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R'hllor and the old gods


Three eyed wolf

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The red god and the old gods seem to be complete opposites ice and fire, light and (possibly) dark, seeing the future and seeing the past. My theory is that the old gods are the great other, neither of them seem to have a name and they are both seemingly opposites of R'hllor.

My question is if you agree with me and which (if either of them) is really the evil one, or are both of them evil?

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The greatest mistake you made was to presume there are `good` and `bad` gods. Gods are gods. People who believe in them make them good or bad. It all depends on people. Not on some superpower, than on those who decide in what to believe, and act upon that.

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The red god and the old gods seem to be complete opposites ice and fire, light and (possibly) dark, seeing the future and seeing the past. My theory is that the old gods are the great other, neither of them seem to have a name and they are both seemingly opposites of R'hllor.

My question is if you agree with me and which (if either of them) is really the evil one, or are both of them evil?

The old gods were Children of the Forest green seers. If they are the Great Other, too, why did the Children help the First Men defeat the Others in the Long Night?

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The red god and the old gods seem to be complete opposites ice and fire, light and (possibly) dark, seeing the future and seeing the past. My theory is that the old gods are the great other, neither of them seem to have a name and they are both seemingly opposites of R'hllor.

My question is if you agree with me and which (if either of them) is really the evil one, or are both of them evil?

Both the old gods and the red god can see the future, and probably the past. Think about what fire and ice make together? Water which is necessary for all life. Too much of fire or ice and all life dies though.

I think you're theory is wrong since the Children of the Forest gave obsidian weapons to the NW to help defend the wall against the others, therefore it doesn't make much sense for them to be working for the great other.

The great other is probably one of the names for the God of Many Faces and Many Names. Death. Darkness. Etc.

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I reckon that the First men were once followers of R'hllor, like when they first came to westeros they burnt a lot of the weirwords, just like what Melisandre would do now. After a while in westeros they began to see the power of the children of the forest and eventually converted to the Old Gods.

There is no evil/good god, they maybe polar opposites though ye and enemies of each other.

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I think R'Hllor is just an aspect of the 'Old Gods' that got a name put to the specific magic. Think Storm God and Drowned God.

I like to think of it like a Cartesian plane. The Storm God being horizontally left, the Drowned God being horizontally right, R'Hllor being vertically up, while the Great Other is vertically down. All are apart of the same plane, and are connected at the origin (would could be magic itself, or the Old Gods)

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R'Hllor and the Great Other are opposites ( much like God and the Devil ) in the minds of R'Hllor's worshippers... But the other religions exist in their own right ...completely outside of that construct ...unless you happen to believe that R'Hllor is the one true God... All other gods are seen as false by the followers of R'Hllor, and if false, must be either inventions, demons, servants , or aspects of the Great Other... That doesn't mean they are. It doesn't mean that the followers of Red Rahloo have the right of it.

I think the "Ice" and "Fire" have to do with Ice Magic and Fire Magic that exist ,no matter what religion people happen to believe in. There are obviously other kinds of magic as well, but they're just not out of control / on the verge of being out of control ( except as affected by Ice and Fire )... It might be like a pendulum ..Maybe the CoTF in trying to break the land bridge set it off.. The Long Night, a swing in one direction, followed by Valyria, a swing in the opposite direction...etc..??

When the first men burned weirwoods, they may just have been using fire as a weapon of terror ,as we see the armies in the riverlands use it..It wouldn't necessarily make them followers of R'Hllor. besides ,they were bigger , quicker to reproduce , had metal weapons...if they also had a religion so agressively opposed to the idea of any other religion , I doubt they would ever have adopted the Old Gods.

I don't understand why so many readers seem to want to convert to that Nasty Peice of Work !

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The greatest mistake you made was to presume there are `good` and `bad` gods. Gods are gods. People who believe in them make them good or bad. It all depends on people. Not on some superpower, than on those who decide in what to believe, and act upon that.

That's the most important point about gods!

In Westeros or in our real world - the gods are just gods and most likely don't give a fig about mortals.

It's just some wicked ones of these mortals which abuse the gods for their scheming, lies and try to use them to control other people for their personal benefit...

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I knew there could be a connection between the Seven and the Red God (There is only one god, with seven aspects) but I didn't know how the Old Gods would fit in, and I still don't really see it, the Old Gods aren't evil nor were the Children of the Forest so I don't think they are. Maybe we'll find out some day.

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  • 2 months later...

I view R'hllor and the Great Other as opposite ends of a scale.

Too much ice/to much cold and things cannot live.

Too much fire/too much heat and things cannot live.

Both religions are dangerous because each want to snuff out the other, thus creating an imbalance.

I think the Old Gods and the Children of the Forrest serve to keep the balance between ice and fire.

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I think the reason it's the Song and not the War, is because over the years the occasional smarter than average person comes along and realizes that neither can exist without the other. When the last Targ dragon died the winters started getting longer and harsher. You remove the fire element and you have what we have now, ice beings plunging the land into eternal night and cold. You take away the Ice element and the fire burns and consumes everything. So in essence they both have to exist to keep the other in check. Or, what could end up being the "bittersweet" part, is that they must both be extinguished. Personally I would prefer the former, I would rather see the two exist peacefully but most likely we'll end up with the latter and will have neither one when it's all said and done. Maybe that's what Rhaegar realized and that's why he tried to merge the two, in order to save them both, but with the way these books go I hate to admit it will most likely end badly for the Ice and the Fire.
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  • 5 months later...

The old gods were Children of the Forest green seers. If they are the Great Other, too, why did the Children help the First Men defeat the Others in the Long Night?

Exactly. The others are not the friends of the children of the forest.

Why would the Children of the Forest turn on humans when the humans and the flaming sword people are the people who saved them last time?

Suppose they did that. Then the Others would turn on them and wipe them out in seconds.

Remember Old Nan said that the white walkers go after anything that has red blood. They aren't going to be friends with the Children.

Anyway that's my belief.

As for the religion of the Children, it's a different sort of religion. It's more of a pantheistic thing, whereas Rh'llor is One God, the Children's "Gods" are the immortal trees (weirwoods) and the earth.

I think when Melisandre says "Rh'llor is the one true God" she is right (not counting his icy dual). The old gods aren't really a counterexample because the aren't really gods so much as immortal, incredibly amazing trees.

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  • 7 months later...

I think that it is all about a balance between them. Both seem to be good and evil because they are gods and they smite as needed. I think that long ago in valyria the fire god overstepped this balance causing The Doom of Valyria. Now since the dragons have been gone for so long the ice god has gained too much power and tipped the scale and now it's own sort of apocalyptic event is starting in westeros with the white walkers taking over. Hopefully the newly born dragons can set things back into balance

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I reckon that the First men were once followers of R'hllor, like when they first came to westeros they burnt a lot of the weirwords, just like what Melisandre would do now.

I like that theory. Melisandre is always telling people to chop down and burn Weirwoods and the First Men loved to chop down and burn weirdwoods.

I think no matter what you think of the religions, we can all concur that "the seven" are a completely bunkass week religion.

Septons seem to be the only "holy men" who have absolutely no power besides conning people into doing their bidding, money, and political suction.

I mean hell, at least the Drowned Men have some kind of proto CPR and Patchface. I mean those wouldn't be my first choice of super power/avatar but its better than tough feet and the fat high septon.

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There are no gods in Terros. There are many religions in Terros, each of which claims to be allied to one or more gods.



There is magic, in several flavors, usable in many different places and cultures, with and without the influence of religion. Supernatural experiences happen, but they are magical, not divine.



There are lots of magicians of all sorts, many of whom believe in various cultural religious ideas concerning the source of their magical practices.



These cultural and religious ideas provide moral guidance about how people should behave and how they should use their magics. Some of these religious ideas are useful, as they help people behave better towards one another. Some are just plain vile and even nuts, as they encourage their followers to behave badly to one another.



R'hllor doesn't exist, The Great Other doesn't exist, the Drowned God doesn't exist, the Storm God doesn't exist, and neither do the Seven. These imaginary beings have many followers, and so it pays to watch what the priests are trying to get the followers to do, not as holy men but as politicians.



The "Cold gods" are a mystery, as they seem to be the hypothesized leaders/creators of the white walkers, who are themselves some sort of Ice life, just as dragons and fyreworms are Fire life. My guess is the "Cold gods" are magicians, like the Undying, but I don't know, we haven't seen them in the books yet.



The "Old Gods" exist, but they aren't gods, they are long-lived tree root dwellers, and at least a few of them are human. Can you imagine praying to Bloodraven or to Bran?




ETA: the cold gods paragraph


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Don't have a link to the original but this is relevant:

INTERVIEWER: There are several competing religions in this series now. Should we be wondering if some are more true than others? In a world with magic, is religion just magic with an extra layer of mythos?

GRRM: Well, the readers are certainly free to wonder about the validity of these religions, the truth of these religions, and the teachings of these religions. I'm a little leery of the word "true" — whether any of these religions are more true than others. I mean, look at the analogue of our real world. We have many religions too. Are some of them more true than others? I don't think any gods are likely to be showing up in Westeros, any more than they already do. We're not going to have one appearing, deus ex machina, to affect the outcomes of things, no matter how hard anyone prays. So the relation between the religions and the various magics that some people have here is something that the reader can try to puzzle out.

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