Finding bits of LOTR influences in ASOIAF

[Ygrain]

Not sure if this has been brought up before, but it definitely caught my attention:

You have been caught in a net of warring duties that you did not weave. But think, servants of your Lord, blind in your obedience, that but for the treason of Beregond, Faramir, Captain of the White Tower, would now also be burned."

[Littlestfinger]

If Galadriel was so wonderful, why did she fall under the Ban?

When we meet Galadriel she's had > 6,000 years to repent of her pride. Unfortunately you can't really understand that if you only read LotR, it's hinted at but the hints aren't explained. So I can see how people could get the impression she was all good because that's more or less the way JRRT wrote her at that time in her life.

The interesting question is what would have happened had the Ring existed , say, after the Nirnaeth Arnoediad and Galadriel had been tempted with it then. I think there's a very good chance she'd have failed the temptation and ended up in Sauron's place. OTOH it's not clear how much anyone other than the Istari could possibly master the Ring, and it may be the wisdom she gained after all those millennia that enabled her to pass the test is the very quality she would have lacked that would have prevented her from mastering the Ring.

I think the similarities are mostly superficial. Samwell Tarly is plainly an homage to Samwise Gamgee, but aside from the fact that both become sidekicks to the (or a) main hero their characters couldn't be more different. SG is brave to a fault but only moderately bright and very limited in his horizons. I doubt he'd read a book in his life before coming back from Mt. Doom. And he's a beloved servant, not a noble or even a member of the country gentry like Bilbo and Frodo. ST is highborn and intellectual and has a good deal of moral courage (okay, he does share that with SG) but is a physical coward. SG is where he is because he's a loving servant, son of a loving servant. ST is where he is because of his father's contempt for him.

Most of the other parallels that have been pointed out are similar - superficial or background things that turn out very different on closer inspection. Gandalf isn't a Man, he's an incarnate Maia. Yes, his powers have been reduced and much of his memory is hidden from him, but he's lived more than 2,000 years in Middle-earth and could presumably live 10,000 years more if that's how long the war dragged on, and he has superlative wisdom even compared to the longest-lived Eldar. Mel has supernatural powers from her god, but apart from that she's no greater than any other human - she was born, ages, and dies like anyone else, she could presumably have children if she chose to (the Istari were not capable of this, it was a property of the bodies in which they were incarnated), and she's not all that terribly wise given her limited success at interpreting the visions. Gandalf is an incarnation, an avatar, like the Hindu Rama, Mel is just a woman with superpowers.

As far as grey characters go, GRRM's fictional world is such an infinitely nastier place than Middle-earth that it's hard to compare. Martin's "grey" characters do things that NO one in Tolkien would even contemplate except the worst of the worst inhuman enemies. Even Curufin, who is possibly the worst Elf ever, never had his soldiers gang-rape his daughter-in-law just to make a point. That sort of horror just never happens in Tolkien unless it's perpetrated by villains who are purely and irredeemably evil by nature - orcs and their masters (and even then it sn't discussed openly by nice people). The second-worst Elf ever, Eol, stole Aradhel to be his wife, he didn't pull a Roose Bolton on her. That sort of depravity just doesn't exist in Tolkien's characters. "Dark" for a Tolkien good guy is accidentally killing your friend in the dark. Or stealing ships you desperately need from your distant relatives and killing a few in the process. Or committing incest with your sister because you're both under glamors and have no idea who the other one is. Dark is lusting after your single cousin, not shtupping your married sister in the marital bed. Things like that wouldn't even occur to a Tolkien good guy, even the greyer ones. And most of the darkest deeds committed by Tolkien's characters would hardly get a shrug in Westeros.

Really, the downfall of all of Tolkien's greyer characters (the ones that fall and don't redeem themselves), is PRIDE, and pride in the Christian sense, placing their own interests ahead of God's will (of course Middle-Earth is before Abraham so the concept of "God's will" is a little different, but only a little). In Westeros that's almost a virtue.

Feanor is by far the most interesting of Tokien's greyer characters for me, and there's no one I can think of in ASoIaF who is remotely like Feanor. And no one who falls the way Feanor falls - by becoming excessively attached and possessional about his artistic creations which are the wonders of the world. In ASoIaF things like dragons, the Wall, LightBringer, Euron's horn, are just props for the characters to use and fight over, McGuffins to move the plot along. the people who created them are long gone and no one really knows or cares about them, let alone has much of a connection to them. (The dragons are a bit of an exception but the connection from Dany to the original dragon masters of Valyria is extremely remote, conceptually if not in time.) By contrast, Aragorn is still living in the world of Beren One-hand, he wears a ring given to his forefather by an Elvish lord (Galadriel's older brother) 5,000 years before as a token of eternal friendship between their families, and he still wears it 5,000 years down the line not because it has magic powers or even as an ordinary heirloom but because it is STILL a powerful token of the alliance between those peoples, and he expects that that alliance will be honored. And as Sam (I think) points out, the light in Galdriel's phial is a little bit of the Silmaril forged by Feanor over 6,000 years before that started all the conflicts, and Galadriel was there on the scene, I mean, not in the room) when it was forged and when that led to the exile of the Noldor. There are individuals in that world still paying in their own personal lives for things they did in the most remote age of heroes. To the folks in ASoIaF those remote days are just legends that may or may not have some slight guidance to offer them.

There's really nothing like that in Martin. Things go back to great antiquity, but people don't, and memory doesn't. The history is on an epic scale but the story and characters are on a very human scale. Characters are upset about things that happened 15 years ago, or maybe two or three generation ago, but that's it. That's why it's so hard to get most people to take the threat of the Others seriously - yeah, they have legends and a few records of how that used to be, but nobody has cared in far longer than living memory. It's ancient history. Whereas in LotR the characters are living IN ancient history, and ancient history is an intimate and powerful part of their lives.

As to specifics, a few quibbles with Cryptic Weirwood's list:

Thorin: A little grey, mostly a right guy, proud and greedy but honest and honorable. He had a lot more to complain about with his treatment by the Elves than they did about his dealings with them afterwards.

Beorn: There's no badness in him, just wildness.

Boromir: Proved good in the end. When Aragorn said he'd won a victory like few had ever won, he wasn't talking about killing a few dozen orcs. And foolish though it would be to try, it's indisputable that he only wanted the Ring to use in a good cause.

Theoden: Can't see much grey there. Brought low by Wormtongue's guile, but regained his strength and honor and fought nobly, dying a heroic death.

Sméagol: More like a thoroughly evil character with a little humanity left underneath and with a slim chance at redemption which he utterly blew.

Frodo: Frodo, grey? I don't see how. Willingly made a terrible sacrifice on a quest no one made him take on. Failed the Ring's test at the end, but it's strongly implied that no living being would not have done the same.

Fëanor: Definitely, see above.

Fingolfin. How Fingolfin? He was mostly screwed over by Feanor and kept supporting him anyway.

Maedros and the rest: Yes, agree.

But there's no one on that list who casually killed children to hide their naughty behavior, or just as casually raped and tortured whole villages and shrugged and said "Hey, it's war", or had their enemies slowly flayed alive, or murdered all their guests at a wedding.

[Ygrain]

When we meet Galadriel she's had > 6,000 years to repent of her pride. Unfortunately you can't really understand that if you only read LotR, it's hinted at but the hints aren't explained. So I can see how people could get the impression she was all good because that's more or less the way JRRT wrote her at that time in her life.

The hints are in LOTR just fine, people only tend to overlook the meaning behind her pondering long what she would do if she got the Ring. That speaks about a lot of temptation.

The interesting question is what would have happened had the Ring existed , say, after the Nirnaeth Arnoediad and Galadriel had been tempted with it then. I think there's a very good chance she'd have failed the temptation and ended up in Sauron's place. OTOH it's not clear how much anyone other than the Istari could possibly master the Ring, and it may be the wisdom she gained after all those millennia that enabled her to pass the test is the very quality she would have lacked that would have prevented her from mastering the Ring.

Not even the Istari, Gandalf is quite clear on that.

As far as grey characters go, GRRM's fictional world is such an infinitely nastier place than Middle-earth that it's hard to compare. Martin's "grey" characters do things that NO one in Tolkien would even contemplate except the worst of the worst inhuman enemies. Even Curufin, who is possibly the worst Elf ever, never had his soldiers gang-rape his daughter-in-law just to make a point. That sort of horror just never happens in Tolkien unless it's perpetrated by villains who are purely and irredeemably evil by nature - orcs and their masters (and even then it sn't discussed openly by nice people). The second-worst Elf ever, Eol, stole Aradhel to be his wife, he didn't pull a Roose Bolton on her. That sort of depravity just doesn't exist in Tolkien's characters. "Dark" for a Tolkien good guy is accidentally killing your friend in the dark. Or stealing ships you desperately need from your distant relatives and killing a few in the process. Or committing incest with your sister because you're both under glamors and have no idea who the other one is. Dark is lusting after your single cousin, not shtupping your married sister in the marital bed. Things like that wouldn't even occur to a Tolkien good guy, even the greyer ones. And most of the darkest deeds committed by Tolkien's characters would hardly get a shrug in Westeros.

Ahem... while GRRMth is definitely a more depraved placed, it's not like the darkness is nonexistent in Middle-earth because it is not described in such a detail. Besides, you've quoted some examples but left out the rest - Eol nearly murdered his own son for no better reason than losing his power over him, Maeglin not only lusted for Idril but caused the fall of Gondolin and countless deaths and suffering because of it, and was about to murder boy Earendil and force himself on Idril prior Tuor killed him. As for Túrin, the band of outlaws he joined were thieves, murderers and rapists. And so on. Númenor in its late years was definitely a dark place, Gondor during Kinstrife not much better.

And most of the darkest deeds committed by Tolkien's characters would hardly get a shrug in Westeros.

Except the Kinslaying.

[Fire Eater]

TWOIAF

The northern Kingdom of Sarnor likely drawing inspiration from the northern Kingdom of Arnor.

Any other possible LOTR references in TWOIAF would be appreciated.

[The Wolves]

TWOIAF Spoiler

There was a Arryn who took a wife named Arwen Upcliff

[The Reckoner]

I always thought Valyria = Melnibone

[Fire Eater]

I always thought Valyria = Melnibone

It does have some influence from Melnibone. The cataclysmic event is more Atlantis/Numenor.

[Leonardo]

Don't know if anyone has pointed it out, but esgaroth is in the same general place in both series and obv share the same name as well. I think its on the wrong side of the river but otherwise it is definitely a wink at LOTR

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

You can find bits of Greco-Roman mythology and Celtic mythology in it also too .The tales are universal only the names change .

[The Reckoner]

Really, Planetos is a smorgasbord of good stuff, Tolkien, Howard, Moorcock, Lovecraft and probably a few others I'm missing.

[Fire Eater]

I think Bran is definitely Frodo. Goes on a quest with three companions (minus Summer), and later a ranger (Ranger of the North/NW) to beyond the Black Gate into hostile enemy territory to a supernatural figure with a sinister reputation and all-seeing eye, BR. I think like Frodo, Bran will be the only one who doesn't settle down and rehabilitate. I think while Jon is leading the forces against the Others, Bran will

I think HR is Bilbo Baggins. He is an aristocrat from a land of people of short stature isolated from the outside world who goes on an adventure. He goes to battle dragons, and retrieve a lost treasure, Lyanna, in the mountains.

[Rickon the Builder]

One of the castles of the Wall is called bloody OAKENSHIELD.

[Mithras]

I think Bran is definitely Frodo. Goes on a quest with three companions (minus Summer), and later a ranger (Ranger of the North/NW) to beyond the Black Gate into hostile enemy territory to a supernatural figure with a sinister reputation and all-seeing eye, BR. I think like Frodo, Bran will be the only one who doesn't settle down and rehabilitate. I think while Jon is leading the forces against the Others, Bran will

I think HR is Bilbo Baggins. He is an aristocrat from a land of people of short stature isolated from the outside world who goes on an adventure. He goes to battle dragons, and retrieve a lost treasure, Lyanna, in the mountains.

The treasure HR brought to his home might be Ashara Dayne :)

[Mithras]

TWOIAF

The northern Kingdom of Sarnor likely drawing inspiration from the northern Kingdom of Arnor.

Any other possible LOTR references in TWOIAF would be appreciated.

Although the name suggests this, I think the culture and the history of Sarnor is based on the Hittites.

[FearFacesNorth]

Sean Bean died early in both of them.

10/10 would laugh again

[Rippounet]

I think Bran is definitely Frodo.

With a bit of professor Xavier... I wonder when the wheelchair will pop in. ;)

Seriously though, even if someone wrote fantasy without drawing some kind of inspiration from LotR (like, without having read it), there would still be some to claim he did.

As it is, Martin fully aknowledged him loving Tolkien as a kid so...

There are parallels and winks, yes, but all in all any work as complex as ASOAIF will have multiple sources of inspiration. Also, some tropes or themes are common to many fantasy novels.

For example ASOAIF, Hobb's Assassin series and the Wheel of Time all have a character magically bonded to a wolf (or wolves). Yet, all three have a different perspective on it. And the dates of publishing seem to show that all three authors (Martin, Hobb & Jordan) came up with it on their own. Or maybe they all drew inspiration from CS Lewis. Or maybe it's a Norse mythology thing. Or a Roman mythology thing.

Martin writes fantasy, so he consciously or unconsciously used patterns from LotR for ASOAIF. I like the fact that this thread finds a lot of new elements to this though.

[Reginald blackfield]

I think the Wall is definitely inspired in some way or another by Morwannon, the Black gate (alongside Hadrians wall). The Orcs are Wildlings, the Nazgul (Black riders) are Others (White walkers) especially with the hinting that at least some are corrupted men.

I have beem reading Dany's chapters in ADWD and noticed Paralells between Astapor and Esgaroth, although this May be a coincidence. The refugees travel north to Meereen/The lonely mountain. But are denied asylum within the city. The foreshadowing (do not spoil it) about an assault by the Slavers against Meereen reminds me of the battle of five armies. Although again this may be a coincidence.

[Ygrain]

I think the Wall is definitely inspired in some way or another by Morwannon, the Black gate (alongside Hadrians wall). The Orcs are Wildlings, the Nazgul (Black riders) are Others (White walkers) especially with the hinting that at least some are corrupted men.

I have beem reading Dany's chapters in ADWD and noticed Paralells between Astapor and Esgaroth, although this May be a coincidence. The refugees travel north to Meereen/The lonely mountain. But are denied asylum within the city. The foreshadowing (do not spoil it) about an assault by the Slavers against Meereen reminds me of the battle of five armies. Although again this may be a coincidence.

In the book, they are never denied asylum in Esgaroth.

[Reginald blackfield]

In the book, they are never denied asylum in Esgaroth.

i just re-read the part of the Hobbit where Bard Parleys with Thorin, Thorin stubbornly refuses Bards proposals, "I will not parley, as I have said, with armed men at my gate", it partially does remind me of how the Astapori are denied access to Meereen, although Daenerys does want to help the Astapori in ADWD. BTW I think you meant Erebor, not Esgaroth.

[BalerionTheCat]

I did not read the whole thread. But yes both Sam are obvious.

I would match Jon more with Frodo (an unremarkable person in the beginning) than with Aragorn (Strider yes, but not Aragorn). And Aerys with Denethor. And I always compared Pyp and Grenn with Pippin and Merry, inseparable friends of the main hero, and always bickering.