The Latest News
Connect with Us

Notable Releases
From the Store
Game of Thrones Targaryen Distressed Flock T-Shirt
Targaryen Distressed Flock T-Shirt
HBO US
Featured Sites
License Holders

Jump to content


Photo

Varys poisoned Tywin Lannister (a theory)


  • Please log in to reply
142 replies to this topic

#1 Moon-Pale Maiden

Moon-Pale Maiden

    Hedge Knight

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 367 posts

Posted 03 February 2013 - 09:26 PM

I've been pondering the theory that Tywin Lannister was poisoned using Widow's blood by Oberyn Martell, and I've come to a slightly different conclusion. I do believe the Tywin was poisoned with Widow's blood, but I believe that Varys (or one of his little birds) and NOT Oberyn Martell was the poisoner. I also believe that Varys intended to frame Oberyn Martell or the Tyrells for the murder, depending on which would benefit his goals better. He also had a backup plan. Here me out..

First, we read about the poison in Tyrion's trial:


Widow’s blood, this one is called, for the color. A cruel potion. It shuts down a man’s bladder and bowels, until he drowns in his own poisons. This wolfsbane, here basilisk venom, and this one the tears of Lys. Yes. I know them all. The Imp Tyrion Lannister stole them from my chambers, when he had me falsely imprisoned."


Why would we recieve a complete description about this one particular poison, and not the others, if we aren't to make use of this information? We are meant to understand the mechanics of widow's blood.
On the night Tyrion has Pycelle thrown in the Black Cells, he takes several jars from Pycelle's chambers.

When he was gone, Tyrion made a leisurely search of the quarters and collected a few more small jars from his shelves.


If Varys suspected that Tyrion had poisoned his sister, he would have realized right away that Tyrion had taken some bottles from Maester Pycelle's chambers, and would have the opportunity to blame anything that was missing on Tyrion, should it come to light. Pycelle would have blamed all of the missing bottles Tyrion, seeing his obvious opportunity. We don't know exactly when Varys (or a little bird sent by him) stole the widow's blood, but we can assume that Pycelle may not have realized until the trial.

Lord Tywin’s face was so dark that for half a heartbeat Tyrion wondered if he’d drunk some poisoned wine as well


This is during Tyrion's trial. This gives us the first real and explicit suggestion that Tywin might have been poisoned. A subliminal suggestion by G. Martin?

"Plan on a lengthy visit." Prince Oberyn sipped his wine. "You and Doran have many matters of mutual interest to discuss. Music, trade, history, wine, the dwarf’s penny... the laws of inheritance and succession. No doubt an uncle’s counsel would be of benefit to Queen Myrcella in the trying times ahead."
If Varys had his little birds listening, Oberyn was giving them a ripe earful.
"Your father," said Prince Oberyn, "may not live forever."
Something about the way he said it made the hairs on the back of Tyrion’s neck bristle. Suddenly he was mindful of Elia again, and all that Oberyn had said as they crossed the field of ashes. He wants the head that spoke the words, not just the hand that swung the sword. "It is not wise to speak such treasons in the Red Keep, my prince. The little birds are listening."
"Let them. Is it treason to say a man is mortal? Valar morghulis was how they said it in Valyria of old. All men must die. And the Doom came and proved it true."


This explicitly suggests that Varys' little birds are listening and would have gotten this information to Varys. If Oberyn had truly poisoned Tywin, I doubt he would have been so liberal in his conversation. Also, Oberyn knows, and admits as much, that any poisoning would sound suspiciously like the work of the Red Viper. It wouldn't be the brightest way for Oberyn to murder Tywin Lannister.

Tyrion walked slowly to the ladder, ran his hand across the lowest rung. "This will take me up to my bedchamber."
"Your lord father’s bedchamber now."
He looked up the shaft. "How far must I climb?"
"My lord, you are too weak for such follies, and there is besides no time. We must go."
"I have business above. How far?"
"Two hundred and thirty rungs, but whatever you intend-"
"Two hundred and thirty rungs, and then?"
"The tunnel to the left, but hear me -"
"How far along to the bedchamber?" Tyrion lifted a foot to the lowest rung of the ladder.
"No more than sixty feet. Keep one hand on the wall as you go. You will feel the doors. The bedchamber is the third." He sighed. "This is folly, my lord. Your brother has given you your life back. Would you cast it away, and mine with it?"


I don't believe that Varys expected or intended for Tyrion to kill his father, but seeing his chance to pin on another, he gave Tyrion all of the instructions. Varys knew he was going into hiding, so he wasn't worried about his own role in the poisoning. How did the poison get slipped into Tywin's drink? Why, a little bird, posing as a cup bearer.

Afterward he found Lord Tywin’s dagger on the bedside table and shoved it through his belt. A lion-headed mace, a poleaxe, and a crossbow had been hung on the walls. The poleaxe would be clumsy to wield inside a castle, and the mace was too high to reach, but a large wood-and-iron chest had been placed against the wall directly under the crossbow.


Varys knew that the crossbow was in easy reach; he had arranged for that furniture to be placed there. Why? That was his backup plan. A small child could easily reach the crossbow, kill Tywin while he was in bed with Shae, and sneak out through the hidden door. Or, if he needed to cast blame on the Tyrells, he may have come back after leading Tyrion away, and done the deed himself. He had already planted the Highgarden coin in Rugan's cell, remember. Both Tyrion's escape and the death of Tywin Lannister could have been pinned on the Tyrells.

He found his father where he knew he’d find him, seated in the dimness of the privy tower, bedrobe hiked up around his hips.
"Tyrion." If he was afraid, Tywin Lannister gave no hint of it. "Who released you from your cell?"
"I’d love to tell you, but I swore a holy oath."
"The eunuch," his father decided. "I’ll have his head for this. Is that my crossbow? Put it down."


Once Tyrion went missing, Tywin would have immediately suspected Varys, and so Varys would have had to kill him or else risk the strength and force of Tywin Lannister dragging him out for an inquisition.
Tyrion knew exactly where to find his father because he knew that he himself didn't steal Widow's blood, and that Varys' little birds were listening to Oberyn's damning speech and assumed that Varys had taken it upon himself to poison Tywin and blame it on Oberyn. It was easier for Tyrion to kill his father knowing that his father was already dead.

"Winter," said Ser Kevan. The word made a white mist in the air. He turned away from the
window.
Then something slammed him in the chest between the ribs, hard as a giant’s fist. It drove
the breath from him and sent him lurching backwards. The white raven took to the air, its pale
wings slapping him about the head. Ser Kevan half-sat and half-fell onto the window seat.
What … who … A quarrel was sunk almost to the fletching in his chest. No. No, that was how
my brother died. Blood was seeping out around the shaft.

Ser Kevan's death is described in almost the exact same wording as Tywin's. Further reinforcing the idea that this was Varys' plan all along.

He stood in a pool of shadow by a bookcase, plump, pale-faced, round-shouldered,
clutching a crossbow in soft powdered hands. Silk slippers swaddled his feet.
"Varys?"
The eunuch set the crossbow down.


...and using the exact same weapon.

you were threatening to undo all the queen’s good work, to reconcile Highgarden and Casterly
Rock, bind the Faith to your little king, unite the Seven Kingdoms under Tommen’s rule. So …"
A gust of wind blew up. Ser Kevan shivered violently.


We hear the rationale for Kevan's death, but wouldn't the same rational be used for Tywin's death since he also was in the process of reconciling the kingdom under Lannister and Tyrell rule?
Surely Varys had the means, the motive and certainly the opportunity to kill Tywin Lannister, and his death, whether by poison or by crossbow was already in the works before Tyrion got there. Tyrion just made everything that much easier for Varys.


#2 Gibson

Gibson

    Commoner

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 23 posts

Posted 03 February 2013 - 09:37 PM

this makes far too much sense

#3 Juan_Snow

Juan_Snow

    Hedge Knight

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 268 posts

Posted 03 February 2013 - 09:53 PM

George? Is that you?

#4 Amanda Lannister

Amanda Lannister

    Freerider

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 57 posts

Posted 03 February 2013 - 10:08 PM

Amazing. /bowdown.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':bowdown:' />

I had accepted the Oberyn/Widows blood theory and you just blew it out of the water.

I could not love this post more, and posts like these are exactly why I keep coming back to this site.





(edit: spelling)

Edited by Amanda Lannister, 03 February 2013 - 10:09 PM.


#5 WiDMNDBAMMD

WiDMNDBAMMD

    Council Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 864 posts

Posted 03 February 2013 - 10:09 PM

I'm confused. What is Varys motivation for killing Tywin?

Edited by WiDMNDBAMMD, 03 February 2013 - 10:49 PM.


#6 Amanda Lannister

Amanda Lannister

    Freerider

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 57 posts

Posted 03 February 2013 - 10:14 PM

It was the Red Viper.

"To be sure, I have much to thank your sister for. If not for her acqusation of you at the feast. It might well be you(Tyrion) judging me.... After all who knows more about poison than the Red Viper of Dorne?"

It makes no matter(the stuff about Dornish laws putting women ahead of younger men in succession) my father would never go for it.

"Your father may not live forever" said Prince Oberyn

Something about the way that he said it made the hairs on the back of Tyrion's neck stand up. He wants the head that spoke the words not just the hand that swung the sword.




The OP already made reference to that quote, and explained her opinion. IMO your post brought nothing to this discussion. You basically just said what the OP said and gave no further evidence... what is the point of that?

#7 Kolantero

Kolantero

    Anti-Feminist

  • Banned
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,130 posts

Posted 03 February 2013 - 10:18 PM

This explicitly suggests that Varys' little birds are listening and would have gotten this information to Varys. If Oberyn had truly poisoned Tywin, I doubt he would have been so liberal in his conversation. Also, Oberyn knows, and admits as much, that any poisoning would sound suspiciously like the work of the Red Viper. It wouldn't be the brightest way for Oberyn to murder Tywin Lannister.


I like this theory. I didn't agree with the "Oberyn poisoned Tywin" theory for the reason in the quote above. This theory makes much more sense

#8 Mr Hodor

Mr Hodor

    Noble

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 673 posts

Posted 03 February 2013 - 10:31 PM

The OP already made reference to that quote, and explained her opinion. IMO your post brought nothing to this discussion. You basically just said what the OP said and gave no further evidence... what is the point of that?

This quote makes it feel like oberyn has poisoned tywin.

Also there was a part of Oberyn breaking bread with Tywin. Why would he do that, if not to poison him. he hated tywin.

#9 Ser Gerion Galifrey

Ser Gerion Galifrey

    Commoner

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 22 posts

Posted 03 February 2013 - 10:34 PM

Haha Tywin was pooping.

Seriously though, well done. Makes so much sense, and is followed up and supported by ten thousand quotes.

Applause are in order.

#10 Axrendale

Axrendale

    Landed Knight

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 520 posts

Posted 03 February 2013 - 10:39 PM

Also there was a part of Oberyn breaking bread with Tywin. Why would he do that, if not to poison him. he hated tywin.


Because he, Tywin, and Mace Tyrell were to be judges together in Tyrion's trial, and were fellow members of the small council to boot.

It wasn't a social gathering, it was a business meeting. Why not eat at the same time?

#11 STANN1SBARATHEON

STANN1SBARATHEON

    Squire

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 163 posts

Posted 03 February 2013 - 10:44 PM

these interesting bits are meant to make us scratch our heads and ask "what?" but whether or not martin actually intended them to be pivitol story plot points has yet to be seen, we still have two books to go


but tywin lannister is too smart to be poisoned by anyone, thats why he's lived so long despite his enemies. only a one in a million situation like the one tyrion found himself in is the only way someone could get away with ding tywin in

#12 Amanda Lannister

Amanda Lannister

    Freerider

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 57 posts

Posted 03 February 2013 - 10:44 PM

This quote makes it feel like oberyn has poisoned tywin.

Also there was a part of Oberyn breaking bread with Tywin. Why would he do that, if not to poison him. he hated tywin.


My point was that the OP already quoted the exact part of the book, and gave her evidence to her theory. All WiDMNDBAMMD did was re quote that part with no supporting evidence. There is no point in a post like that. The OP already pointed that part out, why do it again unless you are going to bring new ideas/evidence/theories to the thread?

I think the OP pretty much shot down all other theories if you read it thoroughly, and with an open mind. There have obviously been a bunch of other threads about Oberyn poisoning Tywin. This thread is original, well thought out, well worded, and I totally agree with Ser Gerion. Applause are in order. /thumbsup.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':thumbsup:' />

#13 The Unborn

The Unborn

    Squire

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 191 posts

Posted 03 February 2013 - 11:07 PM

I like !

#14 Moon-Pale Maiden

Moon-Pale Maiden

    Hedge Knight

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 367 posts

Posted 03 February 2013 - 11:07 PM

Thank you so much for taking the time to read this theory and for your appreciation. I thank the dissenters as well. I welcome a hearty debate!

But, I have to bow down to the original poster who came up with the Oberyn Poisoning Theory, as the Varys Poisoning Theory is a clear extension of this idea. As Amanda Lannister stated, there have been several posts about this already, so my apologies that I shamefully do not know exactly who came up with the theory first.

The idea that Tywin was poisoned really blew me away, as like many others, I didn't catch it during my (many) readings. After reading the Oberyn Poisoning Theory, there were just a few things that nagged at me, so I dug deeper to figure out if perhaps there was more to the story. I might be dead wrong, of course, it's just a theory.

The genius of Martin's work, is that we may never know. /cheers.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':cheers:' />

#15 WiDMNDBAMMD

WiDMNDBAMMD

    Council Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 864 posts

Posted 03 February 2013 - 11:28 PM

My point was that the OP already quoted the exact part of the book, and gave her evidence to her theory. All WiDMNDBAMMD did was re quote that part with no supporting evidence. There is no point in a post like that.


You're right. I made a small error of a person taking a "implied" statement and saying I think it means this instead of that.I realized that and edited my post. While looking through the books for more evidence. My post did highlight the one quote above it. About the Red Viper getting blamed for Joffrey if it wasn't for the Imp.

DwD First Tyrion chapter because I know that Tyrion reflected back and told Varys what he'd done and Varys said "You should not have climbed that ladder" he said reproachfully

so OP I'm sorry nice theory but we can see the Red Viper's intentions very well and clearly in the books. We aren't told how long it takes to make the poison work but judging by how slow the stuff on the Mountain works we can except that this not being able to poop deal would be a very slow painful death. Tywin was already poisoned by the time that Tyrion had lost his trial( you pointed that out) Jaime didn't force Varys to release Tyrion till after he was found guilty.

Yes Varys would be accused of letting Tyrion go by Tywin but he can't go back in time and poison Tywin.

The dots just don't add up.

Edited by WiDMNDBAMMD, 03 February 2013 - 11:30 PM.


#16 Moon-Pale Maiden

Moon-Pale Maiden

    Hedge Knight

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 367 posts

Posted 03 February 2013 - 11:30 PM

I'm confused. What is Varys motivation for killing Tywin?


My personal belief is that his motivation for killing Tywin is much the same as his motivation for killing Ser Kevan. Destabilization of the Lannister/Tyrell rule. A fractured, weak seven kingdoms are easier for Aegon's successful invasion.

#17 Moon-Pale Maiden

Moon-Pale Maiden

    Hedge Knight

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 367 posts

Posted 03 February 2013 - 11:32 PM

You're right. I made a small error of a person taking a "implied" statement and saying I think it means this instead of that.I realized that and edited my post. While looking through the books for more evidence. My post did highlight the one quote above it. About the Red Viper getting blamed for Joffrey if it wasn't for the Imp.

DwD First Tyrion chapter because I know that Tyrion reflected back and told Varys what he'd done and Varys said "You should not have climbed that ladder" he said reproachfully

so OP I'm sorry nice theory but we can see the Red Viper's intentions very well and clearly in the books. We aren't told how long it takes to make the poison work but judging by how slow the stuff on the Mountain works we can except that this not being able to poop deal would be a very slow painful death. Tywin was already poisoned by the time that Tyrion had lost his trial( you pointed that out) Jaime didn't force Varys to release Tyrion till after he was found guilty.

Yes Varys would be accused of letting Tyrion go by Tywin but he can't go back in time and poison Tywin.

The dots just don't add up.


I believe Tywin was already poisoned before Tyrion's release. Even if Varys did not anticipate Jaime wanting his aide in releasing Tyrion, everything was already planned out. Varys' plans changed somewhat because of Tyrion's act, but in no way would have prevented Tywin's death, nor was Tyrion's release a condition of Tywin's death.

Edited by Moon-Pale Maiden, 03 February 2013 - 11:35 PM.


#18 Flig

Flig

    Noble

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 658 posts

Posted 03 February 2013 - 11:35 PM

While I'm still not sure which theory I like better, that Oberyn poisoned Tywin or that it was Varys, I have to question how Varys's assassination of Kevan in the same manner that Tyrion killed Tywin is supposed to be evidence for Varys's poisoning of Tywin.

I had always assumed that Varys used the crossbow to implicate Tyrion in Kevan's death. He may be a world away at this point, but Cersei is already seeing him around every corner, why not play on her paranoia to further the disorder in the throne room?

#19 Moon-Pale Maiden

Moon-Pale Maiden

    Hedge Knight

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 367 posts

Posted 03 February 2013 - 11:42 PM

Also, we don't know how much time passed between Jaime deciding to rescue Tyrion and when he told Varys. They must have had enough time to arrange for a ship, so alternatively, Varys could have set up the crossbow situation to take out Tywin because of his role in Tyrion's escape. Perhaps he worried that poison wouldn't be swifter than retribution, or else he wanted to couple the Tyrion escape with Tywin's death as a way to further inflame suspicions. Either he or a little bird could have accomplished the crossbow death on the evening of Tyrion's escape. Varys is an opportunist but he also doesn't take chances. He seems like the type of person to always have a plan "b".

#20 Super Hans

Super Hans

    Landed Knight

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 425 posts

Posted 03 February 2013 - 11:43 PM

Great post. I buy it 100%