The Daylight War - Spoilers!

[Cause]

Just curious to hear peoples thoughts

In particular though what do you think of the end? Arlen obviously survives yet before he throws himself off the cliff he says that he and Jardir are drawing the mind demons and that they world is better off without them. That's partially true but I think the demons will still want to get rid of the combat wards and I think Arlen knows this. I'm of the opinion he planned the whole thing fake his and Jardir's death (Messiah Arlen might be able to heal him still) so they can surprise the demons. Take the fight secretly to the core while buying humanity time. Only reason to end the book at that point it seems to me. Anyone have any other opinions?

[Sci-2]

Can we get spoilers on what happens to Leesha?

[Cause]

She has some more sex with Jardir. Marrying him and sharing him with his wives is not acceptable but apparently having sex with him and sharing him with his wives is different. She leaves to return to the hollow to prepare them for the mind demon invasion that will surely come on the next waning of the moon. There she learns Alren know has Renna. This makes her sad. Fortunately her promiscuity is now awakened because she is pregnant with Jardir's baby (which she decided to keep a secret and thinks even to trick another man into believing it his). This leads her to have sex with Count Thomas of the wooden soldiers (he was made count of the hollow). Thus we can be happy since all the main characters found love. Arlen has Renna, Inerva really does madly love Jardir, Roger has nightly threesomes with his harem and Leesha; pregnant, scorned by one deliver and pursued by another she wont have at least gets to settle for count Thamos. Thamos gets to boost his prestige in the hollow by having Leesha (though it seems real love may bloom). It works but it is also very awkward and the 'trick another man into believing it's his baby' line of thinking is disgusting all the more coming from Leesha. There is a nice scene where her father puts her in her place for demanding respect from everyone and for bullying everyone yet giving them no respect in return.

This book might be Renna's, Inerva's and Leesha's book but for all that it is really all about Jardir and Arlen. For all her past accomplishmetns and potential in this book she truly seems to achieve very little this book. Though given the ending I think she and Innerva will have a huge role to play in the next book. Leesha I think has been badly handled. In trying to make a strong female lead Rothfus created a Mary Sue (Best herb gatherer, wards better than Arlen, can invent new wards, can learn a new language in a weak) in bringing her back down to earth he is destroying her. Given the obvious battle of the sexes theme expressed by the mere presence of the Krasians in the book this is disappointing. There is also a very humorous (to me at least) moment when Arlen hands her a book with the secrets of fire and worse and says for demon killing only. This when she has refused to give men the secrets of fire because their gender is reckless and in book two when she gave Darsy the secrets of fire, she had to reprimand her for thinking recklessly. If Rothfus was attempting to subvert the idea that the male gender is inherently more aggressive he did a good job at the expense of again making Leesha seem a fool. I dont over-analyze books (I don't think anyway) but this series is getting muddied in this regard. As an aside I wonder if the Krasian attitude towards women is in anyway part due to the fact that the demons are ruled by a queen. It also seems strongly hinted that the original Damajah was quite the bitch.

[AverageGuy]

As an aside I wonder if the Krasian attitude towards women is in anyway part due to the fact that the demons are ruled by a queen.

It think it's due to Kaji's declarations. Saying both the greatest purpose in life is to fight demons and that women were forbidden to fight them is going to affect your society. Although, the reason women were forbidden to fight originally isn't so clear. I might get it in the current day with the declining population, but that argument goes out the window since Jardir mentions Kaji had a much larger population to draw from.

As for the end, I'm not so sure why Arlen would bother saying the world was better off without both of them and then save himself, so I've got to imagine it's something he planned.

Overall, I enjoyed the book for what it was. Same issues as before.

[lrj]

I like how the final step to becoming a feared and respected Dama'ting is to get a giant fat dildo stuffed in your bunghole.

[Talleyrand]

A couple things rankled me in this - 1 Last book they had about five of Jardir's personal guard all trying to bring down Gared at the same time yet couldn't do it. But now all of a sudden he gets taken down easily by Abban?

2- The explanations for why the Karisian's are forbidden drink and pork came across a bit off to me. Makes Kaji sound a bit like a child

[Cause]

1- He is insanely strong. Without leverage and such no man can match him. Yet again and again we are told that anyone with a basic understanding of Krasian martial arts can better him if they use it. Wonda, Kavel, Enchido etc can all easilly take him. Admittedly it coming from Abban is a shock but I also think it was because Gared underestimated the cripple.

2-Agreed! The alcohol thing as discussed by both Abban and Jardir had me thinking they were both right. Alcohol can be enjoyed responsibly. Avoiding alcohol to learn and remind you of a valuable lesson (and avoid the possibility of irresponsibility entirely) is also sound. Still to outlaw pig because you once ate a poisoned one is absurd. The poison could have come by way of any meat and still may. It teaches no lesson, I think its a case that I think for both Jews and Muslims (the closet culture to the 'krasians') pork is forbidden because god said so. No reason is given and the word of god requires none to be obeyed. Rothfus suddenly tries to explain and justify Krasian culture, which is obviously based on a steorotype of muslim arabs, and cant quite do it.

[kkemikk]

... Rothfus suddenly tries to explain and justify Krasian culture, which is obviously based on a steorotype of muslim arabs, and cant quite do it.

Brett ... :cool4:

[Castel]

It think it's due to Kaji's declarations. Saying both the greatest purpose in life is to fight demons and that women were forbidden to fight them is going to affect your society. Although, the reason women were forbidden to fight originally isn't so clear. I might get it in the current day with the declining population, but that argument goes out the window since Jardir mentions Kaji had a much larger population to draw from.

Does it? It doesn't take a genius to realise that they can try to increase the population by making sure that women don't fight.

[Faint]

She has some more sex with Jardir. Marrying him and sharing him with his wives is not acceptable but apparently having sex with him and sharing him with his wives is different. She leaves to return to the hollow to prepare them for the mind demon invasion that will surely come on the next waning of the moon. There she learns Alren know has Renna. This makes her sad. Fortunately her promiscuity is now awakened because she is pregnant with Jardir's baby (which she decided to keep a secret and thinks even to trick another man into believing it his). This leads her to have sex with Count Thomas of the wooden soldiers (he was made count of the hollow). Thus we can be happy since all the main characters found love. Arlen has Renna, Inerva really does madly love Jardir, Roger has nightly threesomes with his harem and Leesha; pregnant, scorned by one deliver and pursued by another she wont have at least gets to settle for count Thamos. Thamos gets to boost his prestige in the hollow by having Leesha (though it seems real love may bloom). It works but it is also very awkward and the 'trick another man into believing it's his baby' line of thinking is disgusting all the more coming from Leesha. There is a nice scene where her father puts her in her place for demanding respect from everyone and for bullying everyone yet giving them no respect in return.

I've gone to great lengths to mock Leesha as a character, especially in this latest book, on the other thread dedicated to Brett on this forum, but having her arc summarized like that really makes me think I was being kind before. I think I unconsciously blocked my mind from fully absorbing how pathetic she became over the course of the narrative. And the truly stunning thing is she might not even qualify as the most degraded female character in the book; Inevera certainly deserves consideration on that front.

[Crazydog7]

2- The explanations for why the Karisian's are forbidden drink and pork came across a bit off to me. Makes Kaji sound a bit like a child

I don't know what is so hard to understand about this particular concept the residents of Fort Krasia hate the freedom enjoyed by the rest of the population of Thesa. Krasia is absolutely not some manner of commentary on Islamic culture

[Castel]

Yeah, I laughed when he tried to claim that the Krasians weren't based on Islamic culture back when DS came out.

[Cause]

Brett ... :cool4:

Not even the first time I have done that recently. In my defense I am rereading The name of the wind.

[Werthead]

The Daylight War by Peter V. Brett

According to prophecy, mankind will be saved by the Deliverer, a figure who will unite all of humanity during the Daylight War before defeating the forces of demonkind in the First War. The demons that rise from the Core at night will be destroyed and peace restored to the world. But there is a problem: two men have arisen, both named as the Deliverer by the people they have saved. From the north comes Arlen, the Painted Man. From the south comes Jardir, the ruler of Krasia, and his armies of well-trained, fanatical warriors. For humanity to survive to fight the First War, only one of them can live.

The Daylight War is the third novel of The Demon Cycle, currently planned to run to five volumes. It follows on from the events of the enjoyable The Painted Man and the less-accomplished Desert Spear and replicates the structure of the latter novel. Whilst the current-day storyline continues to unfold, we are treated to lengthy flashbacks to the past to flesh out the background of a key character, in this case Inevera, Jardir's First Wife.

In this case, these flashbacks are not as extensive as The Desert Spear's, which were important to add to our understanding of the character of Jardir (who, as one of the two major protagonists of the series, needed such fleshing-out to better explain his actions at the end of The Painted Man). Inevera, though an important influence on events, is not a character in the same league and as such her flashbacks are more succinct. This leaves more time for the book to address the modern-day storyline, which has effectively been on hold since the end of The Painted Man: The Desert Spear moved the present-day storyline forwards infinitesimally, due to both the flashbacks taking up an immense amount of the book and an apparent decline in Brett's pacing abilities.

Unfortunately, and for reasons that remain unclear, The Daylight War does not do this. An immense amount of the book is taken up by characters sitting around and talking about the plot, about what has happened (and is redundant, as we've already read it) and what might happen next. Then we switch from the rustic faux-Two Rivers/Shirefolk of Team Arlen to the faux-Muslims of Team Jardir and the exact same thing happens again. Then we get a brief scene in which some demons get killed. Then people discuss the plot a bit more in light of these demons being killed. This happens repeatedly for about 650 pages, whilst the reader wonders what is going on.

Finally, towards the end of the book, we get a couple of big action set-pieces in which lots of demons get killed, there are a few reversals as some minor characters are killed off, and then a painfully contrived final cliffhanger showdown between Jardir and Arlen that comes almost out of nowhere, and seems to be more the result of a dwindling page count then any natural plot development. The book's title also seems misleading: the Daylight War simply does not happen in the this novel (all of the major battles are against demons, not between the two human societies). The conclusion hints that maybe it does not need to happen, with the winner of the duel walking off with all of humanity united, so the title may be deliberately ironic.

The novel is not a complete disaster, despite its flirtation with Crossroads of Twilight levels of pacing. Brett's prose is fairly basic - and if anything has decreased slightly since the first novel - but remains effective at drawing environments, characters and situations. He is good with actions scenes, and his ward-based magic system is well-envisaged. Like Robert Jordan and Brandon Sanderson, Brett has come up with a system that is flexible and imaginative, and allows for it to be reinterpreted and upgraded as the series continues. There's more than a tinge of Dungeons and Dragons to this approach, with Brett's characters 'levelling up' in magical power to face the increasingly powerful monsters they face, but it remains an effective device. We get more information about demons, including more scenes from the demons' POV, which give us a hint about their society (but not their origins which, given that Brett's world is clearly ours millennia hence, remain puzzling).

The book also improves - though moderately - in its treatment of female characters. Previously Brett drastically over-used rape as a device of dramatic change, with both male and female characters suffering some kind of sexual abuse whenever he needed them to undergo some kind of moment of character realisation. In The Daylight War several of these abusers get their just desserts and the institutionalised rape within the Krasian culture is heavily eroded by Jardir's progressive policies (we also see the rise of a Krasian sect of female warriors). Unfortunately this has been replaced by a willingness by the female characters to simply use their bodies as a means to get whatever they want, replacing rape with consensual prostitution. At any rate, though Brett seems aware of the previous books' dubious gender politics and moved to address them, there remains some serious issues in this area which makes for some uncomfortable reading.

The Daylight War (**½) is an extremely badly-paced novel that features a tremendous amount of filler and redundant recapping of the plot. Intermittently, we get good moments of characterisation and a fair few decent action beats, along with some imaginative development of the magic system and the basic premise of the series, which remains interesting. But the book's main storyline crawls forwards at a snail's pace (ending in a contrived cliffhanger) and its treatment of female characters and sexuality remains painfully clumsy, despite minor improvements. The novel is available now in the UK and USA.

[Darth Richard]

Yeah, I laughed when he tried to claim that the Krasians weren't based on Islamic culture back when DS came out.

Yeah, isn't that the same interview where he mentions 9/11 as one of the big influences for these books?

I mean, cmon.

Think I'll skip this one. Maybe in paperback if I'm bored one day. Ah, yes another series that starts of promising and goes down the toilet.

[Calibandar]

Wert's review is the final nail in the coffin. Though I do see you do not seem disturbed by what I find a very irritating manner of speech employed in this novel. I honestly can't see why Brett or his proofreaders could read it for paragraphs in a row and not see how it jars.

[Darth Richard]

If his proofreaders are anything like his fans, they probably asked him to put in MORE hillbilly speak. The amount of worship/praise this one is getting on other areas of the internets makes me think we may be witnessing the second coming of The Yeard.

Well, except as far as I know Brett isn't a butthole in real life.

Maybe the second coming of Farland.

[peterbound]

I dunno. I'm enjoying it. I don't get as spun up about the whole muslium thing as y'all, and I'm enjoying seeing Arlen back. The moves that he's making for the oncoming 'war' make sense to me.

The pacing seems to be fairly brisk, the plot is moving, the flashback are enlightening, and the battle scenes are great. I'm not seeing where the hate is coming from. Maybe it's just the fact that I'm coming off of 'the red knight' which was slow as fuck, and my gauge is a little fucked up, but it seems fine to me. I've not finished it yet, but I'm 200 pages in, and loving it so far.

Leesha, ya, she's a fucking idiot, but everyone book has one.

Couldn't disagree with you more Adam, saying that though, you did give AMoL 4 1/2 stars ... so maybe I could disagree with you a bit more on something.

ETA: Holy fuck! I can't believe you gave that piece of turd almost a perfect score. Did Sanderson promise you an exclusive interview or something?

[Faint]

Somewhat in disbelief that A Memory of Light was given 4 1/2 stars. That is really, really generous. Most fans seem to have it ranked in the bottom third of the series. I'd be hard pressed to give it more than 2 1/2 stars and that extra 1/2 star only because of the nostalgia involved.

[Darth Richard]

THe thing that really bothers me is the accents. TO be fair that's a huge pet peeve of mine.