Grand Tyrell Conspiracy Theory

[Ralphius targaryen]

I also agree with you up to a point. I believe that margs maidenhead is broken ur either to horseback riding or finger blasting herself. Lol laugh all you will but she was a horny maiden with renly, yet to no avail couldn't get laid. Also I believe aurane waters is a stannis supporter, since he was originally even before renlys banner men flocked to him. An also I believe that the high sparrow saw right through osneys bullshit confession. I think an upcoming trial of this magnitude for marg has to make sure it has a credible witness so If there's a hint of suspicion from the high sparrow, what else would make osney tell the truth

[Gendels Children]

^^^^FINGER BLASTING HER SELF! HAR, HAR!!

[julyleo]

I completely buy into this theory though I think the high septon was more of a wildcard,everything for the most part plays like a well thought out plot. If nothing else the tyrells are pragmatic.

[vivatforx]

I love that this thread has been debated for something like seven years. That's pretty rad.

It seems way back in 2006, people were ready to fight tooth and nail against something that seems painfully obvious. Cersei is the most unreliable narrator in the entire series in my opinion. She cannot think beyond the scope of her desires. She thinks that intrigues are the same as policy creation. She is prone to flattery and sees life in black and white terms. She bungled her way into some seriously massive mistakes.

But to think she did it all without the Tyrells moving against her just means you take these books at face value. Which is fine I guess. But you aren't getting the whole story if you are.

It is clear to me Teana and Waters are spies. It is also clear that at every step of the way Mace and crew are trying to create a power base in KL that squeezes Cersei out. Twyin was on board with them on this point, and was even willing to help them get her out of KL. What, because Tywin died that somehow stopped? Especially when Cersei was behaving in a politically erratic way. No, they used their spies to figure out what she was up to and respond accordingly.

I also do not accept Loras' fate until I see it with mine own eyes. That's my right as a consumer of fiction. I don't need to give you reasons why.

I do not think the OP is perfect, but there are enough kernels of truth in it. I think this goes back to ACOK and LF and the QoT's relationship.

My biggest problem is with the statement that Cersei raped Teana. What a load of crap that is. Since when does saying, "you can do anything you want to me," being totally physically ready for sex (her Myrish swamp wasn't really a swamp, kids), having a screaming orgasm, and then offering to pleasure your assailant sound like a rape case? Oh right, it doesn't. Only the mayor of the friendzone mistakes rough sex for a rape. That line should be deleted. It hurts the OP's credibility. If you make that kind of mistake, how many others are you making?

[Lost_in_the_Seven_Kingdoms]

I don't believe Loras is injured at all. I can't remember where I heard this theory, but I buy it. Someone disguised as Loras was injured in the attack.

[The guy from the Vale]

I don't believe Loras is injured at all. I can't remember where I heard this theory, but I buy it. Someone disguised as Loras was injured in the attack.

I don't even think that. There is only one source for that rumor: Aurane Waters. It's far from clear that anything like that even happened, if Waters really is a Tyrell ally.

[Daena the Defiant]

I love that this thread has been debated for something like seven years. That's pretty rad.

[...]

It is clear to me Teana and Waters are spies. It is also clear that at every step of the way Mace and crew are trying to create a power base in KL that squeezes Cersei out. Twyin was on board with them on this point, and was even willing to help them get her out of KL. What, because Tywin died that somehow stopped? Especially when Cersei was behaving in a politically erratic way. No, they used their spies to figure out what she was up to and respond accordingly.

Two Things - I love the use of the word 'rad.' It makes me happy and reminds me of my misspent youth. Also, I am in total agreement with your points. That is all.

[SelaBela]

I really enjoyed the OP, and agree with most of what you've said. I will just mention that when Aurane Waters and Loras Tyrell are both more alert than everyone else when news of Iron Born attacking the reach comes in.. I always assumed that was because they were having teh secks, and were already very much awake. :leer:

[The Crow's Third Eye]

I agree that Taena is most likely a Tyrell spy, and that Waters WAS a spy, although now I think he has just gone rogue, wants to jump ship and get out of the Game.

This theory is great, love it. Really great work. I have to say that I dont think Ollena is hiding.in the Kingswood, and I think Marg's maidenhead really was broken by horseriding, but the rest I agree with. Well done OP, great thread

P.S - sorry for bringing up an ancient thread, first time i have read it

[northwolves]

I agree with most of the theory. I think Margaery is still a virgin, Taena and Aurane were definitely working for the Tyrells at the time and I in no way believe Loras was injured at Dragonstone. The Tyrells are surely up to something and there is a lot of evidence to support it. In addition, I believe they had a hand in Joffrey's murder so this definitely goes along with them trying to gain more power in King's Landing.

However, I don't think the High Septon is in on even though I do believe he greatly favors the Tyrells over Cersei.

I can't wait to see what happens with this part of the story in the last two books.

[Petyr Patter]

This theory has some serious flaws.

1. Margaery Tyrell was accused of Treason. There is NO WAY the PR conscious Tyrells would have a plan that involved resulted in such an event. For starters, even the accusation damages their credibility, no matter how little evidence there is to support it. For example, Maestar Pycelle announced in front of the entire court that he had been providing Margaery moon tea. OUCH! Plus, there is always the chance the charge sticks. The last person accused of a treason he or she did not commit was summarily beheaded despite his plea bargain.
   
2. Taena knew Cersei was planning on framing the Tyrells for treason, and actually helped her plan the deceit. Knowing that the Tyrells would do almost anything to prevent Margaery from being accussed of treason, it appears they did nothing. Cersei's description of Margaery after the High Septon ceased does match someone in complete shock of events. Meaning, Taena is almost certainly not a Tyrell spy. Varys or Littlefinger make much more sense, though she could also be working for the Dornish.
   
3. It just doesn't make sense to trick someone in making a false accusation to make them look bad. It is much harder to show an accusation is false compared to making your own false accusation.
   

I think the fact the Tyrells were being cut out of power at King's Landing didn't bother them so much because longterm they controlled Tommen. "Grow Strong." Not, "attack and seize." While Mace Tyrell might not have been happy having his face slapped regarding council positions, being tasked to seize Storm's End alongside the marriage to the underage Tommen was enough of a buy in to keep his loyalty. For all their bluster, the Tyrells were never going to walk away from their best shot at seeing Mace Tyrell's grandson on the Iron Throne.

I am fervently in the camp that Cersei pretty much plotted her own doom. Oh, sure, the High Sparrow is the one who grabbed her for her crimes, but he wouldn't be a threat if Cersei hadn't murdered the previous High Septon.

That being stated, I'm sure there is some degree of Tyrell plotting and trickery, but not so much as a "grand conspiracy."

[The Crow's Third Eye]

i have a thought on loras that adds to this theory (sorry for the bump)

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/101918-another-thought-on-loras/#entry5282109

[barmyscouser]

If this theory is true It will be tough on the producers of the HBO show. Natalie Dormer is clearly playing Margaery Tyrell as a woman who's been around the block. It would be funny to see them walk that back.

It's hard to say how much of this theory I buy. I don't believe that Lady Olena is just reacting to Cercei's plays. But this is a big conspiracy that everyone would have to be in on including the Grand Septon and all his minions, Maester Pycelle and many others. I believe that that many people would hate Cercei, but someone would talk.

[barmyscouser]

If this theory is true It will be tough on the producers of the HBO show. Natalie Dormer is clearly playing Margaery Tyrell as a woman who's been around the block. It would be funny to see them walk that back.

It's hard to say how much of this theory I buy. I don't believe that Lady Olena is just reacting to Cercei's plays. But this is a big conspiracy that everyone would have to be in on including the Grand Septon and all his minions, Maester Pycelle and many others. I believe that that many people would hate Cercei, but someone would talk.

[l2 0 5 5]

It would be interesting to see Loras fight for Marg and UnGregor fight for Cersei. Ned denied Loras in GoT when he wanted to ride to Gregor's keep after the raiding. Ned denied Loras due to him seeking vengeance and not justice. Loras may yet get his chance.

I believe that the Tyrells' will be the next ones to sit the IT. Lannisters are crumbling and the flowers have the numbers and the motivation to take KL. I don't think they'll hold it long if they do. Mace is an idiot.

[MadQueenAmberTargaryen]

you've got yourself a good theory..

I think it's interesting how every time Cersei invites Taena son to come to king's landing to be with Tommen ,Taena makes excuses or changes the subject.

As for Margaery been arrest just to get Cersei..

Oh , that would be risky for her..

I think maybe that part of thier sceame was some how messed up,and didn't expect it at all..

Rememeber Margaery was in bad shape..Cold, with rags on..Crying..

Come on -that couldn't of been an act. Unless the Tyrell's plotted that situation without her knowlage..that's just cruel..But could happen.. :unsure:

I definitely noticed that too about taena's son. My theories for that are either

1. She doesn't not have a son and was using the false reference to show cersei they had common ground, appealing to her as a mother

Or

2. That she was still using her son to become close to cersei, but was a tyrell spy so she made so many excuses to keep her son as far away as she could in case she needed to drop the act

That was my suspicion the first time she dodged the invitation and then I guess it felt confirmed by the other times.

I wonder if she served her purpose or if she's really just nearby, awaiting the trial.

Also! I'm wondering if anyone has any theories about the moon tea.. Do you think margaery planted the thought or that moon tea might have some other use that no one has mentioned (as far as I noticed)? I think that if she did need it, she wouldn't be so stupid as to go to pycelle...

[RedShirt47]

How do Littlefinger and Varys fit into this theory (if at all)?

LF was part of the Tyrell plot to poison Joffrey. So he is involved with them but was that a one off alliance so that LF could get Sansa?

When we last see Varys he is dressed as a Septon or Sparrow, so could be involved in the Faith's new found power.

Are either of these aiding / guiding the Faith or are they both simply using the Faith for their own ends (going along for the ride).

[Skinchanging Sweetrobin]

This theory has some serious flaws.

1. Margaery Tyrell was accused of Treason. There is NO WAY the PR conscious Tyrells would have a plan that involved resulted in such an event. For starters, even the accusation damages their credibility, no matter how little evidence there is to support it. For example, Maestar Pycelle announced in front of the entire court that he had been providing Margaery moon tea. OUCH! Plus, there is always the chance the charge sticks. The last person accused of a treason he or she did not commit was summarily beheaded despite his plea bargain.

Taena knew Cersei was planning on framing the Tyrells for treason, and actually helped her plan the deceit. Knowing that the Tyrells would do almost anything to prevent Margaery from being accussed of treason, it appears they did nothing. Cersei's description of Margaery after the High Septon ceased does match someone in complete shock of events. Meaning, Taena is almost certainly not a Tyrell spy. Varys or Littlefinger make much more sense, though she could also be working for the Dornish.

It just doesn't make sense to trick someone in making a false accusation to make them look bad. It is much harder to show an accusation is false compared to making your own false accusation.

I think the fact the Tyrells were being cut out of power at King's Landing didn't bother them so much because longterm they controlled Tommen. "Grow Strong." Not, "attack and seize." While Mace Tyrell might not have been happy having his face slapped regarding council positions, being tasked to seize Storm's End alongside the marriage to the underage Tommen was enough of a buy in to keep his loyalty. For all their bluster, the Tyrells were never going to walk away from their best shot at seeing Mace Tyrell's grandson on the Iron Throne.

I am fervently in the camp that Cersei pretty much plotted her own doom. Oh, sure, the High Sparrow is the one who grabbed her for her crimes, but he wouldn't be a threat if Cersei hadn't murdered the previous High Septon.

That being stated, I'm sure there is some degree of Tyrell plotting and trickery, but not so much as a "grand conspiracy."

This is a very good point. Dragging Margaery through the mud is a big risk.

All we really know is that Taena and Aurene Waters were not to be trusted. The connections to the Tyrells in basically a husband who is from the Riverlands for Taena and flirting with a Tyrell for Waters. Not much.

Really, anyone could be pulling the strings of these two.

[Heisenburguer]

How do Littlefinger and Varys fit into this theory (if at all)?

LF has the Ketllebacks if I'm not mistaken. And he plotted with Olena to kill Joffrey. LF does have a hand in all of it, he even said. He was planning to remove Cersei, but he would have to wait 4~5 years carefully placing pieces before finally striking. He then tells how Cersei is acting very stupidly and will bring doom to herself much sooner.

[Mithras]

This theory is very old and lacks necessary connections from ADwD. After ASoS, Varys left the scene and started to weave his webs in secresy. AFfC showed the crumbling of the Great Western Alliance, which was faster than LF had anticipated. The Sparrow movement and the High Sparrow are responsible of Cersei's downfall in which she dragged the Tyrells with her.

While these were happening in Westeros, we have Illyrio moving pieces in Essos; the GC, Griff and Dany (if she took the 13 ships offered by Xaro and left Meereen) were all destined to meet in Volantis and sail to Westeros.

Within this frame, Varys seems to be the mastermind behind the sparrow movement and the High Sparrow. His purpose is to create chaos and create it fast to pave the way for fAegon.

Therefore, Cersei will win her trial and Margaery will be founded guilty. As a result, the Tyrells will fight the Faith Militant and they will be seen as going against the gods, as Kevan stated in the Epilogue.

Tyrells were only pawns and Varys does not need them. Their sudden destruction will create a power vacuum in the Reach and Euron is providing an unexpected and welcome instability which are all good for fAegon. He will fight the ironborn and rally the Reach Lords to his cause one by one.