Walder Frey = Freyr (fertility god -- which is clever as all hell)
Margaery Tyrell - Freya (fertility goddess -- which is ironic, given her virginity trial).

Æsir:
Jaime = Tyr (the one-handed god of combat)
Cersei = Frigg (the queen of Asgard)
Aerys = Odin (the mad god)
Robert Baratheon = Thor (the storm lord)
(mind you, House Baratheon is a bastard offshoot of House Targaryen, just as Thor was Odin's bastard -- And, likewise, Jaime & Cersei are hidden Targaryens. That's the reason Ilyn Payne had his tongue cut out... because he knew).

The merciful giants:
Bran = Fenrir (the bound wolf)
Jon Snow = Surtr (the black)
Dany = Jormundgandr (the world serpent)

You may ask, isn't Dany a Targaryen? What makes her a jotnar, then? The answer: Bloodraven - Loki. Bloodraven is part Targaryen and part First Man, just as Loki was part god and part giant. He is the bridge that straddles both worlds. And Loki's children are not his actual flesh and blood. They are characters that he ends up exerting influence over, like Bran. So, what can we deduce from that? Dany, in her role as Jormundgandr, will eventually make her way to Bloodraven, as will Melisandre, in her role as Hel.

Anyway, that's my story, and I'm sticking to it. I've gone into great detail about this in previous posts, but that's the basic idea.

It would be one thing if only Jaime & Bran fit the mold. But ASOIAF is rife with Norse symbolism. I mean, Ragnarok is literally the song of ice & fire. So, it's even in the title of the series.

Owww, very interesting theories!

[Apple the Great]

Eddward Stark, on 31 January 2013 - 02:59 PM, said:

I think the parallels above are very interesting, but I wouldn't personally use them to draw conclusions about the ending of the story.  Even if Martin consciously or subconsciously used this mythology as inspiration, he also drew upon other works as inspiration, such as Lord of the Rings, as well as plenty of historical events and battles.  It's difficult for me to believe that Martin would go so far as to parallel a story so closely that the ending and future interactions of certain characters are predictable.

I have read plenty of people's theories about Bran metaphorically "going into darkness," and I don't buy it one bit.  Just because Melisandre thinks of the Old Gods as the "dark" to her god's "light," that doesn't mean that Martin thinks this way, or at least not in a way that implies they are evil or wicked.  I think people are getting very confused because of Melisandre's very biased opinions of every religion that is not hers, and then people think dark = bad, maybe because of the "dark side" in Star Wars or something.  It's grabbing at straws.  Everyone in this story has flaws (one of the themes of this whole saga), but Bran is undoubtedly one of the characters that is the most pure of heart.

I agree, GRRM obviously has been influenced by a lot of things, but I really don't see him basically copying Norse mythology. But it's an interesting and new theory, BrosBeforeSnows. I can't remember the thread but a girl was getting very tedious about Bran going down a dark path due to her theory that the CotF were evil and using blood magic. It wasn't so much her argument that was annoying, it was how she was presenting her opinion as fact that was. I'm glad no one has done that on this thread.

[bemused]

I don't think we should get too stuck in a replication of Norse mythology. On the other hand , there are threads ( hello , you likeable Heretics  ) where I think people have gone too far into Celtic mythology....We have to assume that George will have his own wrinkles and differences added in.

George has addressed the sources of the various religions more than once. The first I saw stated the Norse religion was his source for the religion of the Old Gods. I've since seen one that pointed out Norse , and various Celtic , Northern European influences ( some of the HBO info ?) ..and in our world , lots of similar beliefs and ideas permeate all of those old mythologies.

He always seems to mention Norse first , and I do think we should consider it our starting point.( or the predominant influence )... But, he talks about the Norse Religion which is not quite the same thing as the mythology. And I've noticed some very tempting commonalities between Val, Dalla , Morna and Tormund with the reports of how the Norse religion was practiced ( female seers, leader/priests, wise women/healers ,  etc. ) ...But George hasn't shown us yet how strong those commonalities are in his imagining...


That doesn't mean that echos and similarities to Norse deities don't exist ( It's very difficult to NOT see Ygdrassil and Odin in the weirwoods and Bloodraven ).. but is Bran then Odin-in-training ? I think there's more to both BR and Bran than stand-ins for Odin ( or Loki or Fenrir etc. )... And the Old Gods are not named , not differentiated one from the other ( that we yet know ) They're a commune , sort of. ( and he has mentioned animism as well, I think.)

The thing is we can't know how much or how little he adopted until he writes it..and I believe he's said he doesn't do straight allegory.

Edited by bemused, 04 February 2013 - 06:54 PM.

[The Dragon has three heads]

I don't think GRRRM Would use Norse mythology and repeat it verbatim.
That being said. The obvious parallels are there and have perhaps served as inspiratipn or helped fill out a charactors story.  I think the end battles/outcomes have to change. Unless.  ASOIF is ragnarok.  But that's a step too far.

[Prince Bran]

Blue Rose Direwolf, on 30 January 2013 - 03:50 AM, said:

Dude, I hope I'm wrong and you're right. I'd love for Bran to get out in the world and have a real life. But I don't think that'll happen. GRRM won't let Bran have so many powers and not sacrifice a great deal for them. I think Bran will probably become BR's successor and become a powerful greenseer in the North.

As others have pointed out, he was crippled as a child and has recently lost his brother, father, mother, and Winterfell to betrayals, so the notion that his life has been all party all the time with zero sacrifice doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

Bran is BR's successor as a greenseer, but that doesn't mean he's stuck in the cave. As far as we can tell, now that he's eaten the paste he's incredibly powerful/can access stuff without plugging into the weir-network. Again, as far as we can tell, the reason BR is half-tree at this point is to extend his life, so that he could live long enough for Bran to reach him. Now, if (as some have suggested) BR or the CoTF possess malign designs and Bran has been duped, then it may be true that he'll be unable to ever leave the cave. But if they aren't, then there isn't a particularly good reason for him to stay there.

Due to his powers, Bloodraven was a force to be reckoned with in his youth/adulthood, and he didn't feel the need to tree-up until he was already an old man. It stands to reason then that Bran would also be a force to be reckoned with if/when he goes back south -- I personally think that Martin would love to write that, instead of keeping Bran as a static tree historian.

After all, Bran has all the trappings of a legendary hero plucked right out of the history of westeros (or one of Old Nan's stories), does he not? He's a Stark who was crippled as a boy by a Lannister, had his father executed by an inbred Lannister King, had his brother become King in the North only to be betrayed in a plot orchestrated by the Lannisters, before finally losing Winterfell and -- as far as the realm has known, his life -- to the turncloak Theon Greyjoy. Down but not out, he's becoming a warg/greenseer of unrivaled power. The idea of a crippled Stark boy becoming a feared (if theories about Bran's descent are correct) Warg-King-in-the-North is exactly the sort of thing that the tales are full of. It all seems too fantastic to be true, yet it is.

None of this is to say that Bran will have a happy ending -- how many of those legendary heroes of old had happy endings? -- but I will strongly argue that there are far more interesting things (I've only ventured one of many) that Martin can -- and almost certainly will - do with Bran than have him spend his life as a tree historian.

Edited by Prince Bran, 06 February 2013 - 07:14 AM.

[sumant30]

Quote

and i doubt Jeyne Westerling is pregnant because the show obviously didnt deem her important enough to stay true to her charachter bio, i could be wrong though, maybe they didnt introduce her as a westerling because they wanted to keep the amount of hired people down (her family, robbs squires etc) but i find the latter unlikely.

I am finding it really sad that people are finding clues from the show rather than the books, please do remember that show is from the books.

[GrandPoobah]

The thing to realize with all the focus on legalities is that birthright or no, the leader with the most swords/ships who uses them most effectively is more likely to gain and maintain power.

A birthright can certainly bring swords to his banner, but we need to remember that Viserys had a better claim to the Iron Throne than anyone. Was anyone in Westeros (past Doran) even dreaming of trying to put him on the Iron Throne?

As far as anyone who's not in the cave with Bran knows, Bran is dead. That could get a bit complicated when/if Rickon/Osha appear, but I doubt it matters much unless he actually makes an appearance. Which he's rather unlikely to. Rickon is useful to Manderly in that he can be used to help supplant the Boltons while easing the minds of other northern lords over his apparent betrayal of the Starks in favor of Joffrey/the Freys. If Manderly unites the North, that leaves him to run things until Rickon matures. Which makes for a fair bit of time to feather his own nest...

[Apple the Great]

GrandPoobah, on 06 February 2013 - 09:40 AM, said:

The thing to realize with all the focus on legalities is that birthright or no, the leader with the most swords/ships who uses them most effectively is more likely to gain and maintain power.

A birthright can certainly bring swords to his banner, but we need to remember that Viserys had a better claim to the Iron Throne than anyone. Was anyone in Westeros (past Doran) even dreaming of trying to put him on the Iron Throne?

As far as anyone who's not in the cave with Bran knows, Bran is dead. That could get a bit complicated when/if Rickon/Osha appear, but I doubt it matters much unless he actually makes an appearance. Which he's rather unlikely to. Rickon is useful to Manderly in that he can be used to help supplant the Boltons while easing the minds of other northern lords over his apparent betrayal of the Starks in favor of Joffrey/the Freys. If Manderly unites the North, that leaves him to run things until Rickon matures. Which makes for a fair bit of time to feather his own nest...

You're assuming that Manderly wants to rule the north via Rickon in some kind of 'kingmaker' situation. I'm not ruling it out and it's a plausible theory, but, "the North remembers" and even Manderly's granddaughter, Wylla, knows the debt of gratitude that the Manderlys owe the Starks. There is nothing about Wyman in the novels so far to make me think that he has any desire to power play or to orchestrate things behind the scenes - rather he lives to revenge himself upon the Boltons and Freys and to eat. Rickon may be a useful figurehead for the North to rally around, but do you think that Rickon, Wyman and then, perhaps more importantly, Davos are going to keep Bran's survival a secret? Do you think that Davos wouldn't at least tell Stannis? By Jove! Do you think that once Rickon is known to be alive, people are not going to question whether Bran lived as well and whether Theon 'Turncloak' was lying about them both? What about Sam the Slayer?

I, like many others, have yet to see a convincing argument that Bran will have to stay in the cave, and if he doesn't have to, I've yet to see a compelling argument why he would stay in the cave. And when he leaves the cave I suspect that he'll make at least one visit to Winterfell.

[DurararaFTW]

Davos, Manderly, Rickon and Sam all know Bran is alive. Also Howard Reed probably cares where his children have gone off too. It's gonna come up.

[summer_stark]

Apple the Great, on 07 February 2013 - 09:33 AM, said:

You're assuming that Manderly wants to rule the north via Rickon in some kind of 'kingmaker' situation. I'm not ruling it out and it's a plausible theory, but, "the North remembers" and even Manderly's granddaughter, Wylla, knows the debt of gratitude that the Manderlys owe the Starks. There is nothing about Wyman in the novels so far to make me think that he has any desire to power play or to orchestrate things behind the scenes - rather he lives to revenge himself upon the Boltons and Freys and to eat. Rickon may be a useful figurehead for the North to rally around, but do you think that Rickon, Wyman and then, perhaps more importantly, Davos are going to keep Bran's survival a secret? Do you think that Davos wouldn't at least tell Stannis? By Jove! Do you think that once Rickon is known to be alive, people are not going to question whether Bran lived as well and whether Theon 'Turncloak' was lying about them both? What about Sam the Slayer?

I, like many others, have yet to see a convincing argument that Bran will have to stay in the cave, and if he doesn't have to, I've yet to see a compelling argument why he would stay in the cave. And when he leaves the cave I suspect that he'll make at least one visit to Winterfell.

Afuckingmen