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Robb and the Red Wedding


Vergo

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"Oh great, another scarred newbie who can't get over the fact that the Red Wedding happened, and came to the forums to cry about it. This is so one decade ago."

I bet that's what most of you are thinking, but honestly, please hear me out because I just need to present my viewpoint on what happened here and how I took it, especially when it came to Robb, and get some more opinions on it to see if I'm alone in my thinking.

I started reading the books just last summer, when a friend suggested it to me. I'm really big into Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings, so ASoIaF seemed right down my ally. I've loved all that I've read so far, but I've just had to put ASoS down for a while because of this "Red Wedding". I don't know how many other people have been doing this, but I've been reading the books, then immediately watching the TV season based on it. I'm really enjoying it, as the actors put a face to the names I read about in the book, and everything seems more realistic when it comes to imagining sounds of the world and people's voices.

While reading ACoK, I really started to like Robb. Or more, I liked what he seemed to stand for. Ned's death was a huge shocked, of course, but it made immediate sense how it was absolutely neccessary to progress the plot and start the actual conflict. What Robb stood for, in my mind while first reading that book, was justice. Or, more like revenge. Robb doesn't ever get a POV, but that made him all the more interesting to me. It seemed like he was the one really fighting the "bad guys" and taking it to them, while other POVs are much more minute when it came to impacting the grand scheme of things. It didn't matter that Ned was dead: His eldest son, the embodiment of himself, was avenging him. It didn't matter that Sansa was captured in King's Landing; Robb was coming, and he was winning. It didn't matter that Jon was having such a hard time up north; Robb was the hope of the Stark family, really making a difference down south. I always felt that Robb was how the Stark's were going to rise again, and that he was doing a great job doing it.

Now, add the second season of the HBO series to that. Robb gets WAY more screentime than the books would suggest he should get. And he's a badass. With a wolf. They make him out to EXACTLY the image I had of him in my mind; the pride and joy of the Starks, ready to take everyone who did his family wrong down. This makes me, for some reason, think that Robb is the hero of the whole thing, and I promote him as such in my mind. So the Red Wedding thing was a big deal when I finally got to it.

It seemed to me like Martin was just hell-bent on proving that the good guys won't win. And he was willing to get as bloody as he physically could, so he could scream "NO ONE IS SAFE, I'M SUCH A UNIQUE AUTHOR BECAUSE I KILL EVERYONE THE READER LIKES RARARAR". I mean, I'll probably get over this, and I know I kind of set this up for myself because of how I was ignorant to the clues he put in the previous book, but that doesn't soften the blow for much. I guess it's just really hard for me to accpet that the Starks really have lost.

And what they did with the wolf head.... ugh. I think that's the cherry on top of what makes this so unsettling for me. Robb, the one who was supposed to fill his father's place and take up the honor of the north, insulted by having his precious wolf's head sewed to his dead corpse. Just..... god, that's more than insult to injury. That's just.... ugh. I'll remember this for the rest of my life because of that one image in my head.

So, I'm taking a break from ASoS for a little while. That just seemed like too much, and I'll have to accept it first.

Anyone else feel the same way, specifically about Robb? I know a few other major characters bite the dust in the book, but really, his impacted me the most. And consolidation to keep reading would be appreciated too. :frown5:

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Hi there,

I am relatively new on the forums too.

I guess you have the same feelings about the Red Wedding as did all the Harry Potter fans when they read book 6 and a nasty death happened (don't want to spoil anyone if you are still reading the Harry Potter books). It's shocking and it feels like the end of a narrative, when you just have to lick your wounds and come to terms with the fact that a character has died.

One encouraging thing is: in books, characters tend to be remembered a lot more than people in real life. So you will probably get to hear more about Robb and build him a mememto in your memory.

Now, about whether and when you should read on. I don't want to tell you anything about what's going on in the books (I have finished A Storm of Swords, and am halfway through A Feast for Crows now). A Storm of Swords was my favourite book: I think it's the book where we see the best and worst in a lot of characters. It feels like the centrepoint of all the stories up to now, in some sense. I also want to share something with you: once, when I was a little girl, there was this Mortal Kombat series that I was watching. They only made one season of it, because it wasn't popular enough. But, as is usually the case in series, the last episode was a bad episode: the main characters were all defeated, and my favourite character was enslaved. The series had a negative ending, a bad ending. The idea was, I now understand, that the first episode of the second series would clear out that this episode had just been a dream of one of the other characters, so it hadn't been real. But of course, they never made the second series, so all I was left with was this bad ending. The consequence was that for a long time I just felt beaten, and I didn't take up watching another series until a long long time after.

I guess this is the same for you. If you stop reading and watching now, all you will be left with, is this bad "ending" to your reading. You'll just remember this death all the time, as an ending to this book, and it's something that just doesn't go away. You won't be able to read books for the fear something bad is going to happen to your favourite character. So I guess what I'm saying is: you should read this to the end. Maybe something good will come of it.

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Oh dude the second half of storm of swords is the best part of any of the books :D it's just 100% awesome.

Anyway, on topic. All I can say is this;

Jeor Mormont: Do you think your brother’s war is more important than ours?

Jon Snow: No.

Jeor Mormont: When dead men and worse come hunting for us in the night, you think it matters who sits on the Iron Throne?

Jon Snow: No.

Jeor Mormont: Good. Because I want you and your wolf with us when we ride out beyond the Wall tomorrow.

Jon Snow: Beyond the Wall?

Jeor Mormont: I’ll not sit meekly by and wait for the snows. I mean to find out what’s happening. The Night’s Watch will ride in force, against the Wildlings, the White Walkers and whatever else is out there. And we will find Benjen Stark, alive or dead. I will command them myself, so I’ll only ask you once Lord Snow: are you a brother of the Night’s Watch, or a bastard boy who wants to play at war?

The name of the series is A Song of Ice and Fire!

Ice and Fire!
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Yes, Robb does fit the mold of a romantic hero. But even on my first read I couldn't help but scratch my head at some of his decisions. He knew how to win battles, and was a good guy, but that didn't make him fit to be King

Now that I've had time to think about it, I'm seeing more and more the logic behind the concept of the Red Wedding, mostly thanks to the awesome analysis that's on this board about GRRM's style of writing and the message he's trying to get across. Yeah, Robb fit the hero role perfectly to me, but to GRRM, that for no reason gives him a pass on the mistakes he made, some of them rather huge.

To me, it was just the equivalent of Harry getting killed by Voldemort in Goblet of Fire, or Frodo not making it past the half-way mark in The Two Towers. I just really need to adjust to the gritty realism that these books have.

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I'm pretty sure I cried after reading the Red Wedding. Robb had every quality I loved in Ned. I was just so tired of seeing Starks die I thought I couldn't take it anymore. However, as they say, it gets better.

There are still a lot of characters worth rooting for and it just gets so damn good that you'd be missing out if you stopped here.

Dry your tears and press on. That's what I did.

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But yes, OP, I feel your pain. I was convinced that Robb had plot armor thick enough to survive the series. The Freys' betrayal was spoiled for me, but I never expected Robb to actually die. And yes, I HATED what they did with Robb and Cat's bodies afterwards. It just felt like Martin kicking us while we were already down.

But trust me when I tell you this, the second half of ASOS is an absolute must-read. While the RW is the most depressing event in the book, many huge moments are still left to happen, and trust me when I tell you this, almost all of them are uplifting moments. I would suggest that you take a break for maybe a day or two, but get right back to reading it. If you stick with it after the RW, it's well worth it, . Believe the hype of the entirety of ASOS. After you finish the final chapter, you won't regret it. At all.

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I like the fact that GRRM can do this. I was shocked myself but not surprised. With other books where the hero is in grave danger you think "Nah he won't die" so it would just be a case of how is he going to get out of this one? The fact that you don't know what to think makes this series awesome.

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well, as for likeability, Robb is likeable enough. But he has as many flaws as anyone else. Carstark gave his sons to Robb and his cause. They are related. Carstark is 100% behind Robb. They killed a Lannister of no significance. So send him home from the war. He won't get any more honor from battle. But no. Hang all the people involved? Take Carstark's head? Alienate his house? Marry Westerling, alienating the twins? 12 knights for 1000? He said himself he made a right mess of things.

He doesn't make the greatest decisions. In my opinion Ned's death was far more unjust. But, you know, it's just the start.

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Ned made a pretty big botch of things too in KL, Robb is truly his fathers son, armors himself in his honor but neglects the bigger picture and that other people are not as honorable, just or forgiving as themselves.

When I was reading the RW (I am doing a SoS re-read and just read the chapter last night) did anyone else find it ironic that right before they cut Cat's neck they made a statement that she had gone mad b/c she killed Jingle Bell, but nobody thought that Lord Frey was mad for creating and carrying out the idea of the RW...I mean, if anything smacks of madness it's a 90 year old man so bent on revenge of a lost betrothal that he has thousands underneath his roof and under guest rights, put to the sword...

The other thing is,did anyone else feel that perhaps not all the Frey's were happy/on board with what they were doing? I mean, some of them seem very disgruntled about the task they have to carry out and I'm not sure if there attitudes were because they hated Stark, or if their attitudes were there because they didn't want to follow through with the RW but felt they had to.

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I had the same reaction as many. Like the OP, Robb was the epitome of the revenge I wanted for the Starks, and was the hero of the story for me at that point. I started the series when book 2 was released, and kept waiting for said vengance. There is still a partial hole in the closet door where I threw my 1st edition hardcover over the RW, swearing not to read another page. It reminds me not to get too attached to any one character (for what good it does).

I held out for about 2 or 3 days before I was compelled to read on.

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The RW was awful and heart breaking. I dread watching it on the show,it is going to be tough (there will be floods of tears from me again) and that song really makes me cringe now. Do keep reading ASOS, it does get better and i bet you're getting curious about what what happens next, its a very addictive series!

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The Freys suck, and things get shittier and shittier for them as things go on. Robb was too epic a hero that early in the series. He was my favorite character because he was doing what was right, even though he had flaws. I was SUPER pissed when they killed Robb, but I see why it had to happen for the series. The Starks have not lost, that doesn't mean they will win, but they are certainly still in the fight, just not in the way you think. Also the Freys suck...and they are slowly getting their due. There are still plenty of good guys around to take up Robb's place when the time is right, they are just hard pressed for a long time. Also the Freys SUCK!

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Robb let himself be crowned as an usurper. Robb broke his oath to Walder Frey. Robb sent Theon to the Iron Islands. Robb chose to negotiate with Renly over Stannis. In my personal opinion you have become fond of and attached to the character as I myself was to Sirius Black in the Harry Potter books. In reality Robb has nothing to do with the big picture and in actuality rarely appears in the books and he chose to make every mistake he made. The fact is not that good guys don't win I think Robb's death was more to show that hes still a boy as well as the what the weight of HONOR will do. It kind of mixes with what Jamie Lannister says about swearing so many oaths. Obey your father, your liege lord, your king, ect. If the interests between your oath collide where does your honor lead you?

I believe it's to show why the world isn't fair especially from a political view. That those who always try to do "good" end up destroying themselves.

You also mention how Robb's storyline is justice or revenge. It is more vengeance, he SEEKS justice but in reality it's vengeance.Justice would imply he would side with Stannis. Stannis is the story line of justice. It is continued from Ned's story line of justice. You can see the more Stannis let's go of his honor [which he holds in high regard as much as Ned did] the more he seems to do well. Killing his brother, resorting to black magic, defying the gods ect.

If I was you I would read on. You will find solace for the Red Wedding, i can not say anymore without spoilers but reading on will show you just how insignificant Robb was to the story. I know I am bering very critical here but I too felt the same way as you about Robb until I re-read the book and realized his death has been thrown in our face since book 1.

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well, as for likeability, Robb is likeable enough. But he has as many flaws as anyone else. Carstark gave his sons to Robb and his cause. They are related. Carstark is 100% behind Robb. They killed a Lannister of no significance. So send him home from the war. He won't get any more honor from battle. But no. Hang all the people involved? Take Carstark's head? Alienate his house? Marry Westerling, alienating the twins? 12 knights for 1000? He said himself he made a right mess of things.

He doesn't make the greatest decisions. In my opinion Ned's death was far more unjust. But, you know, it's just the start.

Karstark :thumbsup:

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I threw my book down after the RW. I had been clued in that Rob would die, but I didn't know when it was. It was such a shock, and I absolutly loved Catelyn. I felt she was the most interesting character in the series and they killed her as well. I always thought that she was GRRM's inner mother, and he killed her, what a bastard! Anyway, I stopped reading for about 8 hours before I picked it back up and moved on. I can't wait to see it onscreen.

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Maybe I'm a monster... but since a lot of people said Feast and Dance weren't that great, I was contemplating stopping after reading A Storm of Swords... until The Red Wedding. I loved it. That was the moment I knew I would be reading Feast, Dance, and any other book George ever writes for this series. I thought it was truly exquisite, probably the greatest scene in anything I've ever read or seen.

Of course it's depressing and tragic and brutal, and nearly unbearable... but that's great powerful drama.

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