paytheironicprice Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 I would say Sam Tarly character is a bit of an homage to Samwell Ganche. I think you mean Samwise Gamgee... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pompeius Magnus Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 Ninety percent of these connections are purely superficial at best, and forced at worst. Yes, there are similarities: they're both high fantasy novels. There isn't much of an argument that they mean much of anything, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannis Eats No Peaches Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 Ninety percent of these connections are purely superficial at best, and forced at worst. Yes, there are similarities: they're both high fantasy novels. There isn't much of an argument that they mean much of anything, though.I think that the OP in particular is not forced at all. There's a definite pattern there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pompeius Magnus Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 I think that the OP in particular is not forced at all. There's a definite pattern there.There's a definite Númenorean feel to Valyria, though of course Númenor is just the Atlantis myth transposed into Middle Earth. The Targaryens bear some resemblance to the Lords of Andúnië as well... but Jon as Aragorn I don't buy. Very, very different characters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire Eater Posted January 31, 2013 Author Share Posted January 31, 2013 Well there is that wildling dude called:Soren ShieldbreakerThorin Oakenshield....Yeah GRRM, i totes saw what you did there.Nice one!Thorin Oakenshield's story was about a dwarf trying to reclaim his fortress that was built into a mountain, Erebor, and his gold from a red dragon, Smaug, who stole it. GRRM inverts that story with a dwarf, Tyrion, using a red dragon, Dany, to reclaim his mountain fortress, Casterly Rock, and the gold within it.There is the village of Whitetree, which is a reference to the White Tree of Gondor.The sacred white tree, Nimloth, was cut down by the King of Númenor at the instigation of Sauron and used to light the first flames in the fire of the new religion that worshiped Melkor, the Dark Lord. People were burned in the fires as sacrifices to Melkor, including members of the Faithful, who stayed loyal to the old faith and believed death was not an evil. The people who took up the worship of Melkor became known as "King's Men".GRRM inverts it; at Mel's instigation, Stannis gave the weirwoods to the fire of the new god, R'hllor, the Lord of Light. The "King's Men" are those who are faithful to the old Faith of the Seven while those who worship R'hllor with Stannis as the "Queen's Men". People, including men who stayed loyal to the Seven, are burned as sacrifices. The Red Faith, as Mel reveals, sees death as evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Bobby B Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 Well there is that wildling dude called:Soren ShieldbreakerThorin Oakenshield....Yeah GRRM, i totes saw what you did there.One of the castles on the Wall is called Oakenshield Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ben Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 And in one there is the walls of Gondor and in the other a Wall also. What a ripoff of LOTR....I think this thread has more stretching than a yoga class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
They see me R'hollin Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 The differences between the two books are more prominent that the similarities. Tolkien's LOTR didn't have morally ambiguous characters; there was either good or evil. Whereas one of the most poignant themes of GRRM's is that every single character is just a different shade of grey. LOTR is pure fantasy whereas ASOIAF is human people just in a fantasy setting. Also ASOIAF is all about a power struggle between figures of near-equal calibre, it's a game for which men play. Whereas LOTR was a full-on smackdown of good vs bad.Anyway I digress. Similarities I believe would be the whole "weakness of men" business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GarthKITN Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 One I've noticed very recently (after seeing this thread actually, as I'd never made the connection before) is between the LOTR elves and the Others/White Walkers. Rereading aSoS, Sam describes the others as sword-thin and graceful, and how everything seems to move in sync with them. He then goes on to say that when the Others walk, they don't break the snow, which would indicate they're incredibly light. I really recall that with Legolas in Fellowship Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Edmure Tully Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 LOTR didn't have morally ambiguous characters? Uhhh boromir? Denethor? Gollum? Even wormtongue wasn't wholly evil. What does gandalf say? Nothing is wholly evilIn the beginning, even sauron was not so. Also, the sons of feanor/feanor himself Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMysteriousOne Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 The differences between the two books are more prominent that the similarities. Tolkien's LOTR didn't have morally ambiguous characters; there was either good or evil. Whereas one of the most poignant themes of GRRM's is that every single character is just a different shade of grey. LOTR is pure fantasy whereas ASOIAF is human people just in a fantasy setting.Also ASOIAF is all about a power struggle between figures of near-equal calibre, it's a game for which men play. Whereas LOTR was a full-on smackdown of good vs bad.Anyway I digress. Similarities I believe would be the whole "weakness of men" business.Actually, many of the characters in LOTR were grey, barely any of the characters were truly evil or good. The only good characters is Eru Illuvatar and his like and the only evil characters was Melkor and the orcs etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ben Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 Still it's very very clear which "side" those characters are on for the most part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Hodor Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 LOTR didn't have morally ambiguous characters? Uhhh boromir? Denethor? Gollum? Even wormtongue wasn't wholly evil. What does gandalf say? Nothing is wholly evilIn the beginning, even sauron was not so.Also, the sons of feanor/feanor himselfActually, many of the characters in LOTR were grey, barely any of the characters were truly evil or good. The only good characters is Eru Illuvatar and his like and the only evil characters was Melkor and the orcs etc.In LOTR the corruption came from Melkor. You could anything evil back to him. not so in asoiaf. (this may be because asoiaf is much much smaller compared to Tolkien)There were a few morally grey characters, Yes there is denethor and gollum but they are more evil than good. Gollum had been almost completely corrupted by the ring. Feanor and his sons are also evil...corrupted by the lust of silmarils. Lust that Morgoth had filled in the world.also we know from first page that the ring will be destroyed or Morgoth will be defeated in the end. But that dosent mean that all stories have sweet endings. Infact Turin's story creeps me out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magic 8 Ball Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 Sean Bean died early in both of them.This is highly non-specific.Sean Bean dying is his schtick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Edmure Tully Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 In LOTR the corruption came from Melkor. You could anything evil back to him. not so in asoiaf. (this may be because asoiaf is much much smaller compared to Tolkien)There were a few morally grey characters, Yes there is denethor and gollum but they are more evil than good. Gollum had been almost completely corrupted by the ring. Feanor and his sons are also evil...corrupted by the lust of silmarils. Lust that Morgoth had filled in the world.also we know from first page that the ring will be destroyed or Morgoth will be defeated in the end. But that dosent mean that all stories have sweet endings. Infact Turin's story creeps me out.You could argue this about ASOIAF characters as well. Jaime wouldnt be the same piece of shit that he was from AGOT to ASOS without the influence of Cersei, most likely.Characters seem to be corrupted by lust or desire for something, whether it be a magic ring or their sisters vagina, or the iron throne. Its a bit of a stretch to say ALL the sons of Feanor were evil. Maedhros and Maglor certainly werent completely evil, and made several attempts at redemption only to fall at the final hurdle. Jamie could well go down that path.The big difference i see is the POV story telling format, which allows GRRM to delve deeper into the characters emotions and reasoning than tolkien's omniscient narration. It allows a better understanding of why the characters make the choices that they do, and is why the series is superior, in my opinion, and better suited to an older audience.Apologies for getting off topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caesar beyond the wall Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 I think for me the most tolkein-esque bit of the series so far is the quote about giants, direwolves and the CotF dissapearing from the world. I don't have the book on me right now so if someone can supply the quote that'd be great, but it felt like, just for a sentence, I was in the LotR! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ben Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 You could argue this about ASOIAF characters as well.You really can't. In LOTR there is a defining force of evil that corrupts mankind. In GoT people forge their own path. Sure, people have vices but that's not even close to the corruption caused by service to Morgoth or Sauron, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Edmure Tully Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 You really can't. In LOTR there is a defining force of evil that corrupts mankind. In GoT people forge their own path. Sure, people have vices but that's not even close to the corruption caused by service to Morgoth or Sauron, etc.Fair point. There is a definite source of all corruption in Tolkien's universe, and therein lies a big difference between the two.Kooked it a bit there.I Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire Eater Posted January 31, 2013 Author Share Posted January 31, 2013 And in one there is the walls of Gondor and in the other a Wall also. What a ripoff of LOTR....I think this thread has more stretching than a yoga class.This thread makes no such claim that GRRM ripped off LOTR, and bases everything off it. We just look at the LOTR inspirations and references.You just created a straw man, and beat it like Robert did Cersei.Ghost may also be inspired by Huan as WhiteGhost stated in another thread. Huan was a white dog that couldn't speak except the three times allowed by the Valar. Ghost also has the red eyes of Carcharoth.Shaggydog may be inspired by Carcharoth, the greatest wolf that ever lived. Carcharoth had black fur, was fed on the flesh of men and elves and bit off Beren's hand. Shaggydog tore a chunk of flesh from Mikken's thigh, and closed his jaws on Maester Luwin's hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood of the Flagon Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 There are profound similarities. Tolkien didn't have morally ambiguous characters or sex scenes, or acknowledge sex exited at all. I think Grrm wanted to write a LOTR for grown ups, a fantasy setting where people acted like real people. Think about it. A fantasy world, where many believe magic to be dead or dormant, strange things happening/waking. A great winter/shadow approaching, a prince that was promised, a variety of civilizations that are passed their prime and don't have the skill to resurrect glory. A true enemy of living things that people have forgotten, the vigilance of men failing...I love asoiaf and grrm is extremely creative and original but the fingerprints of tolkien are everywhere Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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