433 replies to this topic

[Dolorous Nedd]

I'm totally shocked at the amount of posts I've seen on here lately either saying they don't like Jon or possibly worse yet people who say he is boring.  I have no idea how anyone paying attention to what they are reading could come to the conclusion that he is boring.  He has provided 90% of the POV of what is going on at the Wall and North of the Wall, which provides valuable insight into what is going to be one of the most important aspects of the story when all is said and done.  He has also done some really cool things which show what an honorable person he is, such as the way he saved Sam from a life of Hell.  Besides that he is nothing short of an awesome character and has a totally bad ass direwolf.  Without Jon we wouldn't have the pleasure of meeting characters like Dolorous Edd, LC Mormont, or Tormund Giantsbane either.

I know people who don't like Jon are in the minority but I'm just curious what bothers some people about him.  My theory is some people simply don't care for the different feel and setting the Jon and Bran chapters have as compared to the rest of the POV's.  Maybe it's nothing more than that.  I really enjoy the more rugged and supernatural aspect of the POV's from the North, but that's just me.

Edited by Dolorous Nedd, 27 January 2013 - 12:28 PM.

[PatrickStormborn]

What are you talking about?

There is literally one Jon Snow hater on the forum. At least 90% of the other members like him and a large portion direct their hate at other characters who might rival his narrative importance.

Some people find him boring, but that's not the same as "hate". That's just a matter of him being the character who fits the most cliched fantasy tropes despite GRRM promising to deconstruct said tropes.

[GillyTarly]

I love the hell of Jon. He was one of the first characters I liked off the bat. It took me awhile to like Dany and Tyrion. Jon reminds me of an emo kid in high school. He goes through a lot trials in his life. Jon is pretty much a smart hero.

[therealbando]

I don`t get it either. Jon was one of my favourite POVs to read.

[Mr Motte]

Jon is one of the most liked characters on this forum.

Compared to Dany, Cat, Sansa and some others, "Jon hate" is nothing.

[The Broke Howard Hughes]

I don't hate Jon but he lost a lot of MY sympathy when Ygritte died.  He ran off letting her think he'd abandoned her and she got herself killed soon after.  She even died wishing they'd have stayed together in the caves.  I wanted to gut punch him for that.  But maybe I'm overreacting.

[Theda Baratheon]

Actually, in all fairness to the OP; I've seen quite a few posts lately of people treating Jon with disdain.

I don't understand it either, he's one of my faves.

[GillyTarly]

He's up there in well-liked characters of the series. I don't see why people would hate him. Jon did a lot of things to keep the Wall safe and protected so far.


(I have not read the fifth book yet. I will soon as I can.)

[Winter's Knight]

...

Nobody (rational) hates Jon-he's just a bit bland for some folks, like me. There's a wide spectrum of characters in the books y'know, and one can't like all of them, Plus there is (inmnsho) a certain amount of story-related-contrivances that bores me about his storyline. I don't identify with him as much as I do with other characters-he just doesn't do anything for me, y'know? He neither excites me except for rare occasions ("Notch, draw loose..", "Edd, fetch me a block") nor does he enrage me. At best I feel for him what I feel for Bran: a faint sense of ennui and get-on-with-itness.

[NitzanLeo]

Though I do love Jon, I find that the OP's reasons for not finding Jon boring are horrible. A character can do the awesomest of things possible, but can still be boring as a character. If a character doesn't have progression, for instance, he can be found quite boring. I don't think that of Jon, obviously, but I just wanted to say that. I also didn't see any Jon hate threads or posts. Only silly people will hate Jon.

[Dolorous Nedd]

PatrickStormborn, on 27 January 2013 - 12:28 PM, said:

What are you talking about?

There is literally one Jon Snow hater on the forum. At least 90% of the other members like him and a large portion direct their hate at other characters who might rival his narrative importance.

Some people find him boring, but that's not the same as "hate". That's just a matter of him being the character who fits the most cliched fantasy tropes despite GRRM promising to deconstruct said tropes.

So I thought also.  In the past couple of days I have seen a shocking number of people say they don't like him for some reason.

[Sevumar]

There are a fair number of posters who don't like Jon. I don't know about "hate" since that seems like a strong word for a character in a work of fiction. There seem to be two groups of people whose opinions of Jon I'll confess I don't get:

1) "He's so whiny." I do see a pretty large number of complaints about people who think that Jon feels sorry for himself too much. While this does happen a little in the first book, I think people forget that Jon is a teenager and this is pretty typical for people in that age group. Throughout the first book, he does have to face a number of difficult and unfair situations. He actually does a very good job of growing up and learning to deal with what's thrown at him, with a few mistakes along the way.

2) "He's boring." Jon's story is a coming-of-age tale. There are certain things that we can count on happening to him, but that thread runs through the stories of most of Martin's characters, especially the younger ones. I don't find the story any less entertaining because of this. Martin's not obligated to "deconstruct every trope" that's ever been used in successful storytelling. Tropes exist for a reason; they work and as long as they're applied in interesting ways, they're perfectly fine.

Jon is probably one of the most decent people in the series. He is a basically good guy in a crappy situation, who nonetheless manages to accomplish a lot of things.

[Dolorous Nedd]

NitzanLeo, on 27 January 2013 - 12:36 PM, said:

Though I do love Jon, I find that the OP's reasons for not finding Jon boring are horrible. A character can do the awesomest of things possible, but can still be boring as a character. If a character doesn't have progression, for instance, he can be found quite boring. I don't think that of Jon, obviously, but I just wanted to say that. I also didn't see any Jon hate threads or posts. Only silly people will hate Jon.

Fair enough.  I suppose what endears me to a character may be different than other people.  There was just something about the whole Samwell thing that made me a Jon fan no matter what.  In actuality his character has moved along very briskly.  He went from being a boy enjoying the comforts of Winterfell, to the Wall, to beyond the Wall, to marching with the Wildlings, to betraying the Wildlings, to LC, to helping the Wildlings, among other accomplishments.

[TinHouse]

I don't hate Jon in the books, he is just as boring to me as Bran in the books.

The jon-fandom is what I hate. But I accept them, every fandom has that little corner of fandom that is a tad bit more annoying than the rest.

[Scipio Africanus]

PatrickStormborn, on 27 January 2013 - 12:28 PM, said:

That's just a matter of him being the character who fits the most cliched fantasy tropes despite GRRM promising to deconstruct said tropes.

I read this a lot but really I don't think Martin meant that his fantasy novel would be devoid of fantasy "tropes". I mean it has dragons, yeah well we've seen that before. It has malevolent alien beings creating zombies and wanting to dominate life. Yeah we've seen that before as well and not only in fantasy but also in other genres like sci-fi and horror.

My point is, fantasy tropes are inevitable in a fantasy novel. Then I read stuff like "it should be about the Game not the Wall". Yeah well hate to break it to people but it is about the Wall and what's happening there. In the end magic (and thus, fantasy tropes) will become more and more prevelant coming two novels. The Game is but a sideshow, and Dany's Idiot Abroad adventures a spinoff altogether.

In the end it's all about humanity destroying Evil and there's a good chance Jonny's going to play a big part in that. And a lot of people who want more of the Game and less "Wall stuff" may not like that, which can lead to not liking Jon. I don't know what those people are expecting though because well, they've signed up for a fantasy novel not an alternate history fiction.

Edited by Scipio Africanus, 27 January 2013 - 12:49 PM.

[David Selig]

People have different opinions and are interested in different things. News at 11.

BTW, there's really no need for comments that the only reason someone can find a certain character boring is because he hasn't paid attention to his chapters.

[PatrickStormborn]

Sevumar, on 27 January 2013 - 12:44 PM, said:

2) "He's boring." Jon's story is a coming-of-age tale. There are certain things that we can count on happening to him, but that thread runs through the stories of most of Martin's characters, especially the younger ones. I don't find the story any less entertaining because of this. Martin's not obligated to "deconstruct every trope" that's ever been used in successful storytelling. Tropes exist for a reason; they work and as long as they're applied in interesting ways, they're perfectly fine.

Has anyone EVER said GRRM is "obligated" to deconstruct "every" trope? No. In that case, your argument is just a complete strawman.

The problem - for me at least - is that GRRM has outright stated in just about every interview that he hates traditional, predictable, trope-filled stories. He's also said that he considers characters to be a "piece of cardboard" if everyone likes them. Jon is the character who was built with the most traditional fantasy tropes. Many readers therefore feel that we've already read about him countless times and, as such, aren't intrigued by his story. It's also disappointing that an author who consistently promises to twist fantasy tropes has not yet done so with one of his main characters. Daenerys, Tyrion, Arya, Bran and Sansa are much more intriguing and complex for that reason alone.

There's also a huge problem I have with him being so likeable when compared to other (usually female) characters like Daenerys, Sansa and Catelyn. All three are widely hated while Jon is praised by almost everyone. It's annoying.

[Theda Baratheon]

Scipio Africanus, on 27 January 2013 - 12:48 PM, said:

I read this a lot but really I don't think Martin meant that his fantasy novel would be devoid of fantasy "tropes". I mean it has dragons, yeah well we've seen that before. It has malevolent alien beings creating zombies and wanting to dominate life. Yeah we've seen that before as well and not only in fantasy but also in other genres like sci-fi and horror.

My point is, fantasy tropes are inevitable in a fantasy novel. Then I read stuff like "it should be about the Game not the Wall". Yeah well hate to break it to people but it is about the Wall and what's happening there. In the end magic (and thus, fantasy tropes) will become more and more prevelant coming two novels. The Game is but a sideshow, and Dany's Idiot Abroad adventures a spinoff altogether.

In the end it's all about humanity destroying Evil and there's a good chance Jonny's going to play a big part in that. And a lot of people who want more of the Game and less "Wall stuff" may not like that, which can lead to not liking Jon. I don't know what those people are expecting though because well, they've signed up for a fantasy novel not an alternate history fiction.

I definitely agree that with the emergence of fantastical elements in this fantasy novels that familiar 'tropes that we have seen before are going to pop up and I really don't see why this would be a reason for someone to dislike a character but I see it as a reasoning for quite a few characters/events and it really baffles me because as you've states, this is a fantasy series.

[The Broke Howard Hughes]

Theres a thread about the biggest red herring in the series.  What if Jon is dead and stays dead?  Would that erase this whole predictable, seen-it before discussion we're having?  Because it's quiet possible Jon Snow isn't the hero we all expected him to be.  if thats true then GRRM has stayed true to his word.  That argument doesn't hold up, YET, because the story isn't finished.

[Sevumar]

PatrickStormborn, on 27 January 2013 - 12:51 PM, said:

Has anyone EVER said GRRM is "obligated" to deconstruct "every" trope? No. In that case, your argument is just a complete strawman.

No, but the "trope" and "cliched" things seem to be applied uncommonly often to Jon's story arc. With the wealth of characters Martin has given us, it's almost inevitable that we'd get one who works through a storyline that hews closely to mythical and fantasy tradition.

Quote

The problem - for me at least - is that GRRM has outright stated in just about every interview that he hates traditional, predictable, trope-filled stories. He's also said that he considers characters to be a "piece of cardboard" if everyone likes them.

Yes, and if the novels were just about Jon Snow's coming of age and rise to power, then I could see this bothering people a lot more. But Jon is just one thread of a larger story with other characters who are less traditional much earlier in their storylines. There are plenty of people who don't like Jon and in fact, they form most of the opposition he experiences in his narrative arc.

Quote

There's also a huge problem I have with him being so likeable when compared to other (usually female) characters like Daenerys, Sansa and Catelyn. All three are widely hated while Jon is praised by almost everyone. It's annoying.

This makes no sense to me. Jon is not allowed to be likeable because you view three female characters as less likeable? Jon is less grey than two of the characters you listed and I think that we're in for some big changes to his character one the end of Dance cliffhanger is resolved.