Heresy 43

[Black Crow]

Welcome to Heresy 43, this week’s edition of what appears to have simultaneously become the most dynamic thread on the Westeros forums, and something of an institution as well, currently complete with its own re-read franchise run by Nanother on the main board http://asoiaf.wester...eretic-re-read/

So what’s Heresy all about and why is it so successful?

The short answer is that it offers an alternative interpretation of the Song of Ice and Fire.

Heresy essentially is all about challenging the orthodoxy that the Others are evil incarnate; that the Children of the Forest will give Bran the knowledge of how to defeat the Others and that Jon is Azor Ahai, and will save Westeros astride one of Dany’s amazing dragons before taking his rightful place alongside her on the Iron Throne as Jon Targaryen First of his Name. We also have a very strong suspicion that far from being something built by men as a bulwark against the Others, the Wall is itself the cause of the imbalance in the seasons. As Feather Crystal recently noted in a 2006 interview GRRM said, albeit in relation to their swords; “The Others can do things with ice that we can't imagine and make substances of it.” Including perhaps a wall of ice… Thus far from being a disaster there is a feeling that its fall will be necessary to achieve a resolution of the conflict between Ice and Fire.

In general, whilst not immune from crackpottery and outbreaks of light-heartedness, the Heresies have a sound basis in the text, especially as the story has moved on from those easy assumptions in the beginning to become much more complex, darker and a lot less certain – especially as far as the Starks are concerned.

After all, as GRRM himself has stated:

…it was always my intention: to play with the reader’s expectations. Before I was a writer I was a voracious reader and I am still, and I have read many, many books with very predictable plots. As a reader, what I seek is a book that delights and surprises me. I want to not know what is gonna happen. For me, that’s the essence of storytelling and for this reason I want my readers to turn the pages with increasing fever: to know what happens next. There are a lot of expectations, mainly in the fantasy genre, which you have the hero and he is the chosen one, and he is always protected by his destiny. I didn’t want it for my books.

Instead we think it far more important that if R+L really does =J, it is more important that he is the son of Lyanna Stark rather than the lost heir to the Iron Throne, and far from being Azor Ahai he and his magical white direwolf may be on the other side.

As to that Other side, we look closely at who or what the Others really are, noting both GRRM’s reference to them being like the Sidhe made of ice and to the way they behave not as an invading army but like the Wild Hunt of legend. Inevitably then this means drawing not just on the books themselves but on the real world mythologies, chiefly Celtic but Norse as well, which underpin Martin’s version of the Faerie realms, leading us through the Arthurian Legends, the Mabinogion, the Tain bo Culaidh and the Norse Eddas amongst others to discover Bran the Blessed, Tam Lin, Cu Chulainn and above all the Morrigan – the Crow Goddess, associated with death and with three human aspects as maiden, mother and crone.

It was the Crone who let the first raven into the world and we note the way in which crows (same difference) dominate the whole story, which is why some of us have our suspicions about their true significance, because after all, according to the Ironborn they belong not to the Children but to the Storm God – and oddly enough as it happens the Goddess of the Wind is another attribute of the Morrigan. The crows in short, including Mormont’s (and now Jon’s) raven, appear to be players in their own right rather than convenient vessels for warging.

Conversely its hard to avoid the fact that the Children (who so far have conspicuously said nothing to Bran about the Others) are not just of the Forest, but of the Darkness as well, that darkness feared and hated by Melisandre and the followers of the Lord of Light. Certainly whatever the real motives of the Children, it can cheerfully be assumed that they are no friends of the Red lot.

As heretics we neither promote nor defend a particular viewpoint, in fact we argue quite a lot, but we do reckon that the Starks’ role in all of this is a lot darker and more ambiguous than once it seemed. They are after all the Kings of Winter.

If you’re already actively involved in the Heresy business it needs no further introduction. If you’re new, or simply intimidated by the sheer scale of it all, not to mention the astonishing speed with which it moves, and wonder what we’re talking about and why we’ve come to these peculiar ideas, just ask. We’re friendly and we don’t mind going over old ground again, especially with a fresh pair of eyes.

All that we ask is that the debate be conducted by reference to the text, with respect for the ideas of others, and above all great good humour.

[The Real Summer Islander]

As I don't keep up on the heresy threads much Ty for the info.

[The Real Summer Islander]

As for the osric stark/nights king stuff, didn't he/nights king, see someone with pale skin that made him become the nights king?

[evita mgfs]

Hello, Heresy Scholars. I am intruding on your good graces because I have a question to pose, and I apologize if this is a "stupid" question that has already been addressed in your thread.

Here goes: in Bran's fifth POV in AGoT, Robb leaves him alone to check out the kill that the direwolves have made, and truthfully, I do not think Robb is gone any longer than fifteen minutes. When he returns, Robb has an elk slung across his gelding; obviously the direwolves took down the elk. Here are Martin’s words:

"He was mounted, the bloody carcass of an elk slung across the back of his horse, his sword in a gloved hand."

Robb is fifteen, and nowhere has Martin indicated that Robb has the superhuman strength of a Jean Valjean. How does Robb hoist a dead body of a rather large animal on the back of his gelding with no assistance? Martin does not indicate that the elk is a calf, and I am assuming it has a rack that indicates it is an elk as opposed to a deer, stag, or buck. [We have elk in central PA in several locations, even near our hunting camp.] Even yearlings are a good size – not easily lifted up by one person to sling over the haunches of a horse.

The Wiki says the following regarding size and weight of an average cow and bull: “Elk cows average 225 to 241 kg (500 to 530 lb), stand 1.3 m (4.3 ft) at the shoulder, and are 2.1 m (6.9 ft) from nose to tail. Bulls are some 40% larger than cows at maturity, weighing an average of 320 to 331 kg (710 to 730 lb), standing 1.5 m (4.9 ft) at the shoulder and averaging 2.45 m (8.0 ft) in length.^{[19][20] . . .} The smallest bodied race is the Tule elk (C. c. nannodes), which weighs from 170 to 250 kg (370 to 550 lb) in both sexes.”^{[22] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elk}

So, if this is significant, I am wondering if the old gods, maybe through Grey Wind’s connection with Robb, and GW’s and Robb’s mental telepathy, are offering the Stark heir a helping hand? If so, I thought this might be “heretic” with its association to the possible intervention by the old gods?

Not only would lifting a dead elk be difficult, but horses do not easily accept the dead body of an animal on their backs unless it is quartered and packaged, or so my husband the great hunter tells me. He says the horse may be well trained, but that horses as a rule can give a rider some difficulty, like "not" standing still while a dead animal is positioned so that it will not slide off? However, I told my husband that these were very obedient horses that do not shy or kick, the way the horses on the farm did! They also have never taken their riders under a low hanging branch to dismount them, as a horse once did to me! [i guess we always had horses more like Sandor’s Driftwood!]

I also do not think Robb had time to gut and bleed out the elk, unless the direwolves only left "part" of an elk, and ate the rest????

I did present my finding as a question in the thread for short questions, and the responses I received were interesting: the general consensus seemed to be "sloppy writing" - not my words. Since I must be convinced that my idol Martin would make a mistake, I had to come to the experts for a possible response - and you fine scholars are my interpretation of "experts".

[nanother]

Out of curiosity, where does the Morrigan's association with Maiden/Mother/Crone come from? I don't know anything beyound wikipedia, but her three aspects don't seem to fit that particular triad very well. There's however a triple goddess of unclear origin with those 3 aspects that seems to be popular in recent days, but apparently it's strongly suspected to be a modern creation... So, is there a reliable source out there that links the two?

[Black Crow]

@Evita : Your husband is correct. Horses generally take great exception to having bloody carcases slung across their backs. The garrons (yes garrons) still used to bring deer off the hills where I come from need to be specially trained and accustomed to blood and above all the smell of blood.

On the whole though I'd be inclined to look for a mundane answer rather than anything clever. There may well have been ghillies accompanying the party who don't get mentioned because they're otherwise not important - a deplorable attitude, but quite realistic. Just to give a real world example, most Jacobite historians are familiar with a gentleman named John Daniel who left a very engaging and often quite detailed "Progress" of his adventures in the rising of 1745. Only at the very end however does he mention that throughout it all he had been accompanied by a faithful servant and even then it is only to complain that he was robbed while carrying Daniel's coat!

[Black Crow]

Out of curiosity, where does the Morrigan's association with Maiden/Mother/Crone come from? I don't know anything beyound wikipedia, but her three aspects don't seem to fit that particular triad very well. There's however a triple goddess of unclear origin with those 3 aspects that seems to be popular in recent days, but apparently it's strongly suspected to be a modern creation... So, is there a reliable source out there that links the two?

Just for reference here's the main wikipedia entry, which I assume you're familiar with: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Morr%C3%ADgan

The triple (human) aspects come in two versions; there's the single Morrigan who is associated with Cu Chulainn and appears to him amongst other things first as a maiden and later as a crone. I'm not sure about the mother bit though. The other version casts them as three sisters, of whom Macha is definitely a mother - and interestingly enough is in one legend killed by Balor of the Evil Eye.

The overriding connection, and the significance of GRRM's House Morrigen clue, is the frequency with which the Morrigan takes the form of a Crow or Raven.

[evita mgfs]

@Evita : Your husband is correct. Horses generally take great exception to having bloody carcases slung across their backs. The garrons (yes garrons) still used to bring deer off the hills where I come from need to be specially trained and accustomed to blood and above all the smell of blood.

On the whole though I'd be inclined to look for a mundane answer rather than anything clever. There may well have been ghillies accompanying the party who don't get mentioned because they're otherwise not important - a deplorable attitude, but quite realistic. Just to give a real world example, most Jacobite historians are familiar with a gentleman named John Daniel who left a very engaging and often quite detailed "Progress" of his adventures in the rising of 1745. Only at the very end however does he mention that throughout it all he had been accompanied by a faithful servant and even then it is only to complain that he was robbed while carrying Daniel's coat!

:bowdown: BLACK CROW: THANKS! GREAT ANALOGY!

It reminds me of the "reality" based shows like Survivor - are we as viewers supposed to forget that there is a camera crew present at all times while the contestants face life or death conflicts? How "realistic" can a reality show be with a camera crew and all their minions, plus the equipment!??

Your response makes good sense, and I thank you for clearing it up for me!

[Black Crow]

As for the osric stark/nights king stuff, didn't he/nights king, see someone with pale skin that made him become the nights king?

Old Nan hints that he was a Brandon Stark, but yes, according to the legend he became the Nights King after taking up with what sounds like a pricess of the Sidhe: "Night’s King was only a man by light of day, Old Nan would always say, but the night was his to rule."

[Tyryan Lannister]

Hello, Heresy Scholars.

Hi! (waves hand)

I am intruding on your good graces because I have a question to pose, and I apologize if this is a "stupid" question that has already been addressed in your thread.

As far as we're concerned, you will never be seen as an intruder and none of your questions are stupid--we always love your occasional insights

Here goes: in Bran's fifth POV in AGoT, Robb leaves him alone to check out the kill that the direwolves have made, and truthfully, I do not think Robb is gone any longer than fifteen minutes. When he returns, Robb has an elk slung across his gelding; obviously the direwolves took down the elk. Here are Martin’s words:

"He was mounted, the bloody carcass of an elk slung across the back of his horse, his sword in a gloved hand."

Well, using the Razor of Occam, I can think of two possibilities

1) It is, as you've said some to have pointed out, just some sloppy writing that Martin didn't put much thought into

OR

2) Theon was on that hunt as well (IIRC--this is the one where Bran gets attacked by Osha et al, right?)--him and Robb together might have been able to lift the carcass up. Also, regardless of them being close to Winterfell and still in the Wolfswood and such, I highly doubt that The Stark would leave the confines of the castle/town without some form of guard (beyond Theon)--and I think that Luwin would have insisted on it as well.

[Little Wing]

Old Nan hints that he was a Brandon Stark, but yes, according to the legend he became the Nights King after taking up with what sounds like a pricess of the Sidhe: "Night’s King was only a man by light of day, Old Nan would always say, but the night was his to rule."

Is it said that the Others only come out by night or am I misremembering?

[Black Crow]

Yes and no, they don't like sunlight, which is why they appear at night, or when its snowing (as in heavy cloud cover) and generally lurk in the woods. Presumably being of ice they might melt in sunshire - as the Ice Dragon did.

[Little Wing]

Ah, so, the Night's King was a daywalker :D reminds me of all the faerie lore that's mentioned about the Sidhe needing humans (or at least some hybrids) to do their biding where or when they cannot...

Anyway, stating the obvious here a bit, but just noticed that Jon's direwolf has the white-red combo, as Bran's mentor, Bloodraven does, and Arya's mentor of sorts, Jaqen with his white-red hair...

Are Sansa and Rickon left out because their way won't be the magic/Old Gods way?

[alienarea]

For a sci-fi twist, have we considered the White Walkers are some kind of androids?

[nanother]

Just for reference here's the main wikipedia entry, which I assume you're familiar with: http://en.wikipedia....i/The_Morrígan

The triple (human) aspects come in two versions; there's the single Morrigan who is associated with Cu Chulainn and appears to him amongst other things first as a maiden and later as a crone. I'm not sure about the mother bit though. The other version casts them as three sisters, of whom Macha is definitely a mother - and interestingly enough is in one legend killed by Balor of the Evil Eye.

The overriding connection, and the significance of GRRM's House Morrigen clue, is the frequency with which the Morrigan takes the form of a Crow or Raven.

Thanks for explaining! Yeah, I never doubted the crow/raven connection, I was just confused about the Maiden/Mother/Crone aspects. Sounds like it's not a trivial fit, but nothing outlandishly contrived either.

[Tyryan Lannister]

Ah, so, the Night's King was a daywalker :D reminds me of all the faerie lore that's mentioned about the Sidhe needing humans (or at least some hybrids) to do their biding where or when they cannot...

Anyway, stating the obvious here a bit, but just noticed that Jon's direwolf has the white-red combo, as Bran's mentor, Bloodraven does, and Arya's mentor of sorts, Jaqen with his white-red hair...

Are Sansa and Rickon left out because their way won't be the magic/Old Gods way?

Well, for Rickon we can't answer that until we learn what's going on on Skaagos

And for Sansa--she kind of IS the red-white combo (kiss by fire?)

Also along these lines--(f)Aegon???? JonCon is gray/white and red now...

[Tyryan Lannister]

For a sci-fi twist, have we considered the White Walkers are some kind of androids?

If they had red eyes they'd by like icy Cylons! :wideeyed:

[Little Wing]

And for Sansa--she kind of IS the red-white combo (kiss by fire?)

Also along these lines--(f)Aegon???? JonCon is gray/white and red now...

Hm. Dunno, can't see it really. Seems strained. :dunno:

[wolfmaid7]

I have a question and a suggestion. We have for the longest time been discussing the song part of this series which i believe will be the determinant when all is said and done. During my time on heresy we seem to have analysed in great detail the ice part of this equation and found out some amazing things.

Is it time for us to put our heads together and tackle the other part of the song "fire" to see if we can arise with some other amazing revelations about the other contributor to the song.

Just as we have some of the Stark kids,and the various other cold aspects what and who do we see as adding fire to the song.When i hear and feel the essence of that phrase it evokes harmony so how do we heretics evaluate the fire aspect.

[wolfmaid7]

I am starting a re-read of Dany and came upon something interesting:

"And perhaps the dragon did remember, but Dany could not. She had never seen this land her brother said was theirs, this realm beyond the narrow sea. These places he talked of, Casterly Rock and the Eyrie, Highgarden and the Vale of Arryn, Dorne and the Isle of Faces, they were just words to her" AGOT,chpt.3). Its interesting that of all these major houses Viserys doesn't mention Winterfell.