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Moments of Foreshadowing 4


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#241 greensleeves

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 07:16 PM

...


Thanks for the link and the quote Ragnorak! I think you were the poster I was thinking of that noticed the similarities between this scene and snow Winterfell (I should have known).


From your post in that thread:

Clouds are the source of snow and for Sansa snow is the taste of innocence and dreams. Both this chapter and Snow Winterfell open with Sansa dreaming of home and in both chapters she throws open the shutters to make her discovery. Both have night fading into dawn. This time she just observes while the next time she goes out and actually builds her castle from the snow that falls from the clouds.

The wispy white banners are a recurring image with Jon although they are usually made snow or ice. I noticed in the Tyrion reread that even his trip north with Jon contains an image of a snow banner:

When the wind blew from the north, long plumes of ice crystals flew from the high peaks like banners

The castles start as black and grey the colors of the Starks and the Nights Watch. Would blue be one of the thousand shades of rose? Is that reaching?


So we've got the wispy snow banners (that we could connect with the snow and ice of the wall)...

... but then we've also got a wisp above Winterfell.

From Bran's very moving last glimpse of Winterfell:

Bran turned in his basket for one last glimpse of the castle that had been his life. Wisps of smoke still rose into the grey sky, but no more than might have risen from Winterfell’s chimneys on a cold autumn afternoon. Soot stains marked some of the arrow loops, and here and there a crack or a missing merlon could be seen in the curtain wall, but it seemed little enough from this distance. Beyond, the tops of the keeps and towers still stood as they had for hundreds of years, and it was hard to tell that the castle had been sacked and burned at all.


So we've got a wispy 'banner' associated with Winterfell here. I think this connects with the wispy banners in Sansa's vision.

Edited by greensleeves, 24 April 2013 - 07:17 PM.


#242 StannisSeaworth

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 07:45 PM

When Dany is the House of the Undying, she gets a vision of "From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire." Could this mean that Dragonstone is actually made of dragons, and that someone will awaken one?

#243 Ghost's Shadow

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 07:41 AM

It was a good story, Bran decided after thinking about it a moment or two. “Then what happened? Did the Knight of the Laughing Tree win the tourney and marry a princess?”


Something like that.

#244 Ice Turtle

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 07:58 AM

Something like that.


This one is really good.

#245 TheLostStark

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 09:48 AM

When Mormont is telling jon that he is going north, past the wall and that he will find Benjen and what not.His Raven quorks "Ben Jen", not Ben or Benjen or Ben jen but Ben Jen. I wonder is this is one of those hidden easter eggs GRRM likes to put in his books.

#246 Ser Pollo Loco

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 02:01 PM

not really foreshadowing per se, but maybe someone can enlighten me, i was wondering if anyone had any theories on why Rhaegal and Drogon are always associated together and Viserion keeps to himself. I also found it curios that when Dany treats with the Slaver at Yunaki Viserion doens't spit fire at him when she burns his tokar, but later roast the head of one of the dead stormcrows in the same chapter

#247 Ghost's Shadow

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 02:07 PM

When Mormont is telling jon that he is going north, past the wall and that he will find Benjen and what not.His Raven quorks "Ben Jen", not Ben or Benjen or Ben jen but Ben Jen. I wonder is this is one of those hidden easter eggs GRRM likes to put in his books.


But what does it mean?


Oh, ew. Maybe he got cut through in the middle? /crying.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':crying:' />

I've really no idea, but I'd like to know.

#248 Ser Wun Wun

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 07:36 PM

I think Shireen is going to die soon. She had a dream in ACOK that a dragon was going to eat her:

“I had bad dreams,” Shireen told him. “About the dragons. They were coming to eat me.”

The child had been plagued by nightmares as far back as Maester Cressen could recall. “We have talked of this before,” he said gently. “The dragons cannot come to life. They are carved of stone, child.


The dragons can't eat her because they are made of stone he promises her, an empty promise I think. Then:

ASOS; Davos

“Your brother’s blood,” Melisandre said. “A king’s blood. Only a king’s blood can wake the stone dragon.”


Martin said this in an SSM Entry:

So what's Stannis going to do when Mel decides to sacrifice Shireen?

(Now, that actually startled him a bit. He said, well, yes, it is the blood of a king. Then he just handed me the bowl of cheese doodles. I'm not sure if that meant anything at all...)


Val says that Shireen is dead in ADWD:

“I can. You know nothing, Jon Snow.” Val seized his arm. “I want the monster out of there. Him and his wet nurses. You cannot leave them in that same tower as the dead girl.

Jon shook her hand away. “She is not dead.”

“She is. Her mother cannot see it. Nor you, it seems. Yet death is there.”


Tell me that's not ominous as shit /stunned.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':stunned:' />

Jon also said this in ADWD:

Burning dead children had ceased to trouble Jon Snow; live ones were another matter. Two kings to wake the dragon. The father first and then the son, so both die kings.


Burning dead children, which is what Val called Shireen, had ceased to trouble Jon Snow (not what he meant, but the foreshadowing is there)....also very ominous.

And look at the line 'two kings to wake the dragon, first the father and then the son' Swap out 'son' for 'daughter' (Shireen, by Martin's own admission, is King's Blood, just as much a son would be) and this fits what is happening at the Wall extremely well I think. Jon got word that Stannis was "dead" and now he has been assassinated and set up to be "awakened" through resurrection.

If that resurrection process involves a fire that Shireen is consumed in then all the pieces snap into place almost perfectly. Jon's statement on ceasing to be bothered by burning 'dead children' and then Val calling Shireen a 'dead child'. Shireen's dream that a dragon (Jon) would eat her, the "death" of two kings setting off the process (Stannis "dies", which start's a chain of events that leads to the sacrifice of Shireen's King's Blood) that awakens Jon, the dragon.

Stannis was willing to sacrifice an innocent in Edric Storm in ASOS in order to wake a dragon that would save the world. So there is a rather beautiful irony (though morbid as hell) in his own innocent daughter Shireen ending up as the King's Blood sacrifice that wakes the dragon who will save the world (Jon, leading the fight against the Others).

#249 yolkboy

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 07:39 PM

In regards to Walder Frey...

"Catelyn would gladly have spitted the querulous old man and roasted him over a fire"

Seems like an interesting prospect.

#250 FittleLinger

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 07:58 PM

In regards to Walder Frey...

"Catelyn would gladly have spitted the querulous old man and roasted him over a fire"

Seems like an interesting prospect.


It also resonates well with Freyr, the norse fertility god, who gets killed by a fire giant.

I actually think that the Twins will be Harenhall 2.0. They are in a pretty strategic place to catch some accidental fire as well, should a battle be held.

#251 The Mother of The Others

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 09:52 PM

long has Cat been envisioned burning the Twins with herself inside but never before with large serpents as her fire source. that fits nicely. she could just sneak in to be with Walder as somebody else's army melts the twins to clear a path over the river on their way south.

#252 chrisdaw

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 02:37 AM

Burning dead children, which is what Val called Shireen, had ceased to trouble Jon Snow (not what he meant, but the foreshadowing is there)....also very ominous.


The quote at the end of the paragraph seems as ominous.

The king can be harsh and unforgiving, aye, but a babe still on the breast? Only a monster would give a living child to the flames.


The way it's written makes me think it may be ironic foreshadowing, and it will be Jon doing (sanctioning) the burning.

There's also parallel foreshadowing here, Gregor somewhat gave Sandor to the flames and now he's become a real monster.

Edited by chrisdaw, 26 April 2013 - 02:57 AM.


#253 Grand Maester Mithrandir

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 02:55 AM

I'm not really good at spotting foreshadowing, but Tyrion seems to be associated with quite a few of Viserion's features.

closed his hand around Tyrion’s alabaster dragon, removed it from the board.

A half-seen shape flapped by overhead, pale leathery wings beating at the fog. The dwarf craned his head around to get a better look, but the thing was gone as suddenly as it had appeared.

turtles whose ridged and patterned shells were covered with whorls of gold and jade and cream. Some were so large they could have borne a man upon their backs. Yandry swore the Rhoynar princes used to ride them across the river.

or maybe I'm just a Tyrion fan who's overreaching..


I came across this one when rereading AGoT, and I think it speaks to Sandor, Loras and Gregor and their current situations(them being "dead" men walking) from AFFC onwards

There were shadows all around them. One shadow was dark as ash, with the terrible face of a hound. Another was armored like the sun, golden and beautiful. Over them both loomed a giant in armor made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood.

Or it could just foreshadow the events of the Hands tourney

Edited by Grand Maester Mithrandir, 26 April 2013 - 09:50 AM.


#254 Lady Gwynhyfvar

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 10:57 AM

I think Shireen is going to die soon. She had a dream in ACOK that a dragon was going to eat her:



The dragons can't eat her because they are made of stone he promises her, an empty promise I think. Then:



Martin said this in an SSM Entry:



Val says that Shireen is dead in ADWD:



Tell me that's not ominous as shit /stunned.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':stunned:' />

Jon also said this in ADWD:



Burning dead children, which is what Val called Shireen, had ceased to trouble Jon Snow (not what he meant, but the foreshadowing is there)....also very ominous.

And look at the line 'two kings to wake the dragon, first the father and then the son' Swap out 'son' for 'daughter' (Shireen, by Martin's own admission, is King's Blood, just as much a son would be) and this fits what is happening at the Wall extremely well I think. Jon got word that Stannis was "dead" and now he has been assassinated and set up to be "awakened" through resurrection.

If that resurrection process involves a fire that Shireen is consumed in then all the pieces snap into place almost perfectly. Jon's statement on ceasing to be bothered by burning 'dead children' and then Val calling Shireen a 'dead child'. Shireen's dream that a dragon (Jon) would eat her, the "death" of two kings setting off the process (Stannis "dies", which start's a chain of events that leads to the sacrifice of Shireen's King's Blood) that awakens Jon, the dragon.

Stannis was willing to sacrifice an innocent in Edric Storm in ASOS in order to wake a dragon that would save the world. So there is a rather beautiful irony (though morbid as hell) in his own innocent daughter Shireen ending up as the King's Blood sacrifice that wakes the dragon who will save the world (Jon, leading the fight against the Others).


What I find particularly interesting here is the parallel between Shireen's dreams and Targ dragon dreams (especially those of Daeron in The Hedge Knight) Let's not forget her Targ blood. Very ominous stuff.

#255 Lady Gwynhyfvar

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 11:01 AM

I came across this one when rereading AGoT, and I think it speaks to Sandor, Loras and Gregor and their current situations(them being "dead" men walking) from AFFC onwards

Or it could just foreshadow the events of the Hands tourney


Hmm, that's interesting.
I always thought it was Sandor, Jaime and LF as the giant, foreshadowing LF as a prime mover behind many of the events. I wouldn't rule out your interpetation though.

#256 The Drunkard

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 11:02 AM

I think Shireen is going to die soon. She had a dream in ACOK that a dragon was going to eat her:



The dragons can't eat her because they are made of stone he promises her, an empty promise I think. Then:



Martin said this in an SSM Entry:



Val says that Shireen is dead in ADWD:



Tell me that's not ominous as shit /stunned.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':stunned:' />

Jon also said this in ADWD:



Burning dead children, which is what Val called Shireen, had ceased to trouble Jon Snow (not what he meant, but the foreshadowing is there)....also very ominous.

And look at the line 'two kings to wake the dragon, first the father and then the son' Swap out 'son' for 'daughter' (Shireen, by Martin's own admission, is King's Blood, just as much a son would be) and this fits what is happening at the Wall extremely well I think. Jon got word that Stannis was "dead" and now he has been assassinated and set up to be "awakened" through resurrection.

If that resurrection process involves a fire that Shireen is consumed in then all the pieces snap into place almost perfectly. Jon's statement on ceasing to be bothered by burning 'dead children' and then Val calling Shireen a 'dead child'. Shireen's dream that a dragon (Jon) would eat her, the "death" of two kings setting off the process (Stannis "dies", which start's a chain of events that leads to the sacrifice of Shireen's King's Blood) that awakens Jon, the dragon.

Stannis was willing to sacrifice an innocent in Edric Storm in ASOS in order to wake a dragon that would save the world. So there is a rather beautiful irony (though morbid as hell) in his own innocent daughter Shireen ending up as the King's Blood sacrifice that wakes the dragon who will save the world (Jon, leading the fight against the Others).


Well, that's depressing.

I'm off to weep now.

#257 Ser Wun Wun

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 11:13 AM

Well, that's depressing.

I'm off to weep now.


In TWOW, Tommen is going to be murdered by Varys to shatter the Lannister-Tyrell alliance for Aegon....just thought you'd like to hear that /smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />

Also, I think Septon Cellador was involved in the plot to assassinate Jon:

ADWD; Jon

Septon Cellador appeared confused and groggy and in dire need of some scales from the dragon that had flamed him, whilst First Builder Othell Yarwyck looked as if he had swallowed something he could not quite digest.


Jon is the dragon, and the Septon got his "scales" the day they assassinated Jon. He also spoke against Jon in ASOS:

ASOS; Jon

Septon Cellador cleared his throat. “Lord Slynt,” he said, “this boy refused to swear his vows properly in the sept, but went beyond the Wall to say his words before a heart tree. His father’s gods, he said, but they are wildling gods as well.”


So there is precedent for him being anti-Jon imo.

Edited by Ser Wun Wun, 26 April 2013 - 11:14 AM.


#258 Grand Maester Mithrandir

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 12:44 PM

Hmm, that's interesting.
I always thought it was Sandor, Jaime and LF as the giant, foreshadowing LF as a prime mover behind many of the events.

Yea yours makes more sense I guess. What got me onto mine was the last line ''but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood.''

#259 Fire Eater

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 09:27 PM

After that came a savory snake stew, chunks of seven different sorts of snake slow-simmered in dragon peppers and blood oranges and a dash of venom to give it good bite.

All Dornishmen were snakes, and the Martells were the worst of them.

I think we will see seven members of the Martell family die in the series, with the snakes described as simmered in dragon peppers to hint at the reasons for their demise. Oberyn and Quentyn are already dead. When a weak Doran hears about what happened Quentyn, it may kill him. Arianne will perish in the second Dance of Dragons. Oberyn's daughters Obara, Tyene and Nymeria will join him to the grave with Tyene likely being killed when Cersei scours Baelor's Sept where Tyene is getting close to the HS, and Obara and Nymeria may perish in the second Dance of Dragons.

Or the seventh couldn't be Oberyn, but Sarella Sand who dies in Oldtown due to either Euron's assault, Jaqen or Dany burning the city, but I'm a bit reluctant to name her since she seems to use her brain unlike her sisters and is away from her family's political machinations. I think it could rather Elia, who is named for a dead woman and is akin to the KoLT, Lyanna, who also died.

Edited by Fire Eater, 07 June 2013 - 11:28 AM.


#260 Eir

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 10:04 PM

After that came a savory snake stew, chunks of seven different sorts of snake slow-simmered in dragon peppers and blood oranges and a dash of venom to give it good bite.

All Dornishmen were snakes, and the Martells were the worst of them.


Great find--this could definitely be a hint towards the upcoming Dance of Dragons 2.0. Perhaps it's a clue that the Targaryens, associated with dragons and blood (and Dornish peppers are known to be "fiery"), will cause the "seven" kingdoms to fragment again (after being "simmered in [fire] and blood").

What were the other courses? The "after that" has me curious. Could the previous courses have described events that have already occurred?

Edited by Eir, 26 April 2013 - 10:14 PM.