25 replies to this topic

[Child of Three]

This is one of Maester Aemon's first lines, but I never really understood it. Aemon is one of the kindest people in the series, and I could never imagine anyone telling him he's anything but kind. I have been curious as to the meaning of this statement ever since I first read it, because it is just so different from every other instance of his character.

This was in response to Tyrion's statement "I have been called many things, but big is seldom one of them." The only way I can find reason in what Aemon said was that he was being sarcastic, saying that him not being kind is as likely as Tyrion not being big, since both are plainly true (Tyrion's in the symbolical case). But this also seems out of character, as he's never really made any jokes in the series.

Does anyone have any thoughts as to the meaning of these words? Or is it just an character change of Maester Aemon that GRRM decided half way through A Game of Thrones?

EDIT: Grammer

Edited by Child of Three, 07 February 2013 - 11:48 PM.

[WiDMNDBAMMD]

Aemon is blind so it's not easy for him to see.

[Dolorous Nedd]

We usually only see Aemon through either Sam or Jon.  It is highly possible he isn't as kind to others as he is to them.  Aemon has a sense that Jon is special and Sam is Jon's friend.

[J Sturge]

Dolorous Nedd, on 07 February 2013 - 11:43 PM, said:

We usually only see Aemon through either Sam or Jon.  It is highly possible he isn't as kind to others as he is to them.  Aemon has a sense that Jon is special and Sam is Jon's friend.

Yeah I think this is about right. Aemon though abiding by his vows, may considers his staying at the wall during his families hardships unkind. Though why others would could consider this unkind I can't quite figure out.

But the Jon thing is right, he and Sam by proxy do seem to receive special(nicer?) treatment from Aemon. Maybe as Jon is supposedly the messiah of the series Aemon is aware of this and treats Jon in a way that matches it because of his ultimate role.

[nekrohsis]

It might be innocuous. Aemon's a nice guy, but the Wall isn't a very nice place. I can't imagine any other crow calling this old man 'kind'. 'Fussbudget', 'codger', and 'stick-up-his-unmentionables', yes, but not 'kind'. He can be a little strict: this whole 'kill the boy' business is a good example. I don't think it should be taken to mean he's not a good man.

[Castellan]

Is this after he says a giant come among us?

[Melonica Stormborn]

The Aemon we see from the start of the series is old and frail. We really don't know what kind of person he was in his prime. Also, as a maester he's been marginalized by the Citadel, he was seen as a threat so it's possible no one really knew him in a personal sense to see if he is kind or not.

Also, Jon and Sam are high born and well educated. Bastard though he was, we know that Jon is a high profile recruit and Aemon and the Old Bear saw a lot of potential in him. There was also an intellectual bond with Sam. It's not surprising that they were treated well by others with similarly noble descent. Really, only the low born brothers act contemptibly towards Jon at first (although it's his arrogance that led to that).

Edited by Melonica Stormborn, 08 February 2013 - 02:11 AM.

[Yukle]

Child of Three, on 07 February 2013 - 11:36 PM, said:

This is one of Maester Aemon's first lines, but I never really understood it. Aemon is one of the kindest people in the series, and I could never imagine anyone telling him he's anything but kind.

By the time the series begins, he is 100 years old.

Throughout his life, he has been the brother, uncle and grand-uncle and great grand-uncle of a family ruined by constant warfare. He would have been somewhat ridiculed for taking an oath to join the Maester's given his standing in direct line for the royal family.

And when he opted not to take the crown, he'd have been laughed at as a fool. He has probably spent his life being looked down upon and was touched to finally receive a compliment from someone outside the Night's Watch. Even within the order, he was probably taken for granted.

[Black Wolf Smith]

Melonica Stormborn, on 08 February 2013 - 01:20 AM, said:

The Aemon we see from the start of the series is old and frail. We really don't know what kind of person he was in his prime. Also, as a maester he's been marginalized by the Citadel, he was seen as a threat so it's possible no one really knew him in a personal sense to see if he is kind or not.

Also, Jon and Sam are high born and well educated. Bastard, though he was, we know that Jon is a high profile recruit and Aemon and the Old Bear saw a lot of potential in him. There is also an intellectual bond with Sam. It's not surprising that they were treated well by others with similarly noble descent. Really, only the low born brothers act contemptibly towards Jon at first (although it's his arrogance that led to that).

I pretty much agree with this, he was old, and he had not 1 but 2 high born(raised) young men, unlike most of the other men of the NW. Chett didn't seem to think that Aemon was nice, easy because he was old, and went to sleep early, but not nice.

[Aerys_The_Mad_King]

He said that because Tyrion is a Lannister. If there is a family he won't be kind to, those are the Lannisters, he kind of hates them for what they did to his kin. I read this line as "dont't expect me to be kind to you, I'm not your friend, you Lannister piece of Imp"

[Brienne Of Bombay]

I think what he meant was he has been called names all his life for not being a good warrior, becoming a maester, etc. and very few people have spoken good things about him.

[Lion of Judah]

Aemon seems nice and he is wise, but he is a dragon. He could probably go from 1 to 100 faster than you think.

[Lummel]

Child of Three, on 07 February 2013 - 11:36 PM, said:

This is one of Maester Aemon's first lines, but I never really understood it. Aemon is one of the kindest people in the series, and I could never imagine anyone telling him he's anything but kind. I have been curious as to the meaning of this statement ever since I first read it, because it is just so different from every other instance of his character.

This was in response to Tyrion's statement "I have been called many things, but big is seldom one of them." The only way I can find reason in what Aemon said was that he was being sarcastic, saying that him not being kind is as likely as Tyrion not being big, since both are plainly true (Tyrion's in the symbolical case). But this also seems out of character, as he's never really made any jokes in the series.

Does anyone have any thoughts as to the meaning of these words? Or is it just an character change of Maester Aemon that GRRM decided half way through A Game of Thrones?

EDIT: Grammer

There is nothing kind about what Aemon says either to tyrion or later in AGOT to Jon.  Wise and insightful - yes, but not kind.

Consider what Aemon said along with what Moquorro tells Tyrion that he sees dragons, young and old and in the midst of them Tyrion snarling.  Aemon sees as well as Moquorro that Tyrion has a large role to play in the events of ASOIAF as they unfold.  There is nothing kind in that vision.  Being a giant come amongst us is not a good thing in ASOIAF where giants are destructive and dangerous.

[Thendel]

Lummel, on 08 February 2013 - 03:43 AM, said:

There is nothing kind about what Aemon says either to tyrion or later in AGOT to Jon.  Wise and insightful - yes, but not kind.

Consider what Aemon said along with what Moquorro tells Tyrion that he sees dragons, young and old and in the midst of them Tyrion snarling.  Aemon sees as well as Moquorro that Tyrion has a large role to play in the events of ASOIAF as they unfold.  There is nothing kind in that vision.  Being a giant come amongst us is not a good thing in ASOIAF where giants are destructive and dangerous.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Aemon's interactions with Jon have the shape of a wise old man giving a brash young man some much needed perspective, e.g. helping him come to terms with his role in the Watch. If helping without getting something in return is not being kind, I don't know what kindness is. Also, he "saves" Sam from the clutches of Alliser Thorne at Jon's request, which is pretty kind, considering the environment they're in enables someone like Thorne.

As for Aemon being ridiculed and belittled all his life: I heartily disagree. He had a good relationship with his brother Aegon, and considering his love of books, he must have been right at home in Oldtown. He was offered the crown in secret, meaning only a few was ever aware of the choice he made. Later on, he would correspond with his great-grandnephew, the beloved Rhaegar, about serious topics, prophecies being among them. When the officers are hosting Tyrion, everyone grow silent the moment Aemon begins to speak. Considering the regular pieces of asshats most of those guys are, I'd say that's a huge sign of respect for a maester a hundred years old. In private, Jeor wishes Aemon several more years of life, seeing as how invaluable he is to the Watch.

OT: It's possible that Aemon was indeed being sarcastic: Tyrion is clearly one of the most intelligent men in the realm, and coupled with being a descendant of a powerful and influential house, Tyrion's potential for greatness is only inhibited by himself having an inferiority complex due to his dwarfism. Put in that light, one could take Aemon's words to be a way of telling Tyrion to man up and stand up for himself, because he's telling him the truth, not merely flattering him.

Edited by Thendel, 08 February 2013 - 09:19 AM.

[Jslay427]

A lot more interesting a topic then I thought it would be. some really good replies. I agree with the reply that his choice to join the NW and become a maester caused others to call him things, kind not being one of them.

[Great White Walker]

Maybe it was just a pun or this

Jslay427, on 08 February 2013 - 11:08 AM, said:

A lot more interesting a topic then I thought it would be. some really good replies. I agree with the reply that his choice to join the NW and become a maester caused others to call him things, kind not being one of them.

[lojzelote]

Jslay427, on 08 February 2013 - 11:08 AM, said:

A lot more interesting a topic then I thought it would be. some really good replies. I agree with the reply that his choice to join the NW and become a maester caused others to call him things, kind not being one of them.

I don't see why his chosen career path would stop others from calling him kind. I could understand how some ignorant pig could call him craven, but why would him becoming a maester make people think he's not nice, of all things?

[Mother of Mini Dragons]

My read on it was that his statement had more to do with what he was trying to say to or about Tyrion less than the statement having any relevance to his character traits. He's implying something important about Tyrion and Tyrion brushes it off by essentially saying that Aemon is just being kind. But Aemon is saying he's not trying to be kind. So, if he's not being kind - what he is saying? IMO, he's stating a fact as he sees or knows it.

[mormont]

Mother of Mini Dragons, on 08 February 2013 - 11:51 AM, said:

My read on it was that his statement had more to do with what he was trying to say to or about Tyrion less than the statement having any relevance to his character traits. He's implying something important about Tyrion and Tyrion brushes it off by essentially saying that Aemon is just being kind. But Aemon is saying he's not trying to be kind. So, if he's not being kind - what he is saying? IMO, he's stating a fact as he sees or knows it.

Spot on. I'd go further: I've always read that line as being a suggestion that in calling Tyrion a large man, Aemon is not only not 'just being kind' but is actually being somewhat less than kind. It's not flattery, or a compliment. I think Aemon's saying that Tyrion has potential greatness, but that's a hard path, not a good thing.

One might even read it as Aemon suggesting that Tyrion has the potential to be a great man, but not necessarily in a good sense. That might be a stretch too far, though.

[Jslay427]

lojzelote, on 08 February 2013 - 11:37 AM, said:

I don't see why his chosen career path would stop others from calling him kind. I could understand how some ignorant pig could call him craven, but why would him becoming a maester make people think he's not nice, of all things?

They would call him things, regardless of it he is nice or not. Like most people who are bullied are prolly nice people themselves, doesn't stop them from getting called other things.