R+L=J v.42

[Ygrain]

"... the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black." AGoT p. 44

Are these rose petals left over from the crown that Rhaegar gave Lyanna? I have always thought that these petals were meant to be from the crown to show that she had kept it.

Also, was the crown something that was prepared by the Whent's or did Rhaegar make up the crown of winter roses because he knew that Lyanna loved those flowers?

My line of thought, as well. Plus, if she had the crown with her, it definitely wasn't a kidnapping.

[MtnLion]

"... the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black." AGoT p. 44

Are these rose petals left over from the crown that Rhaegar gave Lyanna? I have always thought that these petals were meant to be from the crown to show that she had kept it.

I read it that the result of Lyanna's and Rhaegar's union, a baby slipped from her hands when she died. Black and dead leads one to several conclusions, one if Robert finds out the certain outcome, two alluding to the Night's Watch.

Also, was the crown something that was prepared by the Whent's or did Rhaegar make up the crown of winter roses because he knew that Lyanna loved those flowers?

It reads that the crown was something that the Whents had made up, as the hosts of the tourney. The Whents held it, first, and planned to hold it till the end to give to their sister.

[J. Stargaryen]

I read it that the result of Lyanna's and Rhaegar's union, a baby slipped from her hands when she died. Black and dead leads one to several conclusions, one if Robert finds out the certain outcome, two alluding to the Night's Watch. It reads that the crown was something that the Whents had made up, as the hosts of the tourney. The Whents held it, first, and planned to hold it till the end to give to their sister.

I've stated before that Jon, the blue winter rose, is apparently both dead and black (NW) at the end of ADwD.

[Budj]

I think they would have to be the same flowers from the crown since the blue rose only grows in the North and the amount of time it would take to go North and get them and bring back would be a significant portion of time compared to their entire stay at the ToJ...

In other news I've noticed a surge in 'fire-proof' Dany arguments over in ADwD / Twow threads... how come we haven't gotten any of that love in here yet?

[Ygrain]

I think they would have to be the same flowers from the crown since the blue rose only grows in the North and the amount of time it would take to go North and get them and bring back would be a significant portion of time compared to their entire stay at the ToJ...

In other news I've noticed a surge in 'fire-proof' Dany arguments over in ADwD / Twow threads... how come we haven't gotten any of that love in here yet?

Do we know for sure that they grow only in the North? It sounds plausible but I don't recall it explicitely mentioned.

Where is that Dany love? :-)

[Budj]

It is being defended over in the "Jon snow...and dragons" thread, oddly enough....

I may have been confused it could be a 'winter' flower. The one instance I recall of them being grown somewhere was in WF from the Bael the bard story.

Edit: Hence why I thought they were from the North.

[Queen of Procrastination]

About the Rhaegar pedo "argument". Apart from what the other allready said about the Westerosi society.

IIRC Lyanna was 16 when she died and Rhaegar 23. So he was seven years older that her.

I know a girl who had a 24 years old boyfriend when she was 17. I agree that this seems a bit much, but there are many married couples with a 10 years differece of age and it works perfectly.

Something like 90 year old married to a 15 year old is certainly pedo, but R+L wasn´t 7 years seems a bit much, but it can work.

[Ghost's Shadow]

‘All I ask is a flower’ Bael answered, ‘the fairest flower that blooms in the gardens o’ Winterfell.’

“Now as it happened the winter roses had only then come into bloom, and no flower is so rare nor precious. So the Stark sent to his glass gardens and commanded that the most beautiful o’ the winter roses be plucked for the singer’s payment.

Is all I could find right now, as said above!

[Budj]

Is all I could find right now, as said above!

Regardless of the location the rarity described above likely adds support that they came from the same crown.

[UVA]

About the Rhaegar pedo "argument". Apart from what the other allready said about the Westerosi society.

IIRC Lyanna was 16 when she died and Rhaegar 23. So he was seven years older that her.

I know a girl who had a 24 years old boyfriend when she was 17. I agree that this seems a bit much, but there are many married couples with a 10 years differece of age and it works perfectly.

Something like 90 year old married to a 15 year old is certainly pedo, but R+L wasn´t 7 years seems a bit much, but it can work.

I don't know if seven years is such a disparity in-universe or not. (I was engaged to a man who was ten years older than I was, I was 21 at the time. :blushing: ) Lyanna was younger than both Rhaegar and Robert -- isn't Robert 19 or 20 at the start of the Rebellion? But she's not a per-pubescent girl. Based on what I know of the timeline she most likely was 14 at Harrenhal and 15 when she disappeared with Rhaegar, 16 when she died. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[sabrecmc]

I don’t doubt the integrity or loyalty of the 3 KG but I just need to remind first myself and then others that no POV character and one of them being actually of the KG and undoubtedly a loyal one, has never implied that Lyanna and Rhaegar could have been married since his sworn brothers were present there and not with Viserys or provided an explanation for their actions.

So, maybe, since not everything is set in stone, there could be another explanation that would justify why they chose to stay there and not go to Viserys. If it’s so clear why no one in Westeros seems to find it odd?

I have to admit that this has always stumped me, as much as I am convinced that R +L = J. Is it just that there isn't one person with enough knowledge of who was at the TOJ, what the KG vow means and that Viserys was being spirited off with Darry? Does Selmy not know these things? In my head, I always imagine Tyrion putting it all together eventually, but it is curious that no one seems to have questioned things. Is there one person who would realistically have enough knowledge to say, "Hmmmm..."? Though, I guess logic says that the much simpler explanation is that Ned fathered a bastard while off at war as many men do rather than believe in some grand cover-up. Maybe it is just people not questioning the honorable Ned who says this is his son.

[Bossman Tyrion]

I have to admit that this has always stumped me, as much as I am convinced that R +L = J. Is it just that there isn't one person with enough knowledge of who was at the TOJ, what the KG vow means and that Viserys was being spirited off with Darry? Does Selmy not know these things? In my head, I always imagine Tyrion putting it all together eventually, but it is curious that no one seems to have questioned things. Is there one person who would realistically have enough knowledge to say, "Hmmmm..."? Though, I guess logic says that the much simpler explanation is that Ned fathered a bastard while off at war as many men do rather than believe in some grand cover-up. Maybe it is just people not questioning the honorable Ned who says this is his son.

Put Tyrion and Selmy in the same room (you can chuck Daeny in if you so please), bring the conversation up and I'd back Tyrion - with Selmy's help to at least consider the possibility. It does seem odd that no-one has.

[Sasha Steelsong]

I have to admit that this has always stumped me, as much as I am convinced that R +L = J. Is it just that there isn't one person with enough knowledge of who was at the TOJ, what the KG vow means and that Viserys was being spirited off with Darry? Does Selmy not know these things? In my head, I always imagine Tyrion putting it all together eventually, but it is curious that no one seems to have questioned things. Is there one person who would realistically have enough knowledge to say, "Hmmmm..."? Though, I guess logic says that the much simpler explanation is that Ned fathered a bastard while off at war as many men do rather than believe in some grand cover-up. Maybe it is just people not questioning the honorable Ned who says this is his son.

I think it has A LOT to do with Ned as to why there weren't more questions. First off the only other person of note who was there was Howland Reed and he hasn't left his swamp since, so it is not like people can really question him even if they want to. I know other people were likely there but I don't get the impression that a peasant/servant's word is worth all that much. More importantly, Ned is volunteering that he is the boy's father. Not only is Ned known for being honest so people really aren't going to question whether he's really telling the truth, but also Ned being this paragon of honor technically screwed up by having a bastard that is known, and people like it when paragons fall. So I'm guessing between the idea that Noble Ned fathered a bastard and Ned claiming him, people were not inclined to ask questions. Particularly since he looked like a Stark...there may have been more questions if he had any noticeable Targ features, so Ned did luck out on that.

I do also find it interesting however that the two people who knew Rhaegar and might have been able to see aspects of him in Jon were either not at Winterfell (Selmy) or blind (Aemon).

[Ser Creighton]

What GRRM says is that the dream is not to be taken literally. There are definitely dream elements, such as rose petals snowing around, or the wraith-companions, that can be attributed to fever, and the dream itself may not be a word for word script of what had happened, rather only the gist. However, the fight at ToJ is Ned’s recurring dream (or rather a nightmare), not just one feverish vision.

You need to read on – you can skip the chapters in between and stick to Ned’s PoVs (and perhaps Dany’s). Later on, he muses how he always keeps his vows and that he paid a price for that, which is inconsistent with merely bringing her home. Furthermore, as he has already fulfilled this promise, there is no reason why it should haunt him like it does and in situations that it does (see below)

Again, the bed of blood is elsewhere – the hints are scattered all over Ned’s PoVs.

The importance of the roses here is the connection to Rhaegar, because he must have arranged the flowers for her, and that they were so dear to her that she held onto them on her deathbed.

The thorns underneath are a common symbolism, most ofteninterpreted that something that seems perfect and beautiful can also be dangerous or cause harm. In relation to the ASOIAF story, we can read the thorns as the tragedy that ensued and that no.one expected at that time, though this is not the only option.

Yes, he certainly rephrased what he meant to say and the subject is painful for him.

“They” is definitely not a mistake. There is no further hint to this anywhere, there can only be made a logical assumption that the ToJ must have been staffed to take care of Lyanna’s needs; the most common guess is a midwife/nurse which might be Wylla

Elsewhere, Robert mention Rhaegar raping Lyanna repeatedly. We do not know what Ned stated as a cause of Lyanna’s death but claiming that Rhaegar never harmed Lyanna would have been little use, IMHO, as abducting a girl he fell for and then not having sex with her would hardly sound plausible.

True enough, this particular scene suggests nothing about love; this again comes from hints further on – perhaps rather than hints, there are facts which do not fit.

First, Dany speaks about Rhaegar dying for the woman he loved – not necessarily true, as she has no way of knowing what really happened, but at least it demonstrates that there is a different version of the story.

Then, you have the name of the place – Tower of Joy. That would be pretty calluous from a rapist to call that the place where he brutalized and imprisoned his victim.

Next, that weird thought about Rhaegar, unlike Robert, not frequenting brothels – the actual content of the comparison does not really matter; the strange thing is that a comparison between the betrothed and the rapist is drawn at all, and that it is one favourable of the rapist. It’s a very weird thing to think for the brother of the raped victim – unless there was no rape. (Personally, this particular sentence set me on the track – it was a moment of WTF, why is he thinking this?!)

Next there is that scene when Jorah compares Dany to Rhaegar when she saves Eroeh from further raping, saying that this is what Rhaegar would have done – again, something inconsistent with the picture of an uncaring rapist. We may claim that Jorah wasn’t at ToJ and cannot know what happened or not but it is yet another piece that doesn’t fit.

Finally, you have that mention about Lyanna’s wolf blood that caused her early death, which very clearly indicates some action on Lyanna’s part that made her complicit in her fate, not merely someone’s victim.

None of these hints carries much weight on its own; together, though, they form the same patterns, all point to the same conclusion: Rhaegar never raped Lyanna.

Here I would like to address the matter of Lyanna’s age. While considered a child by contemporary standards, she is already a young woman by Westerosi ones (Sansa says that noble girls start bleeding at 12-13, so Lyanna is most probably also “flowered”). Add to it earlier mental maturity, and the picture you receive is definitely not one of a Humbert Humbert. – Plus, it’s not unrealistic even in RL: when I was 14, I was still a kid – another girl I knew, older by just a couple of months but still 14, was a woman already and looked and behaved 16. That’s fully adult by Westerosi standards.

Thanks, for the reply I would like to talk about the age thing. In AGoT they age is often brought up. Jon and Robb are both 14 right. And Ned does not consider them men. Dant is 13 and she asks if Drogo who she is about to meet likes his women as young as her. I know in some cases it happensswith arranged marriges in the series. But I am talking about love here. For her I could gt it she is young, and he is the Crown prince, but for again to me it feels off, he is in his 20's and if he is first making a move ther, she is 14 and it's a horrible moment to do that. And it is not really fare to her or Elia or the Starks in general. That's not a good situation he is married.

But what always gets me with Rhaegar is his actions, they are all off, they are not normal. And I know love is an easy answer, "Love conquers all, love of the ages, all for love, Romeo and Juliet. but his actions contradict who he seems to be or is described in the books. Lyanna too, if it is love.

Now take Lyanna, she sits and talks with Ned not about love, but faithfulness. She is an educated Lady, she has been taught what we have seen all the characters in the books are talk. She was not talking about love she did not want someone who would be unfaithful. But then she runs of with a married man. I know Rhaegar was not in love with Elia at least that is what we are told. But it's an arranged marraige there is more to it than just love. There is family names and house respect, and honoring a commitment. And he didn't do that no matter what he did, he left her. I can't imagine House Martell was thrilled, with that. Now he would know what his actions are going ot cause, no house is going to just take that on the chin, it's a slap in the face. Even if Elia was lets say cool with it, we are talking about her house.

Now after HH he has another kid with Elia in 282, Aegon, some time after that he vanishes with Lyanna. That makes no sense to me, he has a kid with one woman, says the kid is the Prince that was promised, then runs off with Lyanna for whatever reason and leaves Elia and the kids in the hands of Aegon. Now maybe he planned to get them out, I don't know. I do this, he was those kids father and her husband. At the very least he owed her the respect of making sure her and her children were safe. Considering he new his father was a problem. And the kids weather he loved Lyanna or not does not matter, those are his children, and they are his responsablity, he is there father, and he ditched them and he did not leave them in a good place and he did not make sure they were taken someplace safe. If it's love he ran off with another woman and showed no ability to love his kids. What kind of guy is that. I have to call into question his character here. People say he was a great guy but his actions contradict that.

Look he had responsibilities, love is great but he was a man, an educated man in his 20. He didn't have time to be running around acting like a spoiled love sick 15 year old who could care less about anything but his own needs.

When Lyanna was taken/ran away whatever, what did he think would happen? He has been educated at court he is suppose to be very smart, I have seen 14 year olds in the books who know how this works. He slapped Martell in the face, the Starks in the face, and made off with the betrothed wife of the Storm Lord. How on earth could this have ended well?

At some point when the war breaks out, he stays in hiding, now eventually Hightower finds them and he agrees to return and Hightower says he will stay. Now he is going off to fight Ned and Robert, who he wronged no matter what it was he wronged both there houses and then his father really, really wronged them. Now he is going to go and try and kill them. Now maybe he didn't want to but he was still doing it.

I just can't but a love story with this guy, his actions just tell me to much about him. he put himself ahead of his kids, his wife and the kingdom. Weather he loved Elia or not does not matter, he made commitments he had responsabilities and he broke them, all of them. It just tells me to much about him, these are not good qualities, I don't see a lot of love, what I see is a selfish person. His kids, I just can't get passed that. You break your word, your ignore your responsabilities as a father, you endanger the whole kingdom, you insult multiple houses, you endanger Lyanna and it leads to her death. Look love is great but it is not worth that or even close to it. It shows a complete lack of character. He had to know there was a war going on at some point before Hightower, I just don't by he didn't know. The second he found out he should been out the door trying to stop it, trying to protect his kids and Elia and to save the kingdom from hell.

And I try to wonder what a girl like Lyanna thought, a Stark, who tend to be pretty well raised. I mean she spoke of faithfullness being important and then goes with a guy who dumps his wife, kids and responsabilities. I don't see how she would be cool with that.

For me the actions just don't add up to a love story, they don't really add up at all. Nobody does that many stupid things even when love is involved.

One thing I don't understand is why Rhaegar on the trident? He had Hightower, Selmy and others to lead the battle. Rhaegar had never fought in a war or led an army, so why did the king want him? My own theory goes back to Hightower and Jamie, when the mad King was killing Neds father and Brother, Hightower said something along the lines of "Ours is not to judge the king, we just obey him." I sometimes think the King ordered her death, after all it seems like he wanted all Starks dead. I don't think Dayne was in on it.

My other theory for Rhaegar goes back to the dragon has three heads. To me I think he saw Dany, and he thought it was a vision of a future daughter. I think he wanted to fulfill the prophecy however he interpreted it, and I think he believed he needed another child. I think he thought the Prince would be the Return of Aegon the first. And that in order to fulfill the whole prophecy the dragon needed three heads Aegon and his sisters, the return of the dragons. Elia cold not have kids so he picked Lyanna. I think when he gave Lyanna the crown of love and beauty he was actually doing a nice thing because she was the knight of the laughing tree and he found out and was giving her a form of respect.

I think later on when he needed someone to have another child with she needed to meet certian criteria for the prophecy. I think Lyanna met those criteria as a queen of love and beauty and as having Targ blood(theory). I think Neds Grandfather on his mothers side was the unnamed son of Aegon the 5th. That's why I think he took her. Weather it is seduction or abduction, that's kind of how I think it wennt down. I don't think he was evil but I always got the feeling he jsut got caught up in the prophecy and it took over his life. I think that was his obsession not Lyanna and I think she like many others got caught in the crossfire. The targ bllod thing goes back to a comment made to Ned about "we wed the dragons and the dragons are all dead now comment." The thing is the "we" stands out as both of them and "wed seemed a stange choice of words." Not to mention the Baratheons not only Wed the Dragons but they came with Aegon the 1st, and it is suspected that Orys Baratheon the founder of house Baratheon was Aegons half brother. It seemed Robert was talkign about something more recent, they also had to decide who had the best claim to the throne, Robert clearly did and it should not have been a question unless Ned had Targ blood too.

That's all I got, and I just can't trust Rhaegar to be a love story, aside from the fact that it seems to easy and is very cliche. His character and judgment just tell me to much about the guy. I am sorry it just does not make sense to me.

Hey good luck with your theory on R+L=J it would be great if you proved it. But I really hope Ned is his father for now. Cause this guy is just to shady for me, and I can't respect a single choice he made. It's just my opinion. Oh and I actually hope Jon's mother is alive, I mean give the kid a break, give him something.

[MtnLion]

<snip>

That's all I got, and I just can't trust Rhaegar to be a love story, aside from the fact that it seems to easy and is very cliche. His character and judgment just tell me to much about the guy. I am sorry it just does not make sense to me.

Hey good luck with your theory on R+L=J it would be great if you proved it. But I really hope Ned is his father for now. Cause this guy is just to shady for me, and I can't respect a single choice he made. It's just my opinion. Oh and I actually hope Jon's mother is alive, I mean give the kid a break, give him something.

Well, now. It seems that you had a lot to say, but you don't support any of it with text. It merely boils down to how you feel the situation is, and has nothing to do with the textual evidence of the story. Suffice it to say, we have no character besides Robert with a negative thought about Rhaegar. That in no way supports your feelings or desires. As I said upthread, it really has been written that Rhaegar and Lyanna married and had a child, three of the most honorable men in the world defended him with their lives as they had vowed to do. Now if the only way you would believe that the story is true is if Jon knew, then you may have a wait, yet.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

...Suffice it to say, we have no character besides Robert with a negative thought about Rhaegar.

The most telling thing is that this includes Ned Stark who never thinks a bad thought about Rhaegar- rather unusual if his beloved sister had been mistreated in any way, which would include being taken advantage of or "used" by an older man.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

I read it that the result of Lyanna's and Rhaegar's union, a baby slipped from her hands when she died. Black and dead leads one to several conclusions, one if Robert finds out the certain outcome, two alluding to the Night's Watch.

The black petals in Ned's memory could also symbolize R+L's doomed love, while the storm of blue petals from his dream are Jon, who is the continuation of that love. And then by extension, black for the danger from Robert and the future in the NW.

@Ygrain- great point. I always assumed that it was the actual crown too but you nailed it with the observation that L carrying the thing around with her would seem to preclude abduction by force.

[Techelles]

snip

This is the kind of random spitballing that I was talking about in that other ToJ thread. Instead of going to extraordinary lengths to concoct scenarios that contradict R+L=J, consider building your theories from the facts up, not from your personal preferences down. If you don't start from the text, you won't get anywhere. Martin wants us to react to what he has specifically written rather than to any assumptions that we might happen to make about the world he has created.

[Jon Icefyre]

The targ bllod thing goes back to a comment made to Ned about "we wed the dragons and the dragons are all dead now comment." The thing is the "we" stands out as both of them and "wed seemed a stange choice of words." Not to mention the Baratheons not only Wed the Dragons but they came with Aegon the 1st, and it is suspected that Orys Baratheon the founder of house Baratheon was Aegons half brother. It seemed Robert was talkign about something more recent

What?? That comment wasn't made towards Ned and it wasn't from Robert. Greatjon Umber made that comment to all the other Northern and Riverland lords in his speech that declared Robb Stark King of the North in GOT chapter 71 Cat pov. So I don't know where your getting that idea from.....

[J. Stargaryen]

This is the kind of random spitballing that I was talking about in that other ToJ thread. Instead of going to extraordinary lengths to concoct scenarios that contradict R+L=J, consider building your theories from the facts up, not from your personal preferences down. If you don't start from the text, you won't get anywhere. Martin wants us to react to what he has specifically written rather than to any assumptions that we might happen to make about the world he has created.

:agree: :like:

I'm personally at the point with anti-R+L=J arguments that I only skim them to see if they're offering something new. If not, I can't be bothered to get involved anymore. Most of them are silly, to put it mildly.