Varys poisoned Tywin Lannister (a theory)

[KingSlayer36]

My personal belief is that his motivation for killing Tywin is much the same as his motivation for killing Ser Kevan. Destabilization of the Lannister/Tyrell rule. A fractured, weak seven kingdoms are easier for Aegon's successful invasion.

I just don't see the proof that Varys poisoned Tywin. Nice theory though. I think its possible that Red Viper used some kind of slow poison on Tywin before Tyrion killed him. But the evidence that Tywin was poisoned at all is weak.

[aryagonnakill#2]

these interesting bits are meant to make us scratch our heads and ask "what?" but whether or not martin actually intended them to be pivitol story plot points has yet to be seen, we still have two books to go

but tywin lannister is too smart to be poisoned by anyone, thats why he's lived so long despite his enemies. only a one in a million situation like the one tyrion found himself in is the only way someone could get away with ding tywin in

Varys obviously could have killed him at any time.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

I just don't see the proof that Varys poisoned Tywin. Nice theory though. I think its possible that Red Viper used some kind of slow poison on Tywin before Tyrion killed him. But the evidence that Tywin was poisoned at all is weak.

Wasn't it the Red Viper who gave Tyrion those drops he used on Cersei? Poison isn't always used to kill. I could totally see Oberyn messing with Tywin by changing his garderobe schedule. And if Varys was giving him the same thing (and let's throw Mace in just for fun), it could have ended up being a completely accidental lethal dose, and Tyrion just managed to shoot him before he fully succumbed.

The poison idea really explains the smell. There's nothing else to explain that, except the lovely concept that he was a rotten man and so he had a rotten smell. But there are plenty of rotten people who smell no worse than anyone else once they're dead.

[dannyk65]

Tons of great (and not so great) points in this and the Oberyn thread.....

What makes the most logical sense to me is that Oberyn gave Tywin Widow's Blood at their dinner and Varys caught on. He then hatched a plan to have Tywin murdered by Tyrion during his escape by planting a drugged Shae in Tywin's bed wearing his Hand necklace. Varys wanted to keep the blame off Dorne due to his Aegon plan, so he steered Tyrion to kill Tywin for all to (eventually) see....

Seems to add up IMO.

[dannyk65]

Ok, just finished SoS (my first re-read) and it's obvious Shae was nailing Tywin, and not planted there by Varys. She says something along the lines of 'M'lord will be back any minute' to Tyrion just before he strangles her...

In the same chapter, Varys mentions how easy it was to poison the guards so they would pass out...

Perhaps a coinflip between Oberyn/Varys poisoning Tywin, but now I'd lean toward Varys...

[dinner]

i don't get how robert baratheon didn't kill varys after he took the throne

I never understood why Robert kept Jaime in the Ki g' s guard. Clearly he was an oath breaker who had killed the last King meanwhile Tywin wanted Jaime back home so he cod marry and produce little Lannisters so it would have made sense for Robert and Tyson to agree to send Jaime home.

[Dolorous Gabe]

This is a very interesting theory and I think there is some semblance of truth in the explanation of the unfolding of events, but I find it more likely that Oberyn was poisoning Tywin. I suspect Varys had some schemes in play and Oberyn's scheme for killing the mountain and Tywin just kind of intertwined with them. I highly doubt whatever Varys was originally planning would have led to him having to flee. The sequence of events unfolding probably forced his hand in some way.

[Good Guy Garlan]

I think everyone was probably planning to kill Tywin

IIRC, LF tells Sansa that the Great Western alliance [between the Lannisters and the Tyrells] would remain...for a time, so I think he had something up his sleeve already

[dannyk65]

I think everyone was probably planning to kill Tywin

IIRC, LF tells Sansa that the Great Western alliance [between the Lannisters and the Tyrells] would remain...for a time, so I think he had something up his sleeve already

That's interesting, too......

Must have WoW ASAP!!!

[unitron]

If the mosaic on the floor doesn't trigger Tyrion realizing/remembering that it was part of the secret path to the hand's chambers, or if it does but he is still more concerned with taking this opportunity to get the bleep out of Dodge while his head is still attached, how was Varys (who didn't know ahead of time that Jamie was going to 'fess up about Tyrion's first wife) planning to get Tyrion to play his assigned part in this elaborate scheme to get him up there at just the right time when Tywin was otherwise occupied and wouldn't notice someone taking his crossbow?

"Varys maneuvers Tyrion into killing Tywin" is far too Rube Goldberg-ian for it to be a plan upon which anyone could rely.

This is separate from the question of whether Varys poisoned Tywin.

[Lion Of The Night]

If the mosaic on the floor doesn't trigger Tyrion realizing/remembering that it was part of the secret path to the hand's chambers, or if it does but he is still more concerned with taking this opportunity to get the bleep out of Dodge while his head is still attached, how was Varys (who didn't know ahead of time that Jamie was going to 'fess up about Tyrion's first wife) planning to get Tyrion to play his assigned part in this elaborate scheme to get him up there at just the right time when Tywin was otherwise occupied and wouldn't notice someone taking his crossbow?

"Varys maneuvers Tyrion into killing Tywin" is far too Rube Goldberg-ian for it to be a plan upon which anyone could rely.

This is separate from the question of whether Varys poisoned Tywin.

True. There is good evidence that Tywin was poisoned, but Tyrion shooting him was not part of the plan, just a lucky coincidence.

My money is on Oberyn poisoning him.

[Mithras]

"Varys maneuvers Tyrion into killing Tywin" is far too Rube Goldberg-ian for it to be a plan upon which anyone could rely.

It was worth trying. In any case, I bet Varys was going to kill Tywin anyway had Tyrion not done it.

[A wilding]

If the mosaic on the floor doesn't trigger Tyrion realizing/remembering that it was part of the secret path to the hand's chambers, or if it does but he is still more concerned with taking this opportunity to get the bleep out of Dodge while his head is still attached, how was Varys (who didn't know ahead of time that Jamie was going to 'fess up about Tyrion's first wife) planning to get Tyrion to play his assigned part in this elaborate scheme to get him up there at just the right time when Tywin was otherwise occupied and wouldn't notice someone taking his crossbow?

"Varys maneuvers Tyrion into killing Tywin" is far too Rube Goldberg-ian for it to be a plan upon which anyone could rely.

This is separate from the question of whether Varys poisoned Tywin.

It is a point, but Varys was clearly up to something.

Everything else was in darkness, but the mosaic room was lit up. Varys spends ages messing about with a lock for the door out of the room that has suspiciously suddenly got stuck, giving Tyrion lots of time to look around and think. When Tyrion recognises the mosaic, Varys' first comment is that inflammatory "your father's chambers now". Etc, etc.