94 replies to this topic

[locke and key]

I've done quite a few ironborn appreciation threads, however, people still just come up with this silly argument back that their raping and pillaging makes them completely evil. Now while I don't condone raping and pillaging in the real world I'm gonna quote my own thread(which can be found here:http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/80342-ironborn-appreciation-thread/), to explain why this is a silly argument to throwback thats absolutely null.

"from what I can see most people who call the ironborn savage and un-ethical support characters like stannis who cheats on his wfe with mel, burns his bannermen as sacrifices and considered kin-slaying.
Ultimately, in ASoIaF ethics are very loose(the death penalty's in place almost everywhere,boys are trained to kill from a young age as squires and then get rewarded for it with the title of being a knight, whoring and bastardy are common, most power is achieved through conquest and eradication of those who ruled before and the only real crime is to kinslay which lots of characters get away with anyway) and any character you support is gonna have done something un-ethical. even the starks who believe that the death penalty's fine as long as they do it and even their children kill or don't object when people kill or steal their bodies. so you might as well support the guys who accept this and use it to their advantage to gain somethong more than their own barren islands."

It seems very hypocritcal to me that people can call the ironborn evil when people like khal drogo are very well repsected despite the fact that he marries and rapes 13 year old girls, attacks and destroys villages and cultures like the Lhazarene and takes the survivors as slaves and whores. my belief is that westeros is a medieval society where modern world ethics are practically non-existent and the ironborn are no worse in their deeds than fan favourites like stannis baratheon and to a lesser extent the starks, and therefore the idea that they're evil because of this pillaging culture is completely in-valid.

once you get over this idea you can see that within this context of a medieval world the ironborn are a really fascinating culture like the vikings

In fact in many ways Ironborn culture is slightly further ahead than the rest of the seven kingdoms in terms of the equality they have, as GRRM shows in 3 ways:

• Because "every King is a captain, and every captain a King" as long as Iron-men are sailors and seafarers (which most of them are) they are actually very equal, as can be seen in the way that in the iron fleet even bastards like Ragnor Pyke- A member of victarions crew and later in the TWOW chapter read at Tiff he gets his own ship to captain- can rise to prominence in the iron fleet.
  
  
• In any other kingdom Asha would never have been able to become so powerful as she'd be constrained by the idea that being the daughter of a liege lord her only duty was to wed and to bed and she'd end up like lysa tully.
  
  
• The kingsmoots are the closest thing westeros has to democracy.

I know that this isn't the best written thread, I think I've repeated myself a bit and in some ways it's more of a merger of 2 threads (the one about the ironborn not being savage and the one about equality). But, I hope that I've conveyed to you the reason why it's silly to get all angry about the ironbron for doing exactly the same as respected/beloved characters like: Khal drogo, Stannis baratheon and Tormund giantsbane, in a world where there is really little to no ethics. I'm not saying you have to love the ironborn because of this but It's unfair and hyprocritcal and silly to use that argument against them unless you hate everyone who kills and pillages in which case you're left with very few people to like in the story

Edit:P.S. for some reason the forums stopped me being able to quote peoples responses which makes it very difficult to argue back against all the ironborn haters who can't see the logic behind this argument, if you do support the ironborn and/or can understand the point I'm making up here, can you back me up and argue back please

Edited by locke and key, 04 March 2013 - 05:27 PM.

[The Sullen Sellsword]

While I think the Ironborn get way too much hate, your point about Asha isn't really valid, as she is still seen as being the exception that proves the rule. Yes, she holds some power, but it is mainly with the younger generation of Ironborn. The older, conservative, more respectable (in Ironborn standards) lords/captains still look down upon her.

As for the Kingsmoot, yes, it is a form of democracy of some sort, but they only occur every so often. They are an extremely rare occurence, so their potency as evidence that the Ironborn society is somewhat more democratic is relatively weak. (The last Kingsmoot was held 2000 years ago according to the Reader)

Besides, the Mountain Clans and the Wildlings have a purer form of democracy than the Ironborn.

Off-topic: I'm not hating, I love the Ironborn. They're my favourite part of the ASoIaF mythos.

Edited by TheSullenKnight, 04 March 2013 - 03:59 PM.

[The Dornishman's Wife]

What kind of twisted strawman is that, everybody loves Khal Drogo so we have to love the Ironborn too or we're silly hypocrites? I don't love Drogo at all and even if I did, there's a big difference between having a soft spot for an individual and approving of a culture. And if we don't turn away in disgust from the Starks who support the death penalty in a medieval context, we simply have to be okay with slavery, rape, pillage und general brutish douchebaggery? Sorry, but you have to do better if you want to convince me that the Ironborn are anything other than a jerky, dishonorable and parasitic cult that needs to radically change their way of life or perish.

Not to mention that your argument that the Iron Islands are a more advanced civilisation than the 7 kingdoms is just wishful thinking:

1. OMG, the Ironborn are so open minded that a bastard rose to captain? That totally trumps the seven kingdoms where a bastard rose to Lord Admiral.
2. Asha had to fight for her independence, and in the end it got her married off to an 88 year old brute and turned fugitive.
3. Remind me again how many of those glorious kingsmoots there were in the last millenium.

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

locke and key, on 04 March 2013 - 03:33 PM, said:

when people like khal drogo are very well repsected

Where the hell did you get this idea from?

[locke and key]

The Dornishman, on 04 March 2013 - 03:53 PM, said:

What kind of twisted strawman is that, everybody loves Khal Drogo so we have to love the Ironborn too or we're silly hypocrites? I don't love Drogo at all and even if I did, there's a big difference between having a soft spot for an individual and approving of a culture. And if we don't turn away in disgust from the Starks who support the death penalty in a medieval context, we simply have to be okay with slavery, rape, pillage und general brutish douchebaggery? Sorry, but you have to do better if you want to convince me that the Ironborn are anything other than a jerky, dishonorable and parasitic cult that needs to radically change their way of life or perish.

Not to mention that your argument that the Iron Islands are a more advanced civilisation than the 7 kingdoms is just wishful thinking:

1. OMG, the Ironborn are so open minded that a bastard rose to captain? That totally trumps the seven kingdoms where a bastard rose to Lord Admiral.
2. Asha had to fight for her independence, and in the end it got her married off to an 88 year old brute and turned fugitive.
3. Remind me again how many of those glorious kingsmoots there were in the last millenium.

I'm not saying you have to love the ironborn because of this but It's unfair and hyprocritcal and silly to use that argument against them unless you hate everyone who kills and pillages in which case you're left with very few people to like in the story

1: that was just an examplr
2. she didn't fight for it balon allowed it.
3. even if there were only a few kingsmoots in a thousand years thats better than a hereditary monarchy for  that thousand years where the crwon just passes to the next male of kin

[Allyria Iliogeniti]

locke and key, on 04 March 2013 - 03:33 PM, said:

    The kingsmoots are the closest thing westeros has to democracy.

I agree on this one.

Quote

Tormund giantsbane, in a world where there is really little to no ethics

. What do you mean?

[locke and key]

Stannis Eats No Peaches, on 04 March 2013 - 03:54 PM, said:

Where the hell did you get this idea from?

I've never heard anyoen have anything bad to say about him despite the fact he does all the things they frequently abuse the ironborn for

[locke and key]

Jon, on 04 March 2013 - 03:59 PM, said:

I agree on this one.


. What do you mean?

tormund murdered an old man in queenscrown in cold blood yet people still think he's a great guy

Edited by locke and key, 04 March 2013 - 04:02 PM.

[locke and key]

locke and key, on 04 March 2013 - 03:59 PM, said:

I'm not saying you have to love the ironborn because of this but It's unfair and hyprocritcal and silly to use that argument against them unless you hate everyone who kills and pillages in which case you're left with very few people to like in the story

1: that was just an example
2. she didn't fight for it balon allowed it.
3. even if there were only a few kingsmoots in a thousand years thats better than a hereditary monarchy for  that thousand years where the crwon just passes to the next male of kin

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

locke and key, on 04 March 2013 - 04:00 PM, said:

I've never heard anyoen have anything bad to say about him despite the fact he does all the things they frequently abuse the ironborn for

Seriously? It happens every two weeks or so in a thread to do with rape etc.

[Allyria Iliogeniti]

locke and key, on 04 March 2013 - 04:01 PM, said:

tormund murdered an old man in queenscrown in cold blood yet people still think he's a great guy

Tormund is a great guy... one action doesn't erase other actions or brand a person... B

[locke and key]

TheSullenKnight, on 04 March 2013 - 03:52 PM, said:

While I think the Ironborn get way too much hate, your point about Asha isn't really valid, as she is still seen as being the exception that proves the rule. Yes, she holds some power, but it is mainly with the younger generation of Ironborn. The older, conservative, more respectable (in Ironborn standards) lords/captains still look down upon her.

As for the Kingsmoot, yes, it is a form of democracy of some sort, but they only occur every so often. They are an extremely rare occurence, so their potency as evidence that the Ironborn society is somewhat more democratic is relatively weak. (The last Kingsmoot was held 2000 years ago according to the Reader)

Besides, the Mountain Clans and the Wildlings have a purer form of democracy than the Ironborn.

Off-topic: I'm not hating, I love the Ironborn. They're my favourite part of the ASoIaF mythos.

yeh the asha stuff probably is a bit irrelevant

I'd say that they're more democratic than the wildilings who mainly I think just have an anarchy, They don't always pick the king beyond the wal it's more of a case of picking if there's gonna be a king beyond the wall than who king is. Before mance rayder they hadn't had a king for hundreds of years if I remember rightly

Can't say much about the maountain clans don't remember readung anything about how they rule themselves

[locke and key]

Stannis Eats No Peaches, on 04 March 2013 - 04:02 PM, said:

Seriously? It happens every two weeks or so in a thread to do with rape etc.

Ok then i'll take your word for it

[locke and key]

Jon, on 04 March 2013 - 04:05 PM, said:

Tormund is a great guy... one action doesn't erase other actions or brand a person... B

No, i quite like him I'm just arguing that the ironborn are no better or worse than him

[Allyria Iliogeniti]

locke and key, on 04 March 2013 - 04:09 PM, said:

No, i quite like him I'm just arguing that the ironborn are no better or worse than him

I think that they are worst mostly because of their culture (thralls and salt wives) their brutallity (Victarion beating his wife to death, the Drowned God).

[locke and key]

Jon, on 04 March 2013 - 04:13 PM, said:

I think that they are worst mostly because of their culture (thralls and salt wives) their brutallity (Victarion beating his wife to death, the Drowned God).

and I think the opposite

[The Dornishman's Wife]

locke and key, on 04 March 2013 - 04:18 PM, said:

and I think the opposite

That this makes them especially moral? Do tell. On second consideration, maybe do not tell:

locke and key, on 04 March 2013 - 04:00 PM, said:

I've never heard anyoen have anything bad to say about him despite the fact he does all the things they frequently abuse the ironborn for

Poor Ironborn, it's really shocking the perfectly acceptable things you can get "abused" for nowadays.

By the way, just to clear up a few of the "facts" you believe:

locke and key, on 04 March 2013 - 03:59 PM, said:

even if there were only a few kingsmoots in a thousand years thats better than a hereditary monarchy for  that thousand years where the crwon just passes to the next male of kin

No, there have not been "a few" kingsmoots in the last millenium, and it surprises me that you keep claiming that. In fact, the Iron Islands had a hereditary monarchy for the last two to four thousand years that passed to the next male of kin - with the exception of the last 3 hundred years, where they bowed to the IT of course. A throne by the way, that has mostly, but even in its short history not always been passed on according to directness of kinship alone (see e.g. the Great Council).

Edited by The Dornishman's Wife, 04 March 2013 - 04:24 PM.

[The Sullen Sellsword]

locke and key, on 04 March 2013 - 04:07 PM, said:

yeh the asha stuff probably is a bit irrelevant

I'd say that they're more democratic than the wildilings who mainly I think just have an anarchy, They don't always pick the king beyond the wal it's more of a case of picking if there's gonna be a king beyond the wall than who king is. Before mance rayder they hadn't had a king for hundreds of years if I remember rightly

Can't say much about the maountain clans don't remember readung anything about how they rule themselves

In the wildlings' society, a leader is chosen by his accomplishments, although no one owes him fealty. Yes, it's more anarchic than democratic, but the democracy element is still more prevalent than with the Ironborn.

As for the Mountain Clans, in AGoT Tyrion comments that their social structure is overly inefficient considering they put every single issue to the popular vote (even women can vote!) and thus waste too much time making decisions.

[Allyria Iliogeniti]

locke and key, on 04 March 2013 - 04:18 PM, said:

and I think the opposite

How? I mean, I may like The Reader and Vic but how their culture and brutallity prove that they are better than Tormund (for example)?

Edited by Jon's Queen Consort, 04 March 2013 - 04:23 PM.

[Beric Zoolander]

They aren't really savages they're more of a civilization of vikings or pirates than anything.  And I agree that theres blatant examples of similar behavior throughout most of the other kingdoms.