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Did you like the the change of Stannis on the Blackwater?


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#1 GarthKITN

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 06:26 PM

My apologies if this belongs in the T.V. section, I wasn't sure. In ACOK, Tyrion describes Stannis as commanding much like Tywin does, by leading from the rear and not being directly involved in the fighting. In the show however, this is completely turned around. Stannis leads the storming of the Mud Gate himself, and is the first man over the wall when the ladders go up. I think, and this is just my opinion, that the producers of the show made this switch to show that Stannis isn't just going to talk about what is "owed" to him by rights (kind of what Dany has been doing the entire series on the show), he's going to take it.

Personally, I loved the change. Loved it. This was where Stannis became one of my favorite characters. I don't know why really, but the way he leads the attack and is right in the thick of the fighting, it made me go "okay, this guy isn't just talk. He means business. He's a King". Does that make sense?

#2 Ramsay Gimp

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 06:32 PM

I liked it as well. "Come with me and take this city!" it was exhilerating

Though literally being the first up the ladder, and not even wearing a helmet or suit of armor, was a bit much. If they were worried about not recognizing him, they could have given him a distinctive flaming helm or something or had it knocked off early in the battle.

#3 otherbeef

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 06:48 PM

thought it was a good way to highlight the difference between Stannis and Joffrey particularly

#4 GarthKITN

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 06:52 PM

I liked it as well. "Come with me and take this city!" it was exhilerating

Though literally being the first up the ladder, and not even wearing a helmet or suit of armor, was a bit much. If they were worried about not recognizing him, they could have given him a distinctive flaming helm or something or had it knocked off early in the battle.


One of the best lines I've EVER heard. When you consider that his entire fleet has just been burnt to cinders, and then he says that, you just kind of sit back and go "wow, this guy is NOT screwing around. Here we freaking go". Aside from getting me fired up, it made me really get Stannis, all in one line.

And yeah, I get what you're saying about the no helmet or real armor, but none of the heroes or villains of the show seem to wear helmets. I mean, two scenes later Tyrion has a helmet on, but he loses almost instantly. I don't think Robb has ever worn a helmet. Just kind of how it is.

#5 Ser Wun Wun

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 06:54 PM

I liked it, yes. IIRC,GRRM has said that he kind of regrets not making Stannis more of a warrior from the beginning of the series as well.

I liked a lot of the stuff they did with Stannis on the show. They made it clear that he was having sex with Mel, that he knew what she did to kill Renly (and that he showed remorse for it), and then of course watching him choke her out was pretty funny.

Edited by Ser Wun Wun, 24 January 2013 - 07:39 PM.


#6 GarthKITN

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 06:54 PM

thought it was a good way to highlight the difference between Stannis and Joffrey particularly


I hadn't thought of this, but it makes a lot of sense. Joffrey spends a ton of time talking about how tough he is, as boys often do, but when it comes to it he runs. Whenever you hear Joffrey saying lines like "I plan to challenge Robb to single combat" or "I'll give Stannis a red smile", you just kind of cringe. But all Stannis has to do is say "Come with me and take this city" and charge the wall himself, and you see the difference.

Very good point.

#7 GarthKITN

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 06:56 PM

I liked it, yes. IIRC,GRRM has said that he kind of regrets not making Stannis more of a warrior from the beginning of the series as well.

I liked a lot of the stuff that did with Stannis on the show. They made it clear that he was having sex with Mel, that he knew what she did to kill Renly (and that he showed remorse for it), and then of course watching him choke her out was pretty funny.


I thought that was awesome as well, the scene with Mellissandre after the Battle on the Blackwater. You really get the sense that Stannis wants to believe in R'Hollor, but he doesn't. Not really. Not until she says "inside of you" and takes him to the flames and he really, finally sees.

#8 Castel

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 06:57 PM

thought it was a good way to highlight the difference between Stannis and Joffrey particularly


It was a better way to highlight the difference between Stannis and Tyrion imo. Tyrion gave a huge speech, appealing to men who probably hated the Lannistrers. Stannis however, being Stannis, had the most succint pre-battle speech ever and it worked.

#9 The Mountain That Posts

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 07:12 PM

I absolutely hate that episode, so so so much.

Not only is the battle utterly simplified(no chain, no flaming boat bridge, no wildlings attacking the scouts, no "Renly", etc.) but the battle itself makes no sense. There's no land army from Stannis, or if there is it isn't mentioned in the slightest, which makes no sense. The vast majority of Stannis's fleet is obviously destroyed from Bronn's godly arrow(which I found silly) but what was left of Stannis's forces just... what? Sailed AROUND the devastation? And then what was with that sudden major Stannis reinforcement army that came after Tyrion had seemingly defeated them? Also, there's no way they'd let the king lead the charge and go up the ladder first. And how the hell do they expect us to believe Stannis and whatever troops grabbed him were able to get away?

The battle changes ITSELF aside, the episode itself was rather obnoxious - the constant Sansa/Cersei cuts were very jarring even if they actually happened in the book, Sophie Turner absolutely SUCKED in this episode which is a shame because she was perfect in the first season IMO, the whole Bronn/Sandor standoff at the beginning was HORRIBLY forced and painful to watch(and another excuse to show us a naked woman), and Stannis leading the assault/battle itself is terribly out of character for Stannis. Personally, I always got the impression that Stannis COULD hold his own in a fight, but tends to not choose to fight himself - after all, I doubt he did much fighting while under siege at Storm's End and I kind of doubt he himself fought Victarion Greyjoy's Ironmen in Balon Greyjoy's first rebellion.

I WOULD have been fine with Stannis leading men to shore and fighting if he was armored like a king, he wasn't at the absolute front of the charge, his escape made more sense and if there was more emphasis on him giving orders and being a charismatic/genius strategist... rather than a fighting genius.

Other episode nitpicks: I feel like The National's Rains of Castamere honestly could've played in episode itself during a silent montage at the very end of the episode, when you see Tyrion in Pod's arms and whatnot I also think all the gore effects and whatnot in the episode were terribly cheesy and unrealistic, and the stupid-as-fuck Varys cocktease at the beginning of the episode(DID I EVER TELL YOU ABOUT MY BALLS GETTING CUT OFF? NO? I'LL TELL YOU LATER) was just infuriating. Especially since Varys had told Tyrion that embezzled story about himself to make Tyrion 1.) trust Varys slightly more, via Varys giving him a personal story and 2.) to make Tyrion certain that Varys wouldn't work for Stannis.

I also wish Sandor had borderline raped Sansa like what happened in the books, but then again, the show kind of failed at planting the Sandor/Sansa seeds early on so that would've been an awkward scene.

Actual HIGHLIGHTS of the episode, so positive words now! I do like how they handled the whole wildfire thing, as a whole, giving the budget they had. I thought the soundtrack, like always, was perfect. I thought the addition of Cersei about to poison Tom and herself was a cool and believable change. I REALLY liked what the episode did with Lancel. I love the actor who plays Pod, perfect actor for the role IMO even if they act kind of different.

Also, I wish there was an Edmure and thus a Edmure-letting-the-Lannisters-retreat-to-King's-Landing plot. Ah well. /sad.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':(' />

/major rant

Edited by The Mountain That Posts, 24 January 2013 - 07:15 PM.


#10 Zupoleon

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 07:15 PM

Yeah I think overall they've done a great job with Stannis on the show. I think he's a great character in the books as well, so I guess I'm just a little partial to Stan anyways...

#11 GarthKITN

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 07:42 PM

I absolutely hate that episode, so so so much.

Not only is the battle utterly simplified(no chain, no flaming boat bridge, no wildlings attacking the scouts, no "Renly", etc.) but the battle itself makes no sense. There's no land army from Stannis, or if there is it isn't mentioned in the slightest, which makes no sense. The vast majority of Stannis's fleet is obviously destroyed from Bronn's godly arrow(which I found silly) but what was left of Stannis's forces just... what? Sailed AROUND the devastation? And then what was with that sudden major Stannis reinforcement army that came after Tyrion had seemingly defeated them? Also, there's no way they'd let the king lead the charge and go up the ladder first. And how the hell do they expect us to believe Stannis and whatever troops grabbed him were able to get away?


Simply put, this just comes down to budget. At the end of the day, it's not a Lord of the Rings budget level production, and they couldn't afford to do some of the things expanded upon in the book, like Stannis having 80, 000 men or the chain shredding his fleet. In the episode, almost the entire battle is focused upon the Mud Gate, and I was fine with that. I just assumed that the rest of the war at other points of the city were going in a similar fashion. And I thought they made it fairly clear that the bulk of Stannis' fleet was decimated by the wildfire.

And, if the King wants to go, he's going to go. Look at Edward in the Battle of Agincourt. He led the freaking vanguard.

The battle changes ITSELF aside, the episode itself was rather obnoxious - the constant Sansa/Cersei cuts were very jarring even if they actually happened in the book, Sophie Turner absolutely SUCKED in this episode which is a shame because she was perfect in the first season IMO, the whole Bronn/Sandor standoff at the beginning was HORRIBLY forced and painful to watch(and another excuse to show us a naked woman), and Stannis leading the assault/battle itself is terribly out of character for Stannis. Personally, I always got the impression that Stannis COULD hold his own in a fight, but tends to not choose to fight himself - after all, I doubt he did much fighting while under siege at Storm's End and I kind of doubt he himself fought Victarion Greyjoy's Ironmen in Balon Greyjoy's first rebellion.

I WOULD have been fine with Stannis leading men to shore and fighting if he was armored like a king, he wasn't at the absolute front of the charge, his escape made more sense and if there was more emphasis on him giving orders and being a charismatic/genius strategist... rather than a fighting genius.


I thought the Sansa/Cersei stuff was awesome, to be honest, and I didn't feel the Bronn/Sandor stuff was forced. Both of their roles have been expanded in the show from what they do in the book, so it makes sense to give them additional scenes. In the commentary for one of the episodes one of the producers talked about how they were continually coming in short on run times for episodes, so they added more character scenes for non-POV characters like Tywin, Sandor and Bronn. I liked that, actually. I get the argument about Stannis leading the charage himself, and maybe it was a bit much, but the heroes in war movies rarely have helms on, that's just a fact of television. Agreed though, that Stannis' armor could have been cooler.

Other episode nitpicks: I feel like The National's Rains of Castamere honestly could've played in episode itself during a silent montage at the very end of the episode, when you see Tyrion in Pod's arms and whatnot I also think all the gore effects and whatnot in the episode were terribly cheesy and unrealistic, and the stupid-as-fuck Varys cocktease at the beginning of the episode(DID I EVER TELL YOU ABOUT MY BALLS GETTING CUT OFF? NO? I'LL TELL YOU LATER) was just infuriating. Especially since Varys had told Tyrion that embezzled story about himself to make Tyrion 1.) trust Varys slightly more, via Varys giving him a personal story and 2.) to make Tyrion certain that Varys wouldn't work for Stannis.

I also wish Sandor had borderline raped Sansa like what happened in the books, but then again, the show kind of failed at planting the Sandor/Sansa seeds early on so that would've been an awkward scene.


I LOVED The National's rendition of the Rains of Castamere. I thought Tywin's line and Loras Tyrell storming into the Throne room at the end had a big impact on the close of the episode, and starting the song earlier wouldn't have worked with that. The Varys stuff, yeah, I hear what you mean, but they've made Varys a pretty big hero in the series. I don't really get the sense that he's being disingenuous to Tyrion. And I thought the effects in the battle were freaking brilliant. We'd seen SO many battles up to this point breezed through and not shown because of budgetary reasons. Now we got one. We always, always HEAR about how tough and legendary a warrior Sandor Clegane and Bronn are. Now we actually see it. Stannis too.

And I was fine with the Sandor/Sansa scenes. The only problem was that they didn't make him frightening enough to justify her NOT going with him. I mean, by this point, the city is in ruins, the war is raging all around her and the one guy who has been defending her is offering to take her home to Robb and Winterfell, and she doesn't go for it? Lame.

#12 Ramsay Gimp

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 09:54 PM

And yeah, I get what you're saying about the no helmet or real armor, but none of the heroes or villains of the show seem to wear helmets. I mean, two scenes later Tyrion has a helmet on, but he loses almost instantly. I don't think Robb has ever worn a helmet. Just kind of how it is.


Not wearing armor in battle is bad enough, but what makes it worse is that it's inconsistent. Tywin and Joffrey were wearing armor, and Tyrion as well (like you said). But Stannis goes in wearing leather and no helmet or even chainmail, and they didn't even let the Hound wear his helm!! It's kind of bullshit, honestly. But the episode itself was grand

Edited by Ramsay Gimp, 24 January 2013 - 09:55 PM.


#13 DarkAndFullOfTurnips

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 09:59 PM

thought it was a good way to highlight the difference between Stannis and Joffrey particularly


While it also didn't really highlight the difference between Robert and Stannis, which is a pretty significant consideration when you think about Stannis' relationship with and feelings toward his brother. Charging in recklessly like a badass was cool, but it was so Robert. Stannis points out multiple times in the books that he's NOT Robert.

#14 TheGreyKraken

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 10:01 PM

Not wearing armor in battle is bad enough, but what makes it worse is that it's inconsistent. Tywin and Joffrey were wearing armor, and Tyrion as well (like you said). But Stannis goes in wearing leather and no helmet or even chainmail, and they didn't even let the Hound wear his helm!! It's kind of bullshit, honestly. But the episode itself was grand

Agreed, people aren't stupid enough to not recognize the characters in some armour , these little things like the Hound's helm help to give his a character a more unique feel.

#15 AlQohoric

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 10:11 PM

I had no problem with making Stannis a man of action for the Battle of the Blackwater. IIRC he had not been featured prominently in the previous episodes. It seems like the Lannisters and Starks got all of the screentime. People who did not read the books probably just saw Stannis as some disgruntled, grumpy dude who did nothing but pout about what is his by "rights".

#16 Son of a Harpy

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 10:18 PM

I thought it absurdly badass.

#17 Castel

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 10:25 PM

The Hound has a distinctive helm. We know it's him because we can see him. Visually it's not as fun if we can't see Stannis during the hectic battle.

#18 Ramsay Gimp

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 10:33 PM

The Hound has a distinctive helm. We know it's him because we can see him. Visually it's not as fun if we can't see Stannis during the hectic battle.


Then have the helmet show his face. Or have it get knocked off early. Or at least give him a suit of mail!

#19 TheKitttenGuard

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 11:02 PM

I think a reason Sandor did not have his helm we can see his face a reaction to the fire starting to get to him.
Also on Bronn/Sandor and naked women. Of all the gratious charges this just get me. Men are about to go to battle and could die. Why not have some your last moments with a drink and some beautiful nake women? Why does this get lumped in LF brothel (especially you S2/E2).

#20 The Mountain That Posts

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 11:14 PM

I think a reason Sandor did not have his helm we can see his face a reaction to the fire starting to get to him.
Also on Bronn/Sandor and naked women. Of all the gratious charges this just get me. Men are about to go to battle and could die. Why not have some your last moments with a drink and some beautiful nake women? Why does this get lumped in LF brothel (especially you S2/E2).


Because it's unnecessary either way? Some user on youtube took every scene from the first and second seasons where there was nudity, or implied sex(Renly bj for instance) and censored the image with captions about how each scene could be altered, changed, whatever. Literally, about 80% of the nudity is totally unnecessary.