The role of Braavos in tWoW

[The Others Take Ya]

I think when it comes to the power structure of Braavos, the FM are top and the Iron Bank and Sealord operate under them. I think this because the very nature of a greeting in Braavos is "Valar morgulis" and "Valar Dohaeris." All men must die/all men must serve and I think that's meant to be a reminder for all in recognition that it was because of those that offered the gift of death that the men in Braavos are free to live in relative harmony. It reminds me of the pact with the CotF, where part of the deal was to keep the peace in the North in exchange for ending the war.

One thing that's given me pause is that there is no statue for the Old gods to be prayed to specifically IN the HoB&W. Instead the door itself is half weirwood. To me this speaks to the fact that the Old Gods and Many Faced God are very closely linked, and are probably even one and the same. Otherwise where's the Old God's representation for followers of Northern Westeros to pray to?

Its also interesting that the moonsingers are the ones who led the people of Braavos to the secret city. Direwolves sing to the moon all the time in these books. Nymeria and Ghost specifically. The moon is on the door of the HoB&W. So could it be that the moonsingers were people from the North or CotF? Now that I think about it, there was a Stark that went missing wasn't there? And his son burned all his ships? I wonder if that happened around the same time as the founding of Braavos.

The nature of how Braavos is a series of interconnected islands and hidden by fogs is just like the crannogmen's Greywater watch which can even move to hide itself. In fact it always seems like we have weirwoods and CotF in relation to islands, there is the Isle of the Gods by Harrenhal, and now in TWOW

Asha's convinced Stannis to take Theon before the weirwood on an island by the small town they are sheltering at.

So all these things makes me wonder if the CotF terraformed the city and actually made Braavos to hide the freed slaves.

So its because of all this I think Braavos will have a huge role in TWOW and also I think the many faced god will kill everybody Arya wants to have killed (within reason). Simply because it's her brother Bran that's being trained in the weirwood. I think they'll support Dany because she had a vision of the door in the HotU that was about the doors in a different state:

From Dany's vision in the HotU, ACoK:

Finally the stair opened. To her right, a set of wide wooden doors had been thrown open. They were fashioned of ebony and weirwood, the black and white grains swirling and twisting in strange interwoven patterns. They were very beautiful, yet somehow frightening.

...

She took a step forward. But then Drogon leapt from her shoulder. He flew to the top of the ebony-and-weirwood door, perched there, and began to bite at the carved wood.

“A willful beast,” laughed a handsome young man. “Shall we teach you the secret speech of dragonkind? Come, come.”

Doubt seized her. The great door was so heavy it took all of Dany’s strength to budge it, but finally it began to move.

So here, we don't see it half black/half white from one side to another. Here the ebony and weirwood grains of wood are intermixed and this is totally different then any other representation of the doors we've seen. And she finds it frightening. So I think the FM are a central player in the upcoming conflict with the Others.

[Arya_Ghostface]

I like the symbolism you're describing. I'd love it if it were true, but it could very well have a structural explanation: in the House of Black and White, the main door would be black and white. Ebony is a well-known type of black wood even in our world, and weirwood is the only mention of white-coloured wood in the aSoIaF world. So carving a door out of ebony and weirwood to create a black and white door is the only logical way to go. The fact that Dany, who has never been in the north of Westeros, knows and recognises weirwood in her vision at tHotU suggests that weirwood is present in Essos too, and is not only associated with the North and the old gods, even though it appears to be so in Westeros.

But Dany's vision of the ebony and weirwood door in tHotU is troublesome, because it leads her first to the false warlocks and then to the Undying themselves. So does the door sympolise the false or the true? And why is the most important door of a place whose predominant colours are blue and purple black and white?

To me it seems that there are too many separate sources of (true) magic in the world of ice and fire, and it would make sense if some of those sources were actually connected, or indeed the same, leading up to just two fighting camps. So maybe the dragonlords and the red god are associated, and maybe the Undying of Qarth, the Others and the FM are somehow related?

[sumant30]

Petyr Baelish is a faceless man for sure. His family comes from Braavos, he's good with coin and plotting and getting people killed.

BEWARE OF THE MOCKINGBIRD

He can't be a FM because the FM have to give the gift thmeselves.

Maybe it's the skeptic in me, but I believe very little of the honor that the FM try to portray. They have to have some sort of political agenda, with or without IB influence.

This is definitely a possible theory because how can they themselves choose their own targets and kill them without some possible hidden agenda behind it, there is more to FM than has been shown.

The Iron Bank will back Stannis. Cersei has ceased repayment, Euron is a pirate, and Dany has dragons, which Braavosi have an deep set fear of. Stannis is the best option as he is known to be a prudent man, and they know he needs their support.

I think they will definitely back stannis but also they will be keeping watch on danny remember jaqen is in oldtown trying to get the book on how to kill dragons may be it is Iron bank behind it or the bravosi.

They back up Stannis that's true, but the Bravosi aren't that affraid of dragons (they sided with Aegon against Volantis remember) + Dany has the whole I abolish slavery vibe to her. That's more important to the Bravosi.

I think the bravosi are putting one leg on stannis and one leg on danny so whichever sinks they are still safe.

[ladyinblack]

I think when it comes to the power structure of Braavos, the FM are top and the Iron Bank and Sealord operate under them. I think this because the very nature of a greeting in Braavos is "Valar morgulis" and "Valar Dohaeris." All men must die/all men must serve and I think that's meant to be a reminder for all in recognition that it was because of those that offered the gift of death that the men in Braavos are free to live in relative harmony. It reminds me of the pact with the CotF, where part of the deal was to keep the peace in the North in exchange for ending the war.

One thing that's given me pause is that there is no statue for the Old gods to be prayed to specifically IN the HoB&W. Instead the door itself is half weirwood. To me this speaks to the fact that the Old Gods and Many Faced God are very closely linked, and are probably even one and the same. Otherwise where's the Old God's representation for followers of Northern Westeros to pray to?

Its also interesting that the moonsingers are the ones who led the people of Braavos to the secret city. Direwolves sing to the moon all the time in these books. Nymeria and Ghost specifically. The moon is on the door of the HoB&W. So could it be that the moonsingers were people from the North or CotF? Now that I think about it, there was a Stark that went missing wasn't there? And his son burned all his ships? I wonder if that happened around the same time as the founding of Braavos.

The nature of how Braavos is a series of interconnected islands and hidden by fogs is just like the crannogmen's Greywater watch which can even move to hide itself. In fact it always seems like we have weirwoods and CotF in relation to islands, there is the Isle of the Gods by Harrenhal, and now in TWOW

Asha's convinced Stannis to take Theon before the weirwood on an island by the small town they are sheltering at.

So all these things makes me wonder if the CotF terraformed the city and actually made Braavos to hide the freed slaves.

So its because of all this I think Braavos will have a huge role in TWOW and also I think the many faced god will kill everybody Arya wants to have killed (within reason). Simply because it's her brother Bran that's being trained in the weirwood. I think they'll support Dany because she had a vision of the door in the HotU that was about the doors in a different state:

From Dany's vision in the HotU, ACoK:

So here, we don't see it half black/half white from one side to another. Here the ebony and weirwood grains of wood are intermixed and this is totally different then any other representation of the doors we've seen. And she finds it frightening. So I think the FM are a central player in the upcoming conflict with the Others.

Excellent post

[thunder_chicken]

Probably coincidence, but this just made me think of the Stark's insistence on executing criminals personally. Kind of interesting when thinking about a possible link between FM and the old gods.

[Artemis]

One thing that's given me pause is that there is no statue for the Old gods to be prayed to specifically IN the HoB&W. Instead the door itself is half weirwood. To me this speaks to the fact that the Old Gods and Many Faced God are very closely linked, and are probably even one and the same. Otherwise where's the Old God's representation for followers of Northern Westeros to pray to?

Its also interesting that the moonsingers are the ones who led the people of Braavos to the secret city. Direwolves sing to the moon all the time in these books. Nymeria and Ghost specifically. The moon is on the door of the HoB&W. So could it be that the moonsingers were people from the North or CotF? Now that I think about it, there was a Stark that went missing wasn't there? And his son burned all his ships? I wonder if that happened around the same time as the founding of Braavos.

Very insightful! You should take a look at this thread by the wonderful Elaena Targaryen who considers many of the same topics you've touched upon and might help.

As for the Moonsingers Temple, I've always wondered whether there would be a weirwood within since there seems to be a lot of heavy-handed and not-so-subtle comparisons of the tree to the moon in the novels.

[bemused]

I definitely think there must have been quite a few followers of the old gods among the slaves in Valyria. And I've always thought that the attitude toward death is most compatible between the followers of the MFG and the old gods ( as compared to the other religions )...A natural and inevitable thing..." Valar Morghulis" and Ygritte's ," All men must die and all women , too .." etc.

In Westeros we occasionally see people ask for a (the) "gift" when they are near death and suffering greatly .. but death is always a gift to the FM...

But there wouldn't be a statue relating to the old gods in the HoB&W. Those statues are all to the particular representations of death in each of the religions , and the old gods have no personifications of separate aspects of godhead.

I think there may be a link between the moonsingers and followers of the old gods. I've seen threads in the past that linked the connection flowing from the Moonsingers across to the wildlings , but I think that's exactly backwards.

We won't know for a while yet , but this connects ,in my mind, to my suspicions about Val ( and the late Dalla ).

GRRM has said the religion of the old gods ( not the gods per se ) is based on the old Norse religion. I feel Dalla and Val could be similar to the Vala ( English terminology ) - priestess/seers in the old Norse religious practices. Vala were particularly adept at predicting /locating the best place and time for battle and other enterprises.

The Moonsingers found the location for Braavos. Val says she knows where she must go when she goes to find Tormund.She tells Jon when to expect her based on the phases of the moon. He hears he singing ( he thinks only to the little monster ..she jokes (?) that she's singing to herself ) I could say more , but I don't want to derail this thread. ;)

I think Braavos is a triarchy , but I'm not sure if I think the FM are always at the head. I think it may be more like the Volantine model.. it always takes a 2-1 ratio to decide major policies... partly because ,as Arya thinks , when the Sealord dies , then the knives come out ... and this model comes directly from Valyria.

ETA : and here's my slightly divergent link..:D

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/66294-tormund-and-val-%3B-jons-intermediaries-to-the-old-gods/

[Artemis]

Also another thing to keep in mind is that the marriage pact between Arianne Martell and Viserys Targaryen was signed in Braavos along with the signatures of Oberyn Martell, Willem Darry and the Sealord of Braavos. The latter character seems to be in failing health. There seems to be ties between the Targaryens (most specifically) and Braavos.

“The tigers held sway for almost a century after the Doom of Valyria. For a time they were

successful. A Volantene fleet took Lys and a Volantene army captured Myr, and for two

generations all three cities were ruled from within the Black Walls. That ended when the tigers

tried to swallow Tyrosh. Pentos came into the war on the Tyroshi side, along with the

Westerosi Storm King. Braavos provided a Lyseni exile with a hundred warships, Aegon

Targaryen flew forth from Dragonstone on the Black Dread, and Myr and Lys rose up in

rebellion. The war left the Disputed Lands a waste, and freed Lys and Myr from the yoke. -ADWD

We know from the Reek TWoW sample that Justin Massey will be going to Braavos via Eastwatch to hire sellswords for Stannis. I'm also thinking Ser Harys Swyft will probably be showing up in Braavos to treat with the Iron Bank if he ends up following Ser Kevan's instructions. The funny thing is, at some point in the epilogue of ADwD, both Pycelle and Swyft ask Kevan Lannister for more guards and he tells them to hire the Mountain's men. Now if Harys Swyft ends up taking the Mountain's men as his guard to Braavos, then he'll be bringing along Dunsen and Raff the Sweetling. Arya will be thrilled.

[bemused]

I think the Sealord who signed the marriage pact was the one previous to the current one . i've long thought that when Viserys and Dany were turned out , it wasn't just because of Darry's death , but perhaps that of the Sealord as well, and the new one felt no need to uphold his policies.

It makes me wonder how long this one has been dying ( since the birth of the dragons ? ) and whether we'll see a more pronounced friendliness to Dany with the accession of the new one.

[Big Daddy Dave]

I think it's a lot simpler than people are theorizing. the Iron Bank wants it's loans repaid. The current royal house in King's landing, the Lannisters, are not paying these debts, despite their name. The IB will hire the FM to make it possible for Stannis to fill a vacuum that they create. Stannis is the IB's plan A. If he doesn't work, they can always go to a Danerys or another candidate.

But in the meantime, why is there a FM in Oldtown? It's obvious: Oldtown's big claim to fame (for the purposes of the plot anyway) is that it churns out Maesters. And who SUDDENLY has a job opening for a Maester? King Tommen in King's Landing. Maybe we'll suddenly see Jaqen take a new face as a Maester who gets assigned to King Tommen in TWOW. There he'd be in a position to dispose of Tommen, which would also further the plot for Cersei and Stannis at the same time. I think Tommen is going to die shortly and we will see a rapid succession of kings after his demise.

I know this implies a link between the Iron Bank/FM and Varys. I haven't even worked out why Varys would want this, unless he thinks Stannis on the throne is only destined to fail and will offer him more of the instability his plan requires before Aegon strides into KL as a welcome breath of fresh air for a weary populace. At least, that's all I've got on a Varys connection that makes sense. I just can't ignore that Pycelle is suddenly murdered by Varys' birds, RIGHT when a FM is in Oldtown in a position to masquerade as a master when KL will need a new one.

[Arya_Ghostface]

Now if Harys Swyft ends up taking the Mountain's men as his guard to Braavos, then he'll be bringing along Dunsen and Raff the Sweetling. Arya will be thrilled.

Ohhhh I like that! Now I'm hoping it will happen! But what happens to her training if she kills them? Will the Kindly Man allow her to stay on?

I had never thought of the Archmaester vacancy. To be honest I never wondered why Varys had Pycelle killed. I was just so glad he died (Tyrion exposed him as hypocritic scum) that I never paused to wonder why he had to die from Varys' perspective. He was old, ailing, disgraced, easily manipulated and overall unlikely to pose a threat. But if Varys wants a new Archmaester in place, one he is friendlier with, then it makes sense. Now, whether a disguised FM will be friends with Varys, or if Varys will expect the real person to show up and get a FM instead, that I cannot know.

Also, Jaqen is currently with Sam and Sarella, why team up with them if he is to leave Oldtown just a little while later?

[The Others Take Ya]

I like the symbolism you're describing. I'd love it if it were true, but it could very well have a structural explanation: in the House of Black and White, the main door would be black and white. Ebony is a well-known type of black wood even in our world, and weirwood is the only mention of white-coloured wood in the aSoIaF world. So carving a door out of ebony and weirwood to create a black and white door is the only logical way to go. The fact that Dany, who has never been in the north of Westeros, knows and recognises weirwood in her vision at tHotU suggests that weirwood is present in Essos too, and is not only associated with the North and the old gods, even though it appears to be so in Westeros.

But Dany's vision of the ebony and weirwood door in tHotU is troublesome, because it leads her first to the false warlocks and then to the Undying themselves. So does the door sympolise the false or the true? And why is the most important door of a place whose predominant colours are blue and purple black and white?

To me it seems that there are too many separate sources of (true) magic in the world of ice and fire, and it would make sense if some of those sources were actually connected, or indeed the same, leading up to just two fighting camps. So maybe the dragonlords and the red god are associated, and maybe the Undying of Qarth, the Others and the FM are somehow related?

The way I've been thinking of it lately, is that the trees, ravens and magic used to make walls and fortresses are the colors they are because they've all been hijacked by blood magic. So that's how I'm inclined to think they could be connected.

original "quartheen" trees: black with blue inky sap

weirwoods: white with red sap (could have been turned red because of blood magic)

I'll probably have to make a post about it to fully explain myself though because I ended up typing a lot of stuff that would derail this thread! I edited it down and saved it for later. Plus there could already be a similar thread. :D

Excellent post

Thanks!

Very insightful! You should take a look at this thread by the wonderful Elaena Targaryen who considers many of the same topics you've touched upon and might help.

As for the Moonsingers Temple, I've always wondered whether there would be a weirwood within since there seems to be a lot of heavy-handed and not-so-subtle comparisons of the tree to the moon in the novels.

Thanks for the link! I'll check that out! :)

While I'd love it if a weirwood was in the temple, I think Arya went to all the temples once with the Sailor's wife when she did her prayer rounds, and a living tree is rare enough in Braavos that my impression was it would end up being remarked on in the story. However something could be carved out of weirwood too or we may have petrified weirwoods that could be mistaken for stone and Arya may not have noticed that. I did a gigantic post on stone and its "living" qualities with a plethora of quotes from the book, so I think its entirely possible certain stone is as much a conduit as trees.

Once I can find it I'll add the link. edit: here it is.

Now that I think about it, maybe the stone dragons of dragonstone are actually the state of dragons once they die. Kind of like how hot molten lava cools to stone. I wonder if they got "wightified" if they'd come to "life" again like in Dany's vision? XD coooooollll

[Arya_Ghostface]

The way I've been thinking of it lately, is that the trees, ravens and magic used to make walls and fortresses are the colors they are because they've all been hijacked by blood magic. So that's how I'm inclined to think they could be connected.

original "quartheen" trees: black with blue inky sap

weirwoods: white with red sap (could have been turned red because of blood magic)

I'll probably have to make a post about it to fully explain myself though because I ended up typing a lot of stuff that would derail this thread! I edited it down and saved it for later. Plus there could already be a similar thread. :D

While I'd love it if a weirwood was in the temple, I think Arya went to all the temples once with the Sailor's wife when she did her prayer rounds, and a living tree is rare enough in Braavos that my impression was it would end up being remarked on in the story. However something could be carved out of weirwood too or we may have petrified weirwoods that could be mistaken for stone and Arya may not have noticed that. I did a gigantic post on stone and its "living" qualities with a plethora of quotes from the book, so I think its entirely possible certain stone is as much a conduit as trees.

Once I can find it I'll add the link. edit: here it is.

Now that I think about it, maybe the stone dragons of dragonstone are actually the state of dragons once they die. Kind of like how hot molten lava cools to stone. I wonder if they got "wightified" if they'd come to "life" again like in Dany's vision? XD coooooollll

Yes I agree that the unusual colours of the trees are probably based on magic. For one thing, weirwoods are said to last forever if left untouched, no living thing is immortal, some trees (like some sequoias) have huge lifespans, but they, too, will eventually die. So the immortality of the weirwood suggests some magic at hand. Also, blue and red leaves will be no help to photosynthesis which requires chlorofyll (green) to work. So unusual colours are quite reliable indicators of magic. Whether the weirwood started out magic, or was made magic after blood magic sacrifice like the one seen in the last Bran chapter of aDwD, it's hard to tell.

Thanks for the link to the topic. I read the whole of your first post but didn't comment because I have nothing interesting to say really, except 'well thought-out'! Many living magical things seem to turn to stone instead of rot, and Mel is talking about waking dragons from stone. So the stone dragons on Dragonstone may well be just waiting to be revived! (Actually no, I have a comment and I'll make it there :D )

Now back on Braavos, I would be shocked to see a weirwood in tHoBaW, but I think we should expect a merging of cults at some point. Like the red god and old Valyria and Asshai or the old gods and the FM and the moonsingers, or something along those lines. There just can't be so many different magical powers, all these cults are different interpretations of the same confilicting magic sources imo.

[Dire Rabbit]

Huon pine never decays.

[Arya_Ghostface]

Huon pine never decays.

I learn something new every day! :)

(googled images of it and it looks incredibly beautiful, thanks for letting me know)

[Dire Rabbit]

I learn something new every day! :)

(googled images of it and it looks incredibly beautiful, thanks for letting me know)

It's a pretty damn awesome tree, one of the treasures of Tasmania!

[Arya_Ghostface]

It's a pretty damn awesome tree, one of the treasures of Tasmania!

;)

Let's get back to Braavos though, because we veered off topic there!

Not sure if there's anything else to say though, without linking Braavos to some other story arc. But here's a question:

Do you think Arya will meet Justin Massey? How will that go down?

[Red Raven]

Bravos is just home to FM and IB. I don't think there is any more to it than that.

Agreed. The most important institutions are there but they're largely apolitical. The FM will kill anyone who pays them a fee to do so and the IB will loan money to anyone as long as they make their payments. When they default, the IB snuffs them and moves on to the next guy.

If the FM and the IB are connected, I don't think it's much more than the IB hiring the FM to assassinate people who have taken out large loans they've defaulted on and refuse to pay.

As for the Hardhome/Doom of Valyria "superweapon" I don't buy it at all. It's way too James Bond. I think they were wiped out by natural volcanoes.

[Dire Rabbit]

I agree with the above. The doom and the hardhome calamity seem more along the lines of non related natural catastrophes (perhaps exacerbated by Valyrian over mining of an unstable volcanic mountain chain).

So far as braavos goes, the IB, FM and Sealord may all well find themselves pursuing a mutual policy as regards westerosi politics at some point, but I think the overarching conspiracy theories getting around are a little OTT.