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Robb and the Red Wedding


Vergo

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I just reread the Red Wedding; and just like the first time it's such a hard read. It's so tragic what happened to Rob and Catelyn. Roose Bolton is one evil treacherous bastard, and the Late Walder Frey is such a despicable human being. The northermen did not deserve to be massacred at a wedding (they are fighting men). And poor Arya was so close to finally seeing her mother again...damn. Well at least the Lannisters get paid back in the end, well most of them. Hopefully in the next book both Roose Bolton and the Late Walder Frey receive justice for their crimes.


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I cried while reading this chapter. Someone had spoiled me about Robb, but I didn't know about Catelyn. It was just tragic. I didn't think I'd be able to handle reading about Robb's death, but then realizing Catelyn would die, too... and then reading this:





"It hurts so much," she thought. "Our children, Ned, all our sweet babes. Rickon, Bran, Arya, Sansa, Robb… Robb… please, Ned, please, make it stop, make it stop hurting…"


Oh God, just typing that made me cry now. The only thing I'm glad for is that I didn't have to read about Grey Wind's death, otherwise I would've lost it completely. I'm one of those people who takes animals dying way worse than people dying.



However, you know, that's the Starks. They want to be good, honorable people, they're loyal, kind hearted and just. I don't think Robb was stupid, or "brought it on himself." He was his father's son and his honor got him killed just like it got Ned killed.



I just wish we'd gotten a Robb POV at some point. An epilogue, a prologue. Something to make us understand his relationship with Jeyne more, because while on the show I absolutely bought 100% that he was madly in love with Talisa, in the books I honestly didn't think he was that in love with Jeyne, and that he only married her for honor (and then kinda came to love her, you know).



Also, Robb was only 16 and surrounded by people who failed to teach him how to play the game, starting with his parents.



Robb would've been better off as a Martell, idk. Also, I don't know why they didn't marry him off to Margaery, like, the second they were born.


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I cried while reading this chapter. Someone had spoiled me about Robb, but I didn't know about Catelyn. It was just tragic. I didn't think I'd be able to handle reading about Robb's death, but then realizing Catelyn would die, too... and then reading this:

"It hurts so much," she thought. "Our children, Ned, all our sweet babes. Rickon, Bran, Arya, Sansa, Robb… Robb… please, Ned, please, make it stop, make it stop hurting…"

Oh God, just typing that made me cry now. The only thing I'm glad for is that I didn't have to read about Grey Wind's death, otherwise I would've lost it completely. I'm one of those people who takes animals dying way worse than people dying.

However, you know, that's the Starks. They want to be good, honorable people, they're loyal, kind hearted and just. I don't think Robb was stupid, or "brought it on himself." He was his father's son and his honor got him killed just like it got Ned killed.

I just wish we'd gotten a Robb POV at some point. An epilogue, a prologue. Something to make us understand his relationship with Jeyne more, because while on the show I absolutely bought 100% that he was madly in love with Talisa, in the books I honestly didn't think he was that in love with Jeyne, and that he only married her for honor (and then kinda came to love her, you know).

I didn't get that impression. I thought he did fall in love with her. There's nothing to suggest he didn't - and he talks about love when he's first trying to explain and justify himself to Catelyn, comparing what she did (releasing Jaime to get her daughers back) to what he did. He was trying to subtly prepare her for telling her what he did, so he said something like "I know what it's like to do something rash because you love someone so much..." (quote by memory). I don't think we were supposed to think he was outright lying. He later says it was honorable to marry her, but this was a reason he was giving his mother, the one that would sound better to her, presumably, then simply "I broke my vows to the f

Freys because I fell in love".

I think both of these things were in the mix. If they hadn't slept together, he may have just suppressed his attraction and gone on to do his 'duty' and wouldn't have married her. But if he had slept with her but didn't love her, I don't think he would have married her, either. It would be incredibly stupid to marry her just because he slept with her, if he didn't love her.

I don't know why people insist that he didn't love her and married her just for 'honor' (as if that's somehow a nobler motivation or a better reason to marry than love). That interpretation actually makes Robb look like a complete moron. As far as his 'honor', goes, it was about the honor of marrying someone he slept with vs the honor f not breaking his promise to the Freys - so, he was going to have his 'honor' smeared either way, except the latter was public and with far reaching consequences.

When it comes to Jeyne's 'honor', it didn't really need protection. She was not pregnant. If he had knocked her up, her reputation would've suffered if they hadn't married, so it would have made sense for him to try to protect her reputation. But as she was not pregnant and it was not common knowledge that they had slept together, they could have just kept it a secret. It's not like anyone was going to randomly subject Jeyne to a virginity tests. Jeyne would have eventually married some other noble, although probably not as highborn. At worst, her husband could be a little peeved that she hadn't been a virgin, but I doubt that anyone was going to raise a stink about it and just embarrass himself and create a conflict with the Westerlings. That's if he even was sure about it - she could always offer the explanation about highborn girls breaking their hymens through horse-riding, which Cersei mentions in AFFC. Cersei herself was definitely not a virgin on her wedding night - and years before that - although Robert was probably too drunk to notice anyway, if he even cared (he didn't even quite notice she was Cersei rather than Lyanna!). And when it comes to political marriages between "noble" houses, woman's family is far more important than her virginity or even reputation; Amarei Frey had no trouble marrying a Lannister, even though she was known for sleeping around.

In short - her reputation was in no danger as long as they didn't advertise their relationship, her future was not in danger, and he had no reason to marry her to protect her - unless he loved her and she loved him, it would have been better to let her be married to someone else. Especially since Robb believed that he was putting her in danger with this marriage, and that her family would incur the vengeful rage of the Lannisters as well as Freys - he told Cat "Jeyne stands to lose everything, too, for her love for me"!

Catelyn herself seemed to assume that Robb loved Jeyne.

The difference is that the show portrays it as a conventional romance, all epic, immediate attraction, she's a perfect super-hot exotic super-competent feisty 'strong' woman etc. etc., they decide that their love is more important than everything blah blah blah... As if the showrunners took it literally that poor Jeyne wasn't special enough for Robb to lose a kingdom over.

In the book, it was more realistic, both of them seemed to be people who belonged to their time and place and society (while Talisa and her romance with Robb seemed so out of place, as it they came from some 21st century romance movie). They are both teenagers who had never been in love or had sex before, she took care of him when he was wounded, they were probably attracted to each other, they shared a big emotional moment when he heard about Bran and Rickon and this made Robb more vulnerable and drew them closer together, there were teenage hormones at work, and they slept together - and your first love and losing your virginity is a big deal. Lots of people fall in love like that, due to circumstances that make them share something emotional together, I don't see why that would mean it's not real love. Doesn't mean that they were perfect for each other or anything, but how many people are?

Look at Jon, people believe he was madly in love with Ygritte because we have his POV, but if you look at how their relationship came to be, it looks much worse than Robb and Jeyne. He didn't even find her all that attractive at first, he was captured and basically didn't have any other choice but to have sex with her since she was protecting his life (dubious consent at best), and only fell in love with her after they had had sex a bunch of times.

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  • 2 weeks later...
  • 2 weeks later...

In reply to Annara Snow; Robb married her not because of love, but because of his honor. He may well have loved her when he married her but even if he did love her he would have put that aside if he had not of slept with her. it would have been him dishonoring Jeyne and her house if he had of bedded her and then not married her, and Robb, like Ned, doesn't care for keeping secrets (barring Ned's secret about Jon's parentage). Robb is just doing the honorable, and stupid, thing by marrying her after he has bedded her as much for his own honor as hers. Love between the two would have little bearing on the marriage itself, Robb not wanting to dishonor her would have been a bigger factor in their wedding.


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In reply to Annara Snow; Robb married her not because of love, but because of his honor. He may well have loved her when he married her but even if he did love her he would have put that aside if he had not of slept with her. it would have been him dishonoring Jeyne and her house if he had of bedded her and then not married her, and Robb, like Ned, doesn't care for keeping secrets (barring Ned's secret about Jon's parentage). Robb is just doing the honorable, and stupid, thing by marrying her after he has bedded her as much for his own honor as hers. Love between the two would have little bearing on the marriage itself, Robb not wanting to dishonor her would have been a bigger factor in their wedding.

I've already debunked that theory in my previous post. Robb had no reason to marry her in order for her house not be to 'dishonored', all he needed to do was to keep his mouth shut about the fact he slept with her. He also believed he was getting her and her family in grave danger by marrying her. And since he married her shortly after bedding her, there was no time for him to "fall out of love" and do it just for a rigidly defined "honor".

The only thing I agree with is that he wouldn't have married her if he hadn't bedded her, he would tell himself he couldn't allow his feelings to affect his duty; but I also think he wouldn't have married her if he didn't love her.

I'd love to know what you base your opinion on, since Robb talks multiple times about loving Jeyne, and never suggests that he doesn't love her. It seems that you, and many others, for some reason chose to ignore huge parts of the text in order to believe that Robb didn't do anything out of love, as if romantic love is somehow a low, innoble motivation and anything else is better, and as if being a moron who throws everything away for a rigidly understood idea of honor would be better. Robb, like Ned, and Cat, and his aunt Lyanna, does do things for love. Cat released Jaime out of love for her daughters (which both she and Robb compare to Robb marrying Jeyne). Ned's last act was to smear his "honor" and lie, confessing "treason" and calling Joffrey the rightful heir, out of love for his daughter, and he also lied to Robert on his deathbed out of love, because he couldn't bring himself to hurt Robert.

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Well, I have to say Robb wasn't my my favourite character but yes, it was awfull what they did to him (and another brave northmen) BUT this death also gives you advise how realistic this series is. It doesn't matter how good guy you are, you have to always be careful because bad guys are bad but more clever than you. On the other hand - it was also death of another Stark and I hope (really really hope) that in the end there will be at last one of them who will survive (better all of them).


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I've already debunked that theory in my previous post. Robb had no reason to marry her in order for her house not be to 'dishonored', all he needed to do was to keep his mouth shut about the fact he slept with her. He also believed he was getting her and her family in grave danger by marrying her. And since he married her shortly after bedding her, there was no time for him to "fall out of love" and do it just for a rigidly defined "honor".

The only thing I agree with is that he wouldn't have married her if he hadn't bedded her, he would tell himself he couldn't allow his feelings to affect his duty; but I also think he wouldn't have married her if he didn't love her.

I'd love to know what you base your opinion on, since Robb talks multiple times about loving Jeyne, and never suggests that he doesn't love her. It seems that you, and many others, for some reason chose to ignore huge parts of the text in order to believe that Robb didn't do anything out of love, as if romantic love is somehow a low, innoble motivation and anything else is better, and as if being a moron who throws everything away for a rigidly understood idea of honor would be better. Robb, like Ned, and Cat, and his aunt Lyanna, does do things for love. Cat released Jaime out of love for her daughters (which both she and Robb compare to Robb marrying Jeyne). Ned's last act was to smear his "honor" and lie, confessing "treason" and calling Joffrey the rightful heir, out of love for his daughter, and he also lied to Robert on his deathbed out of love, because he couldn't bring himself to hurt Robert.

Just read a Tyrion POV where Ser Kevan says, "He chose the girl's honor over his own, once he had deflowered her, he had no other course."

To say that Robb, being his father's son (which has been commented upon numerous times), would just lie, cover it up and pretend it never happened is ludicrous. In my opinion.

Well, I have to say Robb wasn't my my favourite character but yes, it was awfull what they did to him (and another brave northmen) BUT this death also gives you advise how realistic this series is. It doesn't matter how good guy you are, you have to always be careful because bad guys are bad but more clever than you. On the other hand - it was also death of another Stark and I hope (really really hope) that in the end there will be at last one of them who will survive (better all of them).

The realism of the books makes it the best fantasy fiction I've ever read! Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli would have died 100x each if they were put in Westeros!

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Well, if we put it in the way that Robb had no other option when he slept with her then he shouldn't sleep with her - he knew what he was doing, right? I know that he was still young etc. but he was also that undefeatable warrior so he should know the possible consequences (and he knew them). But yeah, what Lord Frey did was pretty awful. I hope that some "accident" will happen to him.


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Look robb wanted to be Ned simple. In my views just because he was a honest as a saint he expected other ppl to be the same which lead to his Big down fall to all sadness. I LOVE the starks because of what they represent as a image.

Face it he was the spitting image of What a hero should be but not a image of a king. He still has immature outbursts etc at times

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TBH, when I first started watching the series on HBO, I was sure I wouldn't watch past Lady's death in S1 (AGOT in the books). I decided to go online to spoil myself, using the wiki articles to find out what happened in Dany's arc further on, since I became invested in her character's on-screen story rather quickly. What I found out made me SURE that I wasn't going to watch any further. After all, Dany loses her husband and baby in one fell swoop? Ned kills his daughter's wolf, his men get slaughtered, and then he's killed right in front of his daughters' eyes? I was sure this was a horrible series that I would never like, and walked away from it for a good long while.

But my mother kept watching, and she really loved it despite the horrors. She coaxed me back into watching it, and by the time I got through the Season 1 finale, my curiosity was reignited. I needed to know what happened next. So I picked up the books and started reading.

The Red Wedding was a nasty surprise, for certain. I had to set the books down for a while, just as you've done: not because of any investment in Robb's character on my part necessarily, but because of Grey Wind and Catelyn and the way that the entire event unfolded. But I needed to keep going, because my curiosity wasn't sated yet. I wanted to know how other characters reacted to it. I wanted to know if the Freys and Boltons would eventually get their comeuppances. And I absolutely HAVE to know how the arc about the Others will fit in with the fight for the Iron Throne.

So I kept reading, and I'll keep reading. I encourage you to keep reading, too: mourn for Robb with his siblings and watch for signs that his betrayers will get what's coming to them. There are some huge events coming as you read further, and if you can push past this part, I think you'll be surprised at how engaged the books can keep you... no matter how many people GRRM kills off.

(BTW, killing off characters the fans adore isn't unique, and GRRM certainly isn't the first on page or screen. Ask a Star Wars fan in their 30s or 40s how they felt when Vader offed Obi Wan in Episode IV.)

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