The Wire: Continued

[wolverine]

My favorite small moment is Bubbles jogging up the steps from the cellar of his sisters (?) place in the series finale, about to eat dinner with his family.

I was a little disappointed that Kima never saw him in season 5 when he has recovered.

[Kouran]

Bubbles story arc to me was always the most tragic and hopeful in the whole series. It was gut wrenching to see him try and kill himself after the hot shot and see him go so far down the rabbit hole that there was almost no way for him to come back. It was truely inspiring to see him be able to be welcomed at his sisters table at the end.

[JonArryn]

Bubbles arc must have been one of the most happy endings. He basically climbs from the bottom and seem to make a pretty solid future for himself, although he probably always will be troubled by his past.

It's interesting that if you look at all the characters, most of them end up in worse positions than they started in. Both the cops and the ones on the streets, the majority gets a lot of shit.

I'd say Cutty, Bubbles and Daniels make better places for themselves. Daniels not because of where he ends up, but because he'd get rid of all the shit as a lawyer, so I think he'd be content there.

But McNulty, Bunk, Lester, Marlo, Avon, the school kids (except Namond) and everyone who dies ends up where they were or in shittier places. I guess Kima is debatable, it didn't feel like she'd have a good relationship with her son, even though she seemed to care more later.

This show is so great when you think about it. I've always felt that the song they played in the credits of every episode sounds melancholic. Like a faith in humanity that is lost or something. And the episodes often ended on a melancholic note too.

[all swedes are racist]

I have to disagree with Marlo's arc. Sure, he may not enjoy his new role "off the streets" (as his final scene shows) but he is most certainly in a better place. Say what you will about Marlo, he is easily one of the most cunning and driven characters, and has had a very clear goal for himself. While his meteoric rise may well hint at an equally meteoric fall, I feel like his almost superhuman/inhuman detachment will keep him (mostly) out of the shit. I believe we'd see Maury Levy fall before Marlo...

ETA: I do not particularly care for Marlo. In fact, I really wanna fucking hate the guy, but I think I respect him too much (respect his 'game' as it were, not necessarily him as a person...)

[Ser Greguh]

WRT the characters that actually manage to improve their station in life, though the show is quite cynical about most kinds of reform, it really does seem like Simon & co truly believe in personal reform, so characters like Bubbles and Cutty are spared the worst of the bureaucratic sinkhole and actually given a chance at betterment. I always thought that was very consistent with their willingness to cast ex-cons in meaty roles (Snoop, and also Melvin Williams, who played the Deacon, was actually the person upon whom Avon Barksdale was most closely based, are prime examples).

[delete this account pls]

I have to disagree with Marlo's arc. Sure, he may not enjoy his new role "off the streets" (as his final scene shows) but he is most certainly in a better place. Say what you will about Marlo, he is easily one of the most cunning and driven characters, and has had a very clear goal for himself. While his meteoric rise may well hint at an equally meteoric fall, I feel like his almost superhuman/inhuman detachment will keep him (mostly) out of the shit. I believe we'd see Maury Levy fall before Marlo...

ETA: I do not particularly care for Marlo. In fact, I really wanna fucking hate the guy, but I think I respect him too much (respect his 'game' as it were, not necessarily him as a person...)

I always thought the implication with Marlo was that he wouldn't be able to stay off the streets. He isn't a Stringer, he isn't interested in the legitimate world. He wants his name to ring out, he wants to be the King, and sooner or later that desire will ruin him.

[Francis Buck]

I always thought the implication with Marlo was that he wouldn't be able to stay off the streets. He isn't a Stringer, he isn't interested in the legitimate world. He wants his name to ring out, he wants to be the King, and sooner or later that desire will ruin him.

That's exactly what the implication was. That's why he leaves whatever event he was at with Levy and the politicians, only to go down on the corner and "take it over" (while, tellingly, getting injured the process -- he's not so invincible, and he's chosen the dangerous life). His whole existence is on the "corner", it's all he's interested in, and he'll likely die because of it just as so many others have.

[Shryke]

Yup. Marlo may be detached, but he very, very, very much cares about his reputation. That's pretty much the only thing he cares about.

And that drive will not let him live the legitimate life.

[Shryke]

Also, I thought McNulty ended up in a better place by the end.

[Castel]

Yup. Marlo may be detached, but he very, very, very much cares about his reputation. That's pretty much the only thing he cares about.

And that drive will not let him live the legitimate life.

I think the drive is currently competing with Levy for the right to call itself the cause of Marlo's relapse and downfall. Marlo is fucked. He doesn't have the desire for the life that Stringer wanted and he has the exact same mentality that doomed Stringer in that field (although I must wonder if it'll be more difficult to manipulate him because he doesn't have the same self-conscious attitude about his background-or does he?). Levy and his vultures will circle and nibble at him for the rest of his life. He can only hope that they realize that it's best to make him successful so they can bleed him longer. In which case he'll just feel claustrophobic and duck back into the life. Doubly fucked.

Yup. Marlo may be detached, but he very, very, very much cares about his reputation. That's pretty much the only thing he cares about.

One of the stranger and more interesting parts of his character is that he sometimes does things that seem to do nothing for his reputation. Killing that security guard? Pure spite. And no one will know. No one will care. Marlo doesn't care to see him die himself, to let him know who beat him or why this is happening. Just knowing that he's dead-and there will be no consequences- is enough. That mentality is just terrifying imo. It's a good thing he has an irrational (well, not really irrational given his situation but somewhat excessive) focus on his reputation to balance it out. Of course, sometimes he gets to have his cake and eat it, and then you get 22 bodies in the vacants.

[JonArryn]

Also, I thought McNulty ended up in a better place by the end.

Yeah, he did personally. But he'll never put his foot in a police station again. And to be crass, he has probsbly been in that place he is at the end a few years before, with Elena and the kids in the beginning. But yeah, he seem to change and get to a better place.

And from Marlo's own standpoint he doesn't get to a better position. I always hated the guy and didn't even respect him. He had no respect for human life whatsoever. At least Avon had some kind of code and restrictions. Marlo goes from being the king to a pretty low place, and if he tries to rise again they'll lock him in pretty quick.

Poot gets to a better place though. Colvin pretty much stays where he starts too.

[Pinkie Baelish]

I'm still on season 2 and have been for several months. I've finished about 7 episodes, and it's just so. fucking. SLOW. Tell me it gets better soon.

I didn't have the same problem with season 1, since it had better pacing IMO. But, 7 episodes in, there still isn't much progress apart from

D'Angelo's death :crying:

. The characters are great, but the plot just isn't as compelling as season 1. The docks just aren't that interesting IMHO.

[Castel]

And from Marlo's own standpoint he doesn't get to a better position. I always hated the guy and didn't even respect him. He had no respect for human life whatsoever. At least Avon had some kind of code and restrictions. Marlo goes from being the king to a pretty low place, and if he tries to rise again they'll lock him in pretty quick.

I see this claim a lot and I wonder:how much better than Marlo was Avon really? I mean, he never killed a security guard but what else? His code let him kill anyone else that interfered with his plans at all in order to further his destructive criminal enterprise didn't it? I can empathize more with Avon but I'm not sure how much better he's been really.

He also tortured one of Omar's accomplices and displayed him like a deer to send a message.He killed an innocent witness after the man's testimony was rendered ineffective. Marlo just seems to be a less affable Avon with an extra dose of pettiness and detachment. At what point is a code so corrosive that having one doesn't make you that much better than the opposition? How many steps away from Marlo is Avon really?

[Lummel]

...It's interesting that if you look at all the characters, most of them end up in worse positions than they started in. Both the cops and the ones on the streets, the majority gets a lot of shit...

The show is classical tragedy - meaning its all going to end badly, that ending is inevitable.

The characters who do get to escape their fate, they really have been dragged through the mill to get there. The slightest step towards a stable, happy life in the Wire has to be earnt with blood and suffering in a minimum of three seasons of pain and trouble. :laugh:

...I believe we'd see Maury Levy fall before Marlo...

Can't see that for a moment, sorry. There's a moment in Season Four when a teacher askes the drop out kids in class to write on a piece of paper where they think they'll be, can't remember if she says in ten years time or when they're thirty, anyhow and then askes all those who wrote 'dead' to put their hands up. That's Marlo. Burn bright - burn fast. Everybody hates Marlo.

Levy is grand wizard dragon of the local bar association or whatever it's called, we see him dodge the police department's best possible shot in season five. He is doomed to live out a comfortable life, fated to bear the burden of sending his children to good colleges and watching them get good jobs. The worst thing that could happen to him is that he gets divorced and losses the family house.

I'm still on season 2 and have been for several months. I've finished about 7 episodes, and it's just so. fucking. SLOW. Tell me it gets better soon.

I didn't have the same problem with season 1, since it had better pacing IMO. But, 7 episodes in, there still isn't much progress apart from

D'Angelo's death :crying:

. The characters are great, but the plot just isn't as compelling as season 1. The docks just aren't that interesting IMHO.

The opening of episode eight is fantastic :laugh:

I like season two a lot, but admittedly I like seeing the case being built up and really failing to get off the ground for a long time. Beware anyhow, there be spoilers in this thread.

I see this claim a lot and I wonder:how much better than Marlo was Avon really? I mean, he never killed a security guard but what else? ...

Even that isn't true - remember the housing cop in Season One, she was only a security guard too.

Though I suppose Avon at least had some family feeling, does Marlo have any family? Can't imagine him going to visit his catatonic uncle.

[Ouroboros]

I see this claim a lot and I wonder:how much better than Marlo was Avon really? I mean, he never killed a security guard but what else? His code let him kill anyone else that interfered with his plans at all in order to further his destructive criminal enterprise didn't it? I can empathize more with Avon but I'm not sure how much better he's been really.

He also tortured one of Omar's accomplices and displayed him like a deer to send a message.He killed an innocent witness after the man's testimony was rendered ineffective. Marlo just seems to be a less affable Avon with an extra dose of pettiness and detachment. At what point is a code so corrosive that having one doesn't make you that much better than the opposition? How many steps away from Marlo is Avon really?

Avon mellowed out after D was killed/committed suicide. He let Cutty walk away, gave him money when he asked without strings, generally tried to take care of his people. Avon had people, a nephew and sister he cared about, a brother in String, and most of what he did was about protecting that family. He didn't kill the security guard just because he could, he did it to keep D out of prison. If she flipped once she could flip again. Marlo killed the other security guard over a piece of candy, just to show he could.

[JonArryn]

I see this claim a lot and I wonder:how much better than Marlo was Avon really? I mean, he never killed a security guard but what else? His code let him kill anyone else that interfered with his plans at all in order to further his destructive criminal enterprise didn't it? I can empathize more with Avon but I'm not sure how much better he's been really.

He also tortured one of Omar's accomplices and displayed him like a deer to send a message.He killed an innocent witness after the man's testimony was rendered ineffective. Marlo just seems to be a less affable Avon with an extra dose of pettiness and detachment. At what point is a code so corrosive that having one doesn't make you that much better than the opposition? How many steps away from Marlo is Avon really?

You make some good points, and you're probably right. The thing with Avon is that he has some redeeming qualities in my eyes. He respected Cutty's decision when he didn't want to be in the game anymore (he a man today, he a man scene), he really loved D'Angelo, and he didn't wanna fight Omar on a Sunday.

But he probably has done as horrible things as Marlo to get to where he is though. He is a ruthless man, but I just felt that he has some good in him too. Marlo is a different story, hence why I said Avon has some kind of code. Avon is in no way a good guy, but he seems a little more reasonable than Marlo. But of course they're both in the same league and they both would do pretty much anything to get what tehey want.

I actually liked Avon more than Stringer during season 2 and 3. The way Stringer orders D'Angelos (my favorite chracter from the first season) death and sleeps with his wife was just despicable to me. Of course he has some redeeming qualities too, and is less ruthless than Avon. But those things were just harsh for me, and showed how egotistical Stringer really is. But that goes for Avon and Marlo too of course.

I'm still on season 2 and have been for several months. I've finished about 7 episodes, and it's just so. fucking. SLOW. Tell me it gets better soon.

I didn't have the same problem with season 1, since it had better pacing IMO. But, 7 episodes in, there still isn't much progress apart from

D'Angelo's death

. The characters are great, but the plot just isn't as compelling as season 1. The docks just aren't that interesting IMHO.

I also thought season 2 was a step down from season 1. But it gets a lot better in season 3, just hold out til' you get there and it'll really kick off. Season 2 is much like a side story, albeit a good one. Season 3 pick up the main story again and really gets going.

The show is classical tragedy - meaning its all going to end badly, that ending is inevitable.

The characters who do get to escape their fate, they really have been dragged through the mill to get there. The slightest step towards a stable, happy life in the Wire has to be earnt with blood and suffering in a minimum of three seasons of pain and trouble.

Hehe, yeah. Three seasons seem to be the minimum. Cutty had to get shot in the leg before meeting a girl too :P

[Castel]

Avon mellowed out after D was killed/committed suicide. He let Cutty walk away, gave him money when he asked without strings, generally tried to take care of his people. Avon had people, a nephew and sister he cared about, a brother in String, and most of what he did was about protecting that family. He didn't kill the security guard just because he could, he did it to keep D out of prison. If she flipped once she could flip again. Marlo killed the other security guard over a piece of candy, just to show he could.

Avon also killed the working man that Bunk and McNulty used to guilt Dee. He didn't have to do this,Dee was already acquitted. he did it for "rep".So all he does he does for his own rep, business or family. That's not a code is it? It's naked self-interest. Omar can at least credibly say that he doesn't hurt "innocents".

Avon even ate one of his own- Little Man. Then considered giving his men to the cops to get a lighter sentence (I think he went through with it and people like Savino took the hit). Then he poisoned dope and almost killed a bunch of people to escape. They were in prison, but they weren't in his game like the others. And for that matter, a code that boils down to "I can kill anyone who wanders into my sphere" is not that useful a code nor something to be held up as a positive when faced with a slightly less empathetic character.

Now, Marlo killing that man was just bafflingly evil to me, but in the long run his actions haven't seemed to be that different from Avon's. Marlo doesn't even come off as that much more destructive, despite what the last generation of rappers want people to believe. He just seems to be more ambitious and detached. I just don't want to buy into Avon and Wee-Bay's narrative here. He's just another terrible person.

[Lummel]

...I actually liked Avon more than Stringer during season 2 and 3. The way Stringer orders D'Angelos (my favorite chracter from the first season) death and sleeps with his wife was just despicable to me. Of course he has some redeeming qualities too, and is less ruthless than Avon. But those things were just harsh for me, and showed how egotistical Stringer really is. But that goes for Avon and Marlo too of course.

I also thought season 2 was a step down from season 1. But it gets a lot better in season 3, just hold out til' you get there and it'll really kick off. Season 2 is much like a side story, albeit a good one. Season 3 pick up the main story again and really gets going...

Girlfriend. I'm pretty sure that the Barksdales wouldn't want to commit their name to paper - even on a marriage license until they are making plenty of legitimate money from the property side! But, yes, morally, it's all the same.

I think season two is fairly central. To my mind its all about the spread of the drug trade. Its not something stable and unchanging as Stringer implies in Season One, it is something chaotic and growing, we see it spread deep into the dock community in season two and how almost the whole of society is implicated - the politicians are taking drug money for votes (at least that's the theory), not for bad reasons either, but in the case of the Sobotkas out of a deep hopelessness and commitment to family and community. The docks in season two is pretty much what the west side or east side were probably like ten, twenty, thirty years earlier. In Avon and especially Prop Joe we see the passing of drug barons who had some sense of commitment to family and community that is going to lead the Docks into disaster.

Season two is about the economics and social dynamic of the spread of the the drug trade while season four is about the education and socialisation of the next generation into the game.

[JonArryn]

Girlfriend. I'm pretty sure that the Barksdales wouldn't want to commit their name to paper - even on a marriage license until they are making plenty of legitimate money from the property side! But, yes, morally, it's all the same.

I think season two is fairly central. To my mind its all about the spread of the drug trade. Its not something stable and unchanging as Stringer implies in Season One, it is something chaotic and growing, we see it spread deep into the dock community in season two and how almost the whole of society is implicated - the politicians are taking drug money for votes (at least that's the theory), not for bad reasons either, but in the case of the Sobotkas out of a deep hopelessness and commitment to family and community. The docks in season two is pretty much what the west side or east side were probably like ten, twenty, thirty years earlier. In Avon and especially Prop Joe we see the passing of drug barons who had some sense of commitment to family and community that is going to lead the Docks into disaster.

Season two is about the economics and social dynamic of the spread of the the drug trade while season four is about the education and socialisation of the next generation into the game.

I know there are different themes and that they add aspects and broaden the view of society in each season.

I was thinking of the story more in terms of characters. The Sobotka's story and all the dockworkers story just runs for season 2. Other characters stories run through five seasons, more or less. That's why I said it felt kind of like a side story, I'm not saying it's less important for the whole picture, just that it focuses on telling a story in a certain amount of episodes there.

[Ouroboros]

Avon also killed the working man that Bunk and McNulty used to guilt Dee. He didn't have to do this,Dee was already acquitted. he did it for "rep".So all he does he does for his own rep, business or family. That's not a code is it? It's naked self-interest. Omar can at least credibly say that he doesn't hurt "innocents".

Avon even ate one of his own- Little Man. Then considered giving his men to the cops to get a lighter sentence (I think he went through with it and people like Savino took the hit). Then he poisoned dope and almost killed a bunch of people to escape. They were in prison, but they weren't in his game like the others. And for that matter, a code that boils down to "I can kill anyone who wanders into my sphere" is not that useful a code nor something to be held up as a positive when faced with a slightly less empathetic character.

Now, Marlo killing that man was just bafflingly evil to me, but in the long run his actions haven't seemed to be that different from Avon's. Marlo doesn't even come off as that much more destructive, despite what the last generation of rappers want people to believe. He just seems to be more ambitious and detached. I just don't want to buy into Avon and Wee-Bay's narrative here.

Nothing Avon does has just one motivation. Yes, they are self-interested, but almost all of his worst acts are also to protect D. He organised the mass-killing with the dope to keep D off drugs as much as it was to lighten his sentence. The working man almost put his nephew in prison, killing him was necessary in his eyes to send a message to the rest of the projects.

Little Man's murder was organised by Stringer, not Avon. Avon no doubt agreed or the hit wouldn't have happened, but like Stringer said Little Man was weak and fucked up in a big way, and the idea was String's originally. All those guys who had to take on years had something going for them, Avon took care of them inside jail and took care of their families on the outside. Of course they were terrified to cross him, but he also commanded loyalty because they knew he'd also provide for them, and that they'd have a position waiting when they got out. Getting time is just part of the game.

Avon is a pretty evil person, but everything he does has a reason. Usually protecting the few people he actually gives a damn about. Namely Brianna, D and Stringer.

If Avon had been as hard as Marlo, he'd have had Wee-Bey killed instead of sending him out to Philly. Even though he knew there was a chance Wee-Bey could get snatched up he wasn't willing to put him out just because he was a liability. Avon gave Orlando multiple chances to get out of the game and stay clean, chances I don't see Marlo giving out. Marlo killed Little Kevin for less than that. Hell, Marlo knew Michael wasn't a snitch but still ordered his death just in case.

Avon had his clan to protect and play patriarch with, Marlo just had Marlo.