The Sopranos (Spoilers)

[Ran]

The big problem I always had with the analysis, and why I believed Tony did not die in that diner, is that when the camera is on Tony, we the audience are looking at him... and when it turns around to the door, we are seeing what he was seeing when his attention turned to the door. But for the cut to black to really represent the moment of his death, we should have had a split second flash of Meadow and _then_ it goes to black.

That it went to black immediately just meant that we, the viewers, had come to the end of the story.

[Bridgeburners]

I disagree with David Chase.

[Winterfell is Burning]

I disagree with David Chase.

Yeah, what does he know about The Sopranos anyway?

[NestorMakhnosLovechild]

David Chase's publicist has already issued a statement saying that Chase's comments were "misconstrued" and that he didn't say that Tony Soprano was not dead.

Of course, in the wider context of the show, I agree that it simply doesn't matter whether Tony lived or died.

That being said, I think the narrative clues over the course of the season and the way the final scene was shot and edited strongly suggests that Tony was killed in the diner and that would still be the case even if David Chase said otherwise.

[Nictarion]

^Ffs. Well at least we know he's not a lumberjack.

[Ran]

Vox on the publicist statement. VanDerWerff parsed this right. I don't know, Chase can't really have it both ways. He can't tell the journalist that he wants only factual rather than interpretive statements reported, and then complain that the lack of nuance in his direct statement means that it's not true.

I think the imagery of death throughout the season is certainly explained by both the amount of deaths in the season -- particularly the death of Bobby Baccalieri (whose death did not, in fact, involve silence -- one of the other points people claim in the argument for Tony's death) -- and the end of the series itself is a kind of death. Hence "A Dream Within a Dream" being cited by Chase in discussing the cut to black. It's not there to represent Tony's death -- it's there to represent the death of the "dream" that was The Sopranos.

[Relic]

The guy who wrote this essay is going to be pissed. I tend to agree with what masterofsopranos wrote in his essay. They way that scene was set up and edited strongly implies that Tony was killed. The ending always felt a little unsatisfying to me although I have come to appreciate it in time. If Chase is not trolling us in that interview then I am extremely disappointed with the ending. The cut-to-black no longer makes any sense. Not to me at least.

The ending is purposefully ambiguous but i don't think it's Chase "trolling". Tony gets shot seconds, minutes, hours, days, weeks, months, years later. The time frame does not matter much. The subtle sense of paranoia is that scene mirrors Tony's own perception of reality, now and until his life does actually ends. We get no real resolution, and we are not meant to. All that happens is that our widow into Tony's life ends.

Some people have argued that it's the audience that Chase "wacks" at the end. I pretty much agree with that.

[Ran]

The Masters of Soprano guy is all over Sepinwall's posts, attacking the writer's character and doing all he can to try and get people to ignore the fact that Chase said a thing and that his publicist can't really unsay it for him.

Matt Zoller Seitz is the one who most notably put forward the "audience is whacked" idea, I believe, and he's written about the Vox report and the publicist's response over at Vulture, more or less echoing VanDerWerff that it's a kind of non-denial denial... but at the same time questioning whether it matters. As you say, it could well be that Chase meant that the cut to black does not mean to indicate death, that Tony is alive so far as the show is concerned the moment it goes black... but who knows what happens after? Maybe he is killed a split second after the show ends.

But maybe this is what we can take out of it for certain: cut to black does not have anything to do with the death of Tony Soprano.

[JonArryn]

Well, I think there are way too many clues in those last five minutes when someone points them out that it's hard to deny that he does die. Everything in those five minutes should led us to believe Tony is whacked, and the masterofsopranos guy makes a solid case.

The cut to black has everything to do with Tony dying. That conversation with Bobby earlier the season is like hes describing it all. It's what Ray Liotta says in Goodfellas. And it all fits in very much with Tony getting whacked.

And the cut to black is what... 30 seconds of black silence? From Tony's POV. The credits doesnt begin until 30 seconds after the cut. That is one of the biggest reasons to believe he died. Otherwise the credits should have just started asap after.

I think Chase is tired of all the discussions and is just trolling. Its very nonchalant and annoying for me as a viewer and fan. I think the show and the last five minutes should speak for themseleves and the evidence is overwhelming for Tony getting whacked then and there in that scene.

[NestorMakhnosLovechild]

Well, I think there are way too many clues in those last five minutes when someone points them out that it's hard to deny that he does die. Everything in those five minutes should led us to believe Tony is whacked, and the masterofsopranos guy makes a solid case.

The cut to black has everything to do with Tony dying. That conversation with Bobby earlier the season is like hes describing it all. It's what Ray Liotta says in Goodfellas. And it all fits in very much with Tony getting whacked.

And the cut to black is what... 30 seconds of black silence? From Tony's POV. The credits doesnt begin until 30 seconds after the cut. That is one of the biggest reasons to believe he died. Otherwise the credits should have just started asap after.

I think Chase is tired of all the discussions and is just trolling. Its very nonchalant and annoying for me as a viewer and fan. I think the show and the last five minutes should speak for themseleves and the evidence is overwhelming for Tony getting whacked then and there in that scene.

I agree that "authorial intent" is, in this case, pretty irrelevant. We have the completed work to review, and it stands on its own as a text that can be dissected and analyzed. I also agree that the way the scene is set up, shot and edited strongly suggests that Tony was killed at the diner. Chase could have intended the final scene to be a big red herring, and he could have extended the scene with a shot of the whole family sitting in the booth and and the Members Only Guy sitting back at the counter drinking coffee and there would have been no "ambiguity" about what happened. But that's not what he did and the way that he ended it suggests the outcome is Tony's death.

What I don't get is why it's so annoying. Who cares, after the fact, what Chase says?

Take the infamous Jamie raping Cersei scene from this last season of Game of Thrones. Jamie's actor and the episode director both came out and said that they felt the scene ended with Cersei consenting to Jamie's sexual advances. A clear reading of the scene itself makes it pretty clear that just the opposite is the case. (A few years ago this happened on Mad Men too, with Pete raping his neighbor's au pair. Vincent Kartheiser came out after the fact and said that the script made it clear that she consents to his advances as well, but the actress played it wrong. Well, the scene we got is the scene we got, and Pete's a rapist regardless of authorial intent).

Who knows that Chase actually intended, or believed? Hell, neither the Vox interview, nor the Chase publicist response, nor the Vox response to the publicist response - actually makes clear how the question was phrased that Chase responded to, which is a pretty significant omission (the original Vox article being pretty poorly written to begin with). But, in a larger sense, it really doesn't matter, because Chase's work on the show is done, and what he created has a life of its own.

[RumHam]

I recall some long and furious arguments about this topic, and this should settle it.

I guess you were being a little optimistic there.

I always thought he died, and that it was a great ending. Now I'm not really sure how I feel about it. But it's a good excuse to watch that last season again with that article in mind.

[Consigliere]

Well, I think there are way too many clues in those last five minutes when someone points them out that it's hard to deny that he does die. Everything in those five minutes should led us to believe Tony is whacked, and the masterofsopranos guy makes a solid case.

The cut to black has everything to do with Tony dying. That conversation with Bobby earlier the season is like hes describing it all. It's what Ray Liotta says in Goodfellas. And it all fits in very much with Tony getting whacked.

And the cut to black is what... 30 seconds of black silence? From Tony's POV. The credits doesnt begin until 30 seconds after the cut. That is one of the biggest reasons to believe he died. Otherwise the credits should have just started asap after.

I think Chase is tired of all the discussions and is just trolling. Its very nonchalant and annoying for me as a viewer and fan. I think the show and the last five minutes should speak for themseleves and the evidence is overwhelming for Tony getting whacked then and there in that scene.

I agree with everything in your post. They way the scene was set up points to Tony being killed. The bell, camera switches to Tony's face and then camera switches to his POV and we see through his eyes who comes through the door. This happened 5 or 6 times (can't quite remember). The last sequence is the bell, camera on Tony's face and the next shot should be the audience seeing who walks in through Tony's POV. Instead we get 30 seconds of black. If that does not mean Tony was killed then the ending no longer makes any sense.

[Ran]

Yes, but Tony looked up -- he saw the person. We should see the person too, if even for a split second.

More importantly, the "A Dream within a Dream" comment from Chase is extremely telling. The cut to black is not death. The cut to black is the end of the dream that was The Sopranos. In fact, I believe Chase had wanted _three minutes_ of black but HBO made him take it down to whatever length it ended up being. That's well above and beyond what makes sense for "Tony's dead", especially given Chase's often-stated annoyance with the fixation people had with whether he would "get whacked" at some point. Why would Chase make such an outsized gesture for a death which was never the point and which he was at best ambivalent about because of the audience?

The cut to black is because the "dream" is done. It has nothing to do with Tony's life or death.

[Nictarion]

Yes, but Tony looked up -- he saw the person. We should see the person too, if even for a split second.

More importantly, the "A Dream within a Dream" comment from Chase is extremely telling. The cut to black is not death. The cut to black is the end of the dream that was The Sopranos. In fact, I believe Chase had wanted _three minutes_ of black but HBO made him take it down to whatever length it ended up being. That's well above and beyond what makes sense for "Tony's dead", especially given Chase's often-stated annoyance with the fixation people had with whether he would "get whacked" at some point. Why would Chase make such an outsized gesture for a death which was never the point and which he was at best ambivalent about because of the audience?

The cut to black is because the "dream" is done. It has nothing to do with Tony's life or death.

I think you have the right of it. I remember hearing the same thing about the length Chase wanted.

[Relic]

Yes, but Tony looked up -- he saw the person. We should see the person too, if even for a split second.

More importantly, the "A Dream within a Dream" comment from Chase is extremely telling. The cut to black is not death. The cut to black is the end of the dream that was The Sopranos. In fact, I believe Chase had wanted _three minutes_ of black but HBO made him take it down to whatever length it ended up being. That's well above and beyond what makes sense for "Tony's dead", especially given Chase's often-stated annoyance with the fixation people had with whether he would "get whacked" at some point. Why would Chase make such an outsized gesture for a death which was never the point and which he was at best ambivalent about because of the audience?

The cut to black is because the "dream" is done. It has nothing to do with Tony's life or death.

Fully agree. People will point to the final 3 minutes or so and say that all signs indicate Tony's coming death. The similarity between characters in Tony's past and to the extras walking into the dinner, the bell, the Members Only jacket who looked like Tony's father, Meadow's tense adventures with parallel parking and crossing the street, and finally the fade to black. Well, every single thing about the scene is totally mundane. In fact that the more I order it now the more I think that the sense of upcoming doom is both a play on the audience's expectation of climax (boom head shot blood everywhere, screaming family), and also serves as a brilliant demonstration of Tony's depressive/paranoid/narcissistic state.

[Relic]

Also, technically the cut to black doesn't really represent death, as death most likely results in total absence of being. Nothing exists, not black, or eternal dark, or anything. Awareness is fully wiped away.

[NestorMakhnosLovechild]

Yes, but Tony looked up -- he saw the person. We should see the person too, if even for a split second.

This theory is based entirely on your assumption about the timing of the jump into Tony's perspective. The scene is not shot in "real time."

[NestorMakhnosLovechild]

Fully agree. People will point to the final 3 minutes or so and say that all signs indicate Tony's coming death. The similarity between characters in Tony's past and to the extras walking into the dinner, the bell, the Members Only jacket who looked like Tony's father, Meadow's tense adventures with parallel parking and crossing the street, and finally the fade to black. Well, every single thing about the scene is totally mundane. In fact that the more I order it now the more I think that the sense of upcoming doom is both a play on the audience's expectation of climax (boom head shot blood everywhere, screaming family), and also serves as a brilliant demonstration of Tony's depressive/paranoid/narcissistic state.

I really don't get the reading of the scene as showing Tony being paranoid. He's really not paranoid at all. In fact, I think as the "Master of Sopranos" points out quite definitively in his deconstruction of the scene, Tony is too relaxed and paying too little attention to his surroundings. He doesn't pay any attention to the man in the Members Only jacket once he sees AJ and completely misses the Members Only jacket guy sizing him up.

[NestorMakhnosLovechild]

Also, technically the cut to black doesn't really represent death, as death most likely results in total absence of being. Nothing exists, not black, or eternal dark, or anything. Awareness is fully wiped away.

I'm not sure you quite know what "represents" means.

A skeleton in a black hood often represents death, even though that's obviously not what death is.

As far as "blackness" goes - it's a well-worn and frequently used visual trope for losing consciousness.

[RumHam]

I'm not sure you quite know what "represents" means.

A skeleton in a black hood often represents death, even though that's obviously not what death is.

As far as "blackness" goes - it's a well-worn and frequently used visual trope for losing consciousness.

There's actually an exchange in season three or four where Meadow is helping A.J. with his english homework and A..J. says "I thought black was death." and his sister says "white too"