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How is Jaime Lannister on a redemption arc?


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#1 Fetch me a block

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 04:12 PM

I understand that people seem to think Jaime Lannister is on some sort of redemption arc just because he had his hand cut off. Let's consider a few things:
  • Jaime didn't get his hand cut off to punish him for a crime, he had it cut off for a completely unrelated reason. It's like if you kill someone and then instead of being killed back by a relation of the person you've killed, you're killed by Javier Bardem over a gambling debt. It cannot be called 'justice' or 'revenge', merely 'karma'. And it isn't even that, since instead of being unable to walk he's unable to use a sword to kill more innocent people.
  • How can you feel sorry for him? He hasn't actually changed his actions at all, just the way he thinks about himself. He thinks he is some noble warrior, but no, he's a prick who thinks he is less of a prick.
  • He expresses no regret over Bran's predicament.
  • He considers Tywin Lannister a good man.
  • He continues to defend a family with no claim to the Iron Throne.
I don't necessarily hate him. Actually, that's a lie, I do hate him, but I am just baffled as to why people think he is on a redemption arc. He said he wants to try and save Lord Eddard Stark's Daughters, but its too late for him to try and be good now. I hope he is burned.

EDIT: Perhaps the title should have been "How is Jaime Lannister a good person?" because this is the message I seem to be getting from a lot of threads that don't want Jaime killed, and actually want UnCat to die instead.

Edited by Fetch me a block, 12 March 2013 - 12:22 PM.


#2 Currawong

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 08:28 PM

Not another 'Jaime and redemption' thread!! There is already a general redemption thread started barely a few hours before you started this one - http://asoiaf.wester...emption-thread/

Rather than starting a new topic covering the same ground, perhaps your discussion could be combined with that one?

Edited by Currawong, 10 March 2013 - 08:31 PM.


#3 Tommens Cat

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 08:42 PM

My question is... Redeemed from what? He basically single handily saved the realm. Sure he pushed bran and other things but bran would not be alive for Jamie.

What is it stannis says?

A good act does not wash out the bad, nor the bad the good

#4 shk12344

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 08:54 PM

My question is... Redeemed from what?

For being an asshole and partaking in incest.

Got my money on Jamie joining forces with Jon Snow as his final and last act of redemption.

#5 hajalie24

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 08:59 PM

Umm he plans on telling everyone about the incest, so yea I think he's changed.

"He thought of Myrcella. I will need to tell her too. The Dornishmen might not like that. Doran Martell had betrothed her to his son in the belief that she was Robert’s blood. Knots and tangles, Jaime thought, wishing he could cut through all of it with one swift stroke of his sword."

#6 Mladen

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 09:01 PM

I don't necessarily hate him. Actually, that's a lie, I do hate him no matter what he does, but I am just baffled as to why people think he is on a redemption arc. He said he wants to try and save Lord Eddard Stark's Daughters, but its too late for him to try and be good now. I hope he is burned. Or flayed.


@Fetch, is there anyone you like in ASOIAF /smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />? Don`t turn this into hate thread please...Also, I am Stark loyalist to the core but I wish Jaime no harm... I like him very much, one of the most interesting characters in series

#7 Florina Laufeyson

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 09:08 PM

I have to get the little graphs out again? Really?

I guess so. And no. It has little to do with his hand being chopped. Thats just one hike in the Character Development Valley ™

Heres Jaime in AGoT in relation to Jon.
The line represents character development. The lowest part of the dip represents the lowest point for the character. Jaime begins there. What with the kingslaying allegations (which we dont find the exact reasons for until much later), the Bran flinging, the Cersei fucking behind everyone's back, the douchey attitude, etc.

Heres Jaime right around ADWD.
Hes on an upswing because he comes to terms with a lot of things. Saving Brienne after having his hand chopped off, letting the reader in on why he killed Aerys, the Cersei letter burning, the seeing Cersei as a terrible person, etc and so forth. Jon is still ahead when it comes to the positive development. But it is subject to change if Jon slides backwards upon waking up.

Yeah hes got a redemption arc going.

#8 Baelor Swyft

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 09:11 PM

You can certainly disagree with those who sympathize with him, but to out and out deny the potential doesn't make sense to me. He saved Brienne multiple times making him literally "a hero" in the most classic sense, plus he stood up to Cersei and has been sticking up for The Starks frequently as of late (e.g. "The Young Wolf was a brave man," berating Sybel Spicer), That doesn't make him a good person but that makes him a valid candidate for praise in a world full of very grey characters.

I respect that he's crossed the moral event horizon for you, but speaking personally of myself, if I took that kind of ardent stance against George's characters there is literally not a single POV I would be rooting for anymore. Most of the major characters in this series have done things as bad as Jaime and many of them have not also done anything to compare with the good things he's done.

#9 BericDondarrion

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 09:11 PM

As recently he said in AFFC to Ilyn Payne that if he caught Arya at the Trident he would have killed her.Not then, he said it present tense as he still would for Cersei.Oh and also said he would have killed Robert if he woke up while he was having sex with his sister.

"He wouldn't have been the first king to die by my blade".

#10 Toccs

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 09:11 PM

I don't think he is on a redemption arc, because I don't think he really needs one. There is only one genuinely bad act that he has done, pushing Bran out the window, while there are numerous acts that are downright heroic and selfless.

Jaime isn't some evil doer who has spent his life doing bad and now wants to do good. He is just a guy who was an arrogant jerk and now wants to do some good. No need for redemption in my opinion.

Edited by Toccs, 10 March 2013 - 09:11 PM.


#11 Sansa_Stark

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 09:21 PM

I don't think he is on a redemption arc, because I don't think he really needs one. There is only one genuinely bad act that he has done, pushing Bran out the window, while there are numerous acts that are downright heroic and selfless.

Jaime isn't some evil doer who has spent his life doing bad and now wants to do good. He is just a guy who was an arrogant jerk and now wants to do some good. No need for redemption in my opinion.


He did his sister, knowing his actions could get her and his children killed and or possibly start a war over succession.

That alone makes his saving King's Landing void imo.

#12 Baelor Swyft

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 09:24 PM

^ Fair enough. I respectfully disagree, he did his sister because he loved her. Of all the horrible horrible, horrible horrible horrible romances in ASOIAF, at least Jaime & Cersei are the same age and are completely consenting. I'll take incest over pedophelia or rape every day of the week.

It's almost a Romeo & Juliet tale... risking their lives to consummate their love. /smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />

#13 locke and key

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 11:38 AM

@Fetch, is there anyone you like in ASOIAF /smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />? Don`t turn this into hate thread please...Also, I am Stark loyalist to the core but I wish Jaime no harm... I like him very much, one of the most interesting characters in series

/agree.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':agree:' /> /cheers.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':cheers:' />

#14 WatcherOnTheWall

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 02:00 PM

'Redemption Ark' is a strong description, he's just being set up to turn against Cersei, killing her and perhaps himself along with her.

#15 Penguin king

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 02:12 PM

I don't think he is on a redemption arc, because I don't think he really needs one. There is only one genuinely bad act that he has done, pushing Bran out the window, while there are numerous acts that are downright heroic and selfless.

Jaime isn't some evil doer who has spent his life doing bad and now wants to do good. He is just a guy who was an arrogant jerk and now wants to do some good. No need for redemption in my opinion.


Yeah. I think he gets too much grief for the Bran thing. Sure it was a terrible thing to do, but it was a snap decision made in a moment of panic. Compare that to Robert Baratheon who spends months planning the murder of a teenage girl in cold blood. Robert's crime is surely the more heinous, but the fan hate really doesn't reflect that.

#16 David Selig

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 02:20 PM

I don't think he is on a redemption arc, because I don't think he really needs one. There is only one genuinely bad act that he has done, pushing Bran out the window, while there are numerous acts that are downright heroic and selfless.

ROFL. Thanks for the laugh.

What are those "numerous" downright heroic and selfless acts, BTW?

Edited by David Selig, 12 March 2013 - 08:57 AM.


#17 Sansa in the North

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 02:36 PM

Well, I do believe Jamie is on a redemption arc and I enjoy it very much, but I don't think he needs it actually. Simply getting his POV of things in SOS was enough to endear him to me. The only thing he has done that I consider truly horrible is trying to kill Bran, but he did it to protect his sister, their children and, yes, his own hide, too. If it's a toss up between killing one child you just met or having your entire family executed then I think I'd choose the former.

I don't blame Jamie for having an affair with Cersei. They loved each other and they wanted to be together. I personally believe that sibling incest, if consensual, is okay. I don't want to start a war, I know that's not a popular opinion, I'm just trying to explain why I don't hold the incest against Jamie. I can understand why people do, though. In any case, Jamie is finished with that relationship.

As for killing Aerys, that IS Jamie's finest act.

ROFL. Thanks for the laugh.

What are those "numerous" downright heroic and selfless acts", BTW?


Well there perhaps aren't that many and I'm not saying that his acts of goodness make up for pushing Bran, but after having his "change of heart", for lack of a better term, he has saved Brienne from the bear and executed the man who raped Pia. He then also took Pia with him, away from Harrenhal. He is also trying to be a better father to Tommen, though I admit he has not done much, simply given Tommen some advice.

#18 Winterfellian

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 02:42 PM

Jaime didn't get his hand cut off to punish him for a crime, he had it cut off for a completely unrelated reason. It's like if you kill someone and then instead of being killed back by a relation of the person you've killed, you're killed by Javier Bardem over a gambling debt. It cannot be called 'justice' or 'revenge', merely 'karma'. And it isn't even that, since instead of being unable to walk he's unable to use a sword to kill more innocent people.


Well, he did lost the hand he used to push Bran from the tower. And the ones who cut his hand were basically Tywin's own dogs he brought from the Narrow Sea in order to terrorize the Riverlands. Bran lost his dearest ability when he fell- to climb. Jaime lost the ability he prized above any other- to fight with a blade.To me this is poetic justice at it's finest.


How can you feel sorry for him? He hasn't actually changed his actions at all, just the way he thinks about himself. He thinks he is some noble warrior, but no, he's a prick who thinks he is less of a prick.


For me at least is not a matter of feeling sorry for Jaime. Is a matter of seeing past the villain image I had of him in AGOT when he pushed Bran or attacked Ned's men and appreciating that there is so much more to Jaime than meets the eye. He's a very complex individual and I very much appreciate the way his impulses, actions and past and present perceptions of the world are always conflicting with one another.
If you think he hasn't change at all I respectfully suggest a careful reread of his arch. Would AGOT Jaime had go back and jumped (defenselessness no less) into a bear pit to save any other person that wasn't Cersei? Is true, a lot of his change is due to the fact that he had to reevaluate himself after the loss of his hand, but by choosing to embark himself into this process of to change Jaime at least shows desire to become better.

He expresses no regret over Bran's predicament.


Wrong. Jaime mused to himself that he ought not to have pushed Bran off the tower. After his return to KG he expressly tells Cersei that he has never been ashamed of loving her, but of the things he has done because of it and immediately mentioned Bran. Just to be clear, am not condoning his action regarding Bran, am just trying to point out that he doesn't look at the situation the same way he did in AGOT.


He considers Tywin Lannister a good man.


Am not so sure about that. He has very conflicting feelings where Tywin is concerned just like the rest of the Lannister siblings. More than once he expressed disapproval to his father's actions and even outright defied him after his return to KG. And at Tywin's demise he expresses more guilt for the part he played in his death that any particular signs of grief.


He continues to defend a family with no claim to the Iron Throne.


The key here is that he continues to defend HIS family, with no claim to the Iron Throne. This is a case where loyalties play a great part and where many of Jaime's conflict (which I for once enjoy reading) arise. And the thing about loyalty is that is something very subjective. It can be bought to some extent or earned it others. There is no distinctive pattern that explains why some men follow the cause they do. To some people in Westeros Robb Stark was never a true king, others view Stannis as the rightful King of Westeros and others will might say that is Dany the one meant to sit that stupid chair.

Part of what's interesting about this point is that Jaime isn't interested at all in the IT. He is not acting for power alone to the point where he even foolishly thinks about telling Tommen and Myrcella the truth of their parentage, but why go through with it all them? Loyalty to the Lannister cause? Selfish knowledge that there is no other place for him except the wall? Lover for Cersei? Desire to live up to at least some of his vows? All of these things together?

Edited by Winterfellian, 11 March 2013 - 02:42 PM.


#19 The hairy bear

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 02:46 PM

[*]Jaime didn't get his hand cut off to punish him for a crime, he had it cut off for a completely unrelated reason. It's like if you kill someone and then instead of being killed back by a relation of the person you've killed, you're killed by Javier Bardem over a gambling debt. It cannot be called 'justice' or 'revenge', merely 'karma'. And it isn't even that, since instead of being unable to walk he's unable to use a sword to kill more innocent people.

The point of having his hand cut is not retaliation or compensation for his bad deeds. The point is that it ends with his career as a warrior. Since he saw himself primarily as a fighter, this forces him to redefine himself as a person.

[*]How can you feel sorry for him? He hasn't actually changed his actions at all, just the way he thinks about himself. He thinks he is some noble warrior, but no, he's a prick who thinks he is less of a prick.

He was a boy full of potential who was used as a pawn for his father and the king, put in the impossible situation of choosing between his vows and his conscience, and who has been manipulated all his live by a woman that does not love him back. Of course I feel sorry for him. I'd think that we would agree that he is a pitiful man.

[*]He expresses no regret over Bran's predicament.

Jaime: "I'm not ashamed of loving you, only of the things I've done to hide it. That boy at Winterfell...". He obviously regrets what he did.

[*]He considers Tywin Lannister a good man.

That's not true. He considers Tywin Lannister a "great man", which is not exactly the same.

[*]He continues to defend a family with no claim to the Iron Throne.

As do the Starks, the Tyrells, the Baratheons, the Targaryens, and nearly everyoen in the books. Everybody has "a claim" according to some views, and everybody doesn't according to others.



#20 Jaime FTW

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 02:46 PM

Jaime haters gonna hate /laugh.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':laugh:' />
you just have to realize that there are a lot of characters beside Starks, Dany and the Imp