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A solid Jaime Lannister Azor Ahai Theory


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#1 Jorg Ancrath

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 05:12 PM

Hello all,
This is my first time posting on this forum, but I'd like to discuss a theory I have seen before, but I have my own interpretations and thoughts about the future books.

Though I do believe Jon Snow is the son of R and J, I do not believe he is Azor Ahai- I think Jamie is the more likely choice and I'll tell you why.

A quote on the AA legend: "Darkness lay over the world and a hero, Azor Ahai, was chosen to fight against it. To fight the darkness, Azor Ahai needed to forge a hero's sword. He labored for thirty days and thirty nights until it was done. However, when he went to temper it in water, the sword broke. He was not one to give up easily, so he started over. The second time he took fifty days and fifty nights to make the sword, even better than the first. To temper it this time, he captured a lion and drove the sword into its heart, but once more the steel shattered. The third time, with a heavy heart, for he knew beforehand what he must do to finish the blade, he worked for a hundred days and nights until it was finished. This time, he called for his wife, Nissa Nissa, and asked her to bare her breast. He drove his sword into her breast, her soul combining with the steel of the sword, creating Lightbringer."

Let's talk Lightbringer- while I'm not sure on what the sword will actually be (Dawn or possibly one that Gendry forges) I do see two things that make Jaimie a likely AA candidate- the lion and Nissa Nissa. Either Tyrion (lion) and Cersie (Nissa Nissa) or Cersie as a two-for-one package deal. Jaime killing one or both of these characters could support and follow the legend of how Lightbringer was forged. At this time, Jon in theory would have three lions to choose from (Jaime, Cersie, Tyrion) but he doesn't exactly have a lover to kill and make himself a magic sword. The one detail that throws this evidence is Maggy's prophecy that Cersie will be strangled by the 'valonqar'- but still, that doesn't mean Jamie couldn't strangle her and then stab her.

An alternate possibility: Jaime reborn, kills Tyrion as his lion, kills Brienne as his Nissa. What happens to Cersie? I'd say a great way for her to go would be to be strangled by Arya (Arya becomes the 'valonquar' in her faceless man training- just a guess but valonquar looks a bit like an offshoot of valar morghulis).

As you might have guessed, my theory relies heavily on the A + J= J + C theory. We know that Aeryes wanted Joanna, but lets look at Jamie and Cersie as people. Jamie has had his head on mostly straight, but I feel Cersie definitely showed some signs of insanity in Feast (see: Blue Bard interrogation) which totally would fit the daughter of the mad king. That would make for a big reveal, and a interesting revelation that Tywin's only true son was Tyrion when his family always treated him like he didn't belong. Plus, not all Targs are insane.

Smoke and Salt. Okay, I've seen a lot of people try to explain this one and it seems like they were grasping for something that isn't there yet. This is a bit of a leap of faith, but I think somehow we will see a character (not neccessarily Jaime, but whoever AA is) travel to Valyria and be reborn in some way. Though that sounds crazy- hear me out. If Jamie is killed by the reanimated Catelyn, Thoros or prehaps some other Lord of Light followers are around- they can have a hand in getting him away from the brotherhood (apparently Thoros doesn't approve of Cat's control). Jaimie's body has then two possibilities of traveling to Valyria- one by boat, and two (fingers crossed) by dragon. It'd be wild, but the ruins of Valyria have always been a big mystery in the books and its not impossible to go there and back (if you believe the Crow's Eye).

Why I don't think Jon or Dany are likely to be AA
Jon, as much as a great candidate he is, I believe he will have a bigger part to play in the North and with the old gods. GRRM has hinted Winds will take us farther north than any previous book- isn't it more likely Jon will meet with Coldhands (most likely Ben Stark) and help Bran/go beyond the wall one last time for the Night's watch?

For Dany, I believe she will play a big role, but her character seems too tragic for me. My impression of her final Dance chapter was that she too has a touch of the Targ madness. Also, there has been thoughts of a conflict between her and Aegon (read some forums on the new chapter discussed). Yes she was born on Dragonstone, a place of smoke and salt, but AA is supposed to be reborn there.

So for Jaime as AA we have:
A descendent of Aeryes and thus a Targ
Possible lion/lover to kill to forge lightbringer
Soon to be dead, therefore soon to be reborn
Supporting evidence against the other likely candidates

It's a long way before we'll know anything, but feel free to discuss my theories- apologies if you've read all my points somewhere else. Anyways, got any thoughts?

#2 the bastard of starfall

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 05:19 PM

mayhaps



#3 Jon Wolfwalker

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 05:20 PM

Welcome.

#4 shk12344

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 05:25 PM

No

#5 TheGreyKraken

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 05:32 PM

Welcome to the Forum!
Its rather interesting hearing an actual AA theory about someone besides Stannis,Danny or Jon.
But this theory about Jamie being Aerys son? Too far fetched in my opinion as there is no real evidence actually supporting it.
When he says that we will go farther north than in all of the previous books, I'm sure this could be directly involved with Bran's chapters but there is no real evidence supporting my claim. Jon is currently at The Wall with his fate unknown, he may go north for a period of time but I am sure he won't stay there long as he would eventually have to return to The Wall.
Jon and Stannis are more likely to be AA since they have actually been involved with The Others and the fight against them, Jamie doesn't even know The Others exist and he is in The Riverlands which is quite a good distance from The Wall.
Jamie has his sword hand gone, not a good attribute for AA.

#6 DreamSongs

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 05:34 PM

Welcome Jorg.

A big Jaime fan myself, I have to point out a couple of holes. Jaime does not need to go to Valarya to be reborn. Thoros is with the BWB and is the one that reanimated Beric. There is no reason he cannot do the same for Jaime. And I don't see how Jaime and Cersei being Targ bastards would even need to come into play. Seems like you are leaving something in your theory out.

#7 Ducks in a Field

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 05:42 PM

Could his rebirth get him a new hand too?

#8 TheGreyKraken

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 05:47 PM

Could his rebirth get him a new hand too?

No, if i recall correctly Beric still shared the wounds he got each time he died after being resurrected. Gregor stabbed him through the eye once and this prevents him from using an eye.

#9 Ducks in a Field

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 05:53 PM

No, if i recall correctly Beric still shared the wounds he got each time he died after being resurrected. Gregor stabbed him through the eye once and this prevents him from using an eye.


Whilst I was mainly being facetious, I was also thinking of Moqorro giving Victarion a new hand with magic. I do not think it will happen, but Jaime and Brienne still have a metaphysical appointment to keep under the rock.

#10 cottog8444

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 05:59 PM

Whilst I was mainly being facetious, I was also thinking of Moqorro giving Victarion a new hand with magic. I do not think it will happen, but Jaime and Brienne still have a metaphysical appointment to keep under the rock.


Victarion didn't get a new hand, either. His arm is burned all to hell and still smokes when he closes his fist. He also says its stronger. This is off-topic, but that arm is awesome.

Also, welcome Jorg

#11 The Broke Howard Hughes

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 06:07 PM

Welcome! That being said I've respectfully read your post, considered it on it's merits and come to the conclusion that if Jamie Lannister is AA then I am the Prince that was Promised! /drunk.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':drunk:' />

#12 chrisdaw

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 06:10 PM

There won't be one AA/Lightbringer/Last Hero, just various characters taking on the role of heros against the Others and attributes paralleling the legends. I have no doubt that between Brienne and Jaime there will be a flaming sword, but I doubt it has anything to do with Cersei. Beric's blood could flame a sword, a regular sword couldn't handle the heat. Oathkeeper should handle the heat fine and Stoneheart's blood should have the same fiery characteristic's that Beric's had.

#13 Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 06:15 PM

I don't think there is any hint that Lightbringer will need to be reforged. The forging all relates to the original Azor Ahai, not the reincarnation that everyone is so concerned with on this forum.

P.S Welcome to the forum /smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />

Edited by Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik, 29 January 2013 - 06:17 PM.


#14 The Titan's Legitimate Son

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 06:18 PM

Welcome! That being said I've respectfully read your post, considered it on it's merits and come to the conclusion that if Jamie Lannister is AA then I am the Prince that was Promised! /drunk.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':drunk:' />


You're not the Prince that was Promised, you're a very naughty boy!

Anyway Davos is tPtwP. Tis Known.

#15 Castellan

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 07:14 PM

Hiya

a nasty thought - Jamie could be the unfortunate lion who gets it in the heart, seeing as he is presumably captured by UnCat at the moment, and the remnent/s of Ice may become the new sword.

However, the legend doesn't require that the whole forging will be re-enacted, I think, although its possible.

#16 The Mother of The Others

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 08:00 PM

I don't love flaming swords. Is that wrong?
If I had a flaming burning sword I'd take Tums Metallic.

Scene:

At the Rock, Tyrion has snuck in to strangle Cercei, while Jaime has arrived to defend Cersei.
Then Cercei says something that rubs Jaime the wrong way.
Now Jaime is helping to corral Cersei so Tyrion can strangle her.
As Tyrion is finishing up with the strangling, Jaime gets on with the stabbing.
The sword emerges from her heart all firy,
which freaks everyone out because they weren't expecting that.
Accidental Azor.
But now we're looking at a bunch of chapters of TRAVEL TIME before the sword can get to where it needs to be so it can be useful vs. the Others.
Solution: bring the Others south, basically to the Rock, so Jaime can start flaming them hard right away, no waiting. So the North is wiped out and zombified in this scenario. So what. Honestly, would you miss it? If so, we can posit that there are a few northerners left and the new Flaming Sword will save them. Because that's what we need, a flaming sword saving everyone.

.....Is there any chance the flaming sword referred to the burning sensation AA experienced when he urinated? Think about it: he stuck his "sword" in someone he cared about and then he was like, "Damn, me sword is on fire!" The answer is clear: only rampant sex can stop the advance of the Others. Spreading a Firy STD is the only way to get through the cold nights up north and shatter the freezing aura that emanates from the frigid genitals of the white walkers. Well? Considering the Craster weirdness, there's some kind of multi-species perversion going on north of the wall. So I think the AA: STD theory can't be entirely dismissed. Not until the Others submit to a full physical and are interviewed by Oprah about what they've been doing with the Craster babies.

Edited by The Mother of The Others, 29 January 2013 - 08:17 PM.


#17 houseHB

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 08:45 PM

Crackpot - Jaime is my second choice for Azor Ahai if it is not Jon. I think it is possible that the Jaime POV in DWD that took place real shortly after his last chapter in AFFC is significant. I think that Jaime is the hooded man in Winterfell and that we will see flashbacks through his eyes in Winds about a trial by combat with Lady Stoneheart not Brienne where Jaime will defeat Lady Stoneheart by killing her with Ned Starks sword making Lady Stoneheart/Stark nissa nissa. In Arianne's new sample chapter we find that Tarth has fallen, I think that Brienne will travel back to Tarth to see what happened, which is why Brienne is not with Jaime in WInterfell. Jaime as Azor Ahai who is stationed in the heart of the North where the battle against the others is about to go down with oathkeeper will defend the realm against the others.

#18 Jorg Ancrath

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 09:34 PM

Welcome Jorg.

A big Jaime fan myself, I have to point out a couple of holes. Jaime does not need to go to Valarya to be reborn. Thoros is with the BWB and is the one that reanimated Beric. There is no reason he cannot do the same for Jaime. And I don't see how Jaime and Cersei being Targ bastards would even need to come into play. Seems like you are leaving something in your theory out.


Ah, and it seems you've led me to my first big problem haha. The reason I mentioned Aerys was a bit from the woods witch, but it looks like I've screwed it up: "A woods witch prophesied that the Prince That Was Promised would be born from the line of Prince Aerys and Princess Rhaella. When Aegon V heard the prophecy he arranged the marriage between the two". With that, it would have to be from the line of both of them; therefore, Dany, Aegon (Young Griff that is), and Jon (if the theories on him being son of R and J hold up) would be the only living people in the story at this time fit for it.

Who really knows though- I just can't see Jamie dying immediately and being gone from the big picture in Winds- he's been an important character for so long and I just really wanted to believe that there is more to him. Where Ned's death set off a chain of events that fueled the series, killing Jamie now would seem kind of wasteful in my opinion. I'm not ruling out the possibility, just a bit more skeptical than I was twenty minutes ago.

As for Valyria, I'd say that wouldn't happen until the last book- the doom of Valyria is a mystery and think it'd be awesome to see a voyage there. And what is better for the 'smoke and salt' bit of the prophecy than the smoking sea?

#19 Jorg Ancrath

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 09:36 PM

And this post has led me to even more thoughts about the rest of the series, if I could erase these books from my mind and just read them when ASOIAF was finished I honestly think I would do it haha

#20 Kasrith

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 12:53 AM

The only thing I can disagree with here (besides the iffy A+J=J+C theory) is the venture to Valyria. It's more possible in this light that the Crow's Eye himself was somewhat reborn there (very doubtful, not insinuating that this is the case) or that Dany would go through Valyria and have some Eureka reborn moment or something to that effect.

Jaime making some crazy random trip to Valyria when so many other characters are already in Slaver's Bay, and thus realistically close, seems way too out there (especially considering there are only a limited, small amount of books to be published yet - if you can believe anything you read on the internet...). Although knowing GRRM, anything is possible I guess.