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Jon Snow and the Blue Winter Rosetta Stone


J. Stargaryen

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When you reference Lyanna was 'fond' of the flowers and Rhaegar was 'fond' of Elia, do you mean that she was not necessarily hopelessly in love with him?

Different performer, and different audience. Ned is telling Robert that Lyanna was . . . fond of blue winter roses. The elipsis means that there is some thought going on, a reaching for words, and to say that she loved a flower might have been TMI for Robert, so it would seem that Ned is changing what he almost blurted out. ;)
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Wow, great synopsis! Do you mind if I save it in my nerd ASAOIF theories folder?

When you reference Lyanna was 'fond' of the flowers and Rhaegar was 'fond' of Elia, do you mean that she was not necessarily hopelessly in love with him?

Thank you! You're certainly welcome to save it.

Re: fond. I am aware of that reading, and recognize it as possible, but it's not what I am suggesting. Though it is interesting that the word is used here to potentially describe the romantic feelings between Rhaegar and his paramours, Elia and Lyanna. It is possible that Lyanna didn't love Rhaegar, but perhaps cooperated with him in order to fulfill the prophecy. That's one potential interpretation, for example. But if "flowers" = Jon, then I think we can rule out that version. It may not be that "flowers" = Jon in this instance. It's possible that only a direct mention of the roses triggers that symbolism.

Ned and Barristan are arguably the two most honorable men in the series, and lies do not easily roll off of their tongues, so it's interesting that these two are connected by the use of this word. Rather than lie, each tells a guarded version of the truth. Barristan says "fond" to soften or hide the truth of Rhaegar's feelings towards Elia, from Dany. Ned says "fond" to soften or hide the truth of Lyanna's feelings for Jon, and possibly Rhaegar, from Robert. Both of these honorable men can rest easy at night, knowing they've been truthful to their lieges. That's the interpretation I favor. Though, as I said, I am mindful of the other.

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Different performer, and different audience. Ned is telling Robert that Lyanna was . . . fond of blue winter roses. The elipsis means that there is some thought going on, a reaching for words, and to say that she loved a flower might have been TMI for Robert, so it would seem that Ned is changing what he almost blurted out. ;)

Ahh, I see what you mean! I definitely am more than a little obsessed with R+L, but there's 45 threads so I don't feel I can add much.

Thank you! You're certainly welcome to save it.

Re: fond. I am aware of that reading, and recognize it as possible, but it's not what I am suggesting. Though it is interesting that the word is used here to potentially describe the romantic feelings between Rhaegar and his paramours, Elia and Lyanna. It is possible that Lyanna didn't love Rhaegar, but perhaps cooperated with him in order to fulfill the prophecy. That's one potential interpretation, for example. But if "flowers" = Jon, then I think we can rule out that version. It may not be that "flowers" = Jon in this instance. It's possible that only a direct mention of the roses triggers that symbolism.

Ned and Barristan are arguably the two most honorable men in the series, and lies do not easily roll off of their tongues, so it's interesting that these two are connected by the use of this word. Rather than lie, each tells a guarded version of the truth. Barristan says "fond" to soften or hide the truth of Rhaegar's feelings towards Elia, from Dany. Ned says "fond" to soften or hide the truth of Lyanna's feelings for Jon, and possibly Rhaegar, from Robert. Both of these honorable men can rest easy at night, knowing they've been truthful to their lieges. That's the interpretation I favor. Though, as I said, I am mindful of the other.

Don't thank me, I'm just really grateful! I want to become better (well, any progress would be good) of developing my own interpretations of the text. I think studying intelligent readings will make it easier for me, so really I'm just being selfish :P

I try to keep an open mind with L+R, mainly because I'm very interested in Rhaegar. He's seen as this golden child, yet we know he had a fanatical obsession. It would be fascinating to know if their love (which I don't dispute existed) was based on... Well, love or a mutual obsession. It would in a way explain why when people ask Lyanna didn't do anything when Rickard and Brandon were killed, she could have thought she was fulfilling a higher purpose?

Basically I just want one Lyanna POV chapter! Lol

Anyway, sorry I went off topic. It will be interesting to see if Jon himself encounters any blue winter roses...

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Ahh, I see what you mean! I definitely am more than a little obsessed with R+L, but there's 45 threads so I don't feel I can add much.

Don't thank me, I'm just really grateful! I want to become better (well, any progress would be good) of developing my own interpretations of the text. I think studying intelligent readings will make it easier for me, so really I'm just being selfish :P

I try to keep an open mind with L+R, mainly because I'm very interested in Rhaegar. He's seen as this golden child, yet we know he had a fanatical obsession. It would be fascinating to know if their love (which I don't dispute existed) was based on... Well, love or a mutual obsession. It would in a way explain why when people ask Lyanna didn't do anything when Rickard and Brandon were killed, she could have thought she was fulfilling a higher purpose?

Basically I just want one Lyanna POV chapter! Lol

Anyway, sorry I went off topic. It will be interesting to see if Jon himself encounters any blue winter roses...

You mean like a mirror? ;)

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FYI, I'll be updating the OP a bit tonight. I've already touched up the first few paragraphs, and will be getting to the interpretations pretty soon here, I think. Three cheers for obsessiveness. No, make that four.

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You mean like a mirror? ;)

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FYI, I'll be updating the OP a bit tonight. I've already touched up the first few paragraphs, and will be getting to the interpretations pretty soon here, I think. Three cheers for obsessiveness. No, make that four.

Heh. :D

Would you mind posting that you've updated so I get a notification? pretty sure we're in different timezones, so.

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Heh. :D

Would you mind posting that you've updated so I get a notification? pretty sure we're in different timezones, so.

Sure, no problem. I'm happy to accommodate anyone who gives me an excuse to bump my own thread. :lol:

In all seriousness, I think some of this stuff should be standard R+L=J evidence. Not all of the interpretations are clear enough to qualify them for that status. But The Moment When All the Smiles Died for example... c'mon.

Lately a couple of people have attempted to argue that Mance + Lyanna = Jon, which is actually pretty interesting, and more plausible than any N+?=J scenario. Aside from some other serious issues, M+L=J doesn't hold up to symbolism that takes place during the Tourney at Harrenhal in the YotFS. After all, it wasn't Mance who placed the crown of beauty's laurel (Jon) in Lyanna's lap (womb).

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Sure, no problem. I'm happy to accommodate anyone who gives me an excuse to bump my own thread. :lol:

In all seriousness, I think some of this stuff should be standard R+L=J evidence. Not all of the interpretations are clear enough to qualify them for that status. But The Moment When All the Smiles Died for example... c'mon.

Lately a couple of people have attempted to argue that Mance + Lyanna = Jon, which is actually pretty interesting, and more plausible than any N+?=J scenario. Aside from some other serious issues, M+L=J doesn't hold up to symbolism that takes place during the Tourney at Harrenhal in the YotFS. After all, it wasn't Mance who placed the crown of beauty's laurel (Jon) in Lyanna's lap (womb).

I've read the Mance theories, but to me the strongest piece of evidence against M+L=J is that this series is almost as old as me, Mance is a red herring.

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Importing this from the Moments of Foreshadowing thread, b/c the debate was clogging it up.

Your expanding of the quote I originally provided did not change Ygritte's meaning at all. She is directly using winter roses as a symbolic representation of Stark maidens, this is very obvious. You're subsequent attempt at using a form of syllogism to imply that Ygritte is also casting the son as a rose as well simply does not make sense.

By this logic, when Robett Glover was exchanged for Martyn Lannister they were saying that Glover = Lannister in value, therefore Robett is a lion....I hope you can see how this is some very flawed logic. The same goes for Fittlelinger's chicken=cow analogy in the MOF thread. Using something as payment for something else (because they are deemed equal in value) does not mean that something is now something else by some sort of weird transitive property (Good lord are we getting abstract here or what?).

Ygritte's meaning is very clear in that story: Bael asked for the most beautiful winter rose in Winterfell, he then took a Stark maiden (therefore she is clearly the rose he was referring to). He then offered a son as payment for the rose b/c the Stark girl was no longer a rose after he had "plucked" her. Therefore what made her a rose in the first place was that she was a Stark Maiden. Once she was deflowered and had the son, she was no longer rose...that is why Bael felt compelled to offer a son in payment, he had taken or "plucked" a rose and now "owed" a debt.

That's not true. Your insistence that any blue rose must represent Stark girl's who have a son b/c of the "commonalities" between the Bael story and Lyanna and Rhaegar's --- it's just not a prerequistite that Ygritte places on being a blue rose. As I just intimated above, having the baby actually made the Stark girl cease to be a blue rose according to Ygritte. What made her a blue rose was being a Stark and a maiden. That's it.

So this simple fact alone, Ygritte's use of a winter rose to directly represent a Stark maiden, makes both Sansa and Arya eligible to be the blue rose in Dany's vision. No babies required.

Also, you're insinuation in another post that winter roses must not be a common symbolic representation or "sigil" for Stark maidens b/c the Lord Stark In Ygritte's story didn't understand what Bael really wanted when he asked for the most beautiful winter rose in Winterfell doesn't hold up either imo. Lord Stark could simply be a dunce who didn't get the double meaning behind Bael's request, it just went over his head. Like if a man asked some Lord Lannister for the most beautiful Lioness in Casterly Rock, and the lord assumed he meant a real lion from his menagerie, when the man really meant his beautiful daughter. The lord not getting the meaning doesn't mean we can assume that Lioness's must not be a common "sigil" of sorts for Lannister girls.

He put Jon in her lap (I think your symbolic analysis is correct), but here is where I don't think you are getting the subtlety of the point I am trying to make: While winter roses do not represent Stark boys in the same way that they directly represent Stark maidens, they can indirectly represent a Stark boy (like Jon) in that they serve to remind us of Bael's story in general, which ended with a "plucked" rose having a son (eerily similar to the Lyanna/Rhaegar situation). I still see almost all of the analysis you offered in this thread's OP as being valid, because I can see how the blue rose can indirectly be seen as a reference to Jon (which is why he can be the blue rose in Dany's vision as well. Indeed, I thought he was for a very long time until I reassessed what I thought these mount's of Dany's were in a general sense; not husbands, but rather people/things that lead her to places).

But you're argument that blue roses are some sort of secondary sigil to directly represent Stark boys like they clearly do Stark maidens, that is what disagree with, because you are basing it on some fallacious syllogism that skews the meaning of Ygritte's words when she tells the Bael story. She simply is not saying that Stark boys are roses in that story. Nor that Stark girls must have sons in order to be represented by roses. Ygritte is using winter roses as a direct symbolic representation (secondary sigil of sorts) for Stark maidens in that story, and I see no way for you to negate this fact, and therefore exclude Arya and Sansa from ever being blue roses b/c they don't have sons or musically inclined men to steal them.

I really like this interpretation Ser Wun Wun!

My one quibble is I'd prefer the emphasis to be placed on the childless state of the woman rather than her virginity (this is more for reasons not related to literary analysis though). It's strange that in the religion of the seven the only three states of a woman are maiden, mother, and crone.... so maybe maiden can sometimes just mean childless. :dunno:

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The storm = baby Jon crying is a nice add, now that I think about it. I believe that because the wording is a "A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death." I only thought of storm as meaning windy. But a storm can also imply rain, and raindrops are nature's tears.

That is interesting. I read it as basically saying a storm(like a lot, as in storm of swords) of blue rose petals on a red sky. Plus they equal death. So the blue rose amidst all that blood=dead Lyanna after childbirth.

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That is interesting. I read it as basically saying a storm(like a lot, as in storm of swords) of blue rose petals on a red sky. Plus they equal death. So the blue rose amidst all that blood=dead Lyanna after childbirth.

Do the rose petals equal death? If they do, and using your interpretation of "storm", I would say it suggests a lot of death, which is certainly an accurate representation of the events of that day. Sometimes there are multiple possibilities, and it's difficult to make a clear case. However, connecting this "storm" with the one from ASoS is definitely reasonable, to say the least.

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I have updated the OP. Quite a bit, actually. I think only the BtB and Ned-Cersei parts have gone untouched. Thanks for the inspiration and input, MtnLion, NSEWesteros, and sabrecmc.

ETA: I also added an analysis of Dany's HotU vision.

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ETA: I also added an analysis of Dany's HotU vision.

You are welcome. I will have to return and take a deeper and fresher look at your first page, when I have the chance to really analyze it. I have a special interpretation of the HotU, too, and am curious to know if you are following the same path. ;)
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A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness.

A blue flower, definitely Jon since he is at the Wall (of ice). The chink, a broken spot? a crevice? an openning of some sort in the Wall (of ice). Maybe the last operational gateway, they are talking about sealing them all. Filling the air with sweetness, on the one hand that could be that Daenerys will be strongly attracted to Jon. It could also be the sickeningly sweet smell of death, or decay. GRRM likes to make them multi-layered, so these are just guesses.

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A blue flower, definitely Jon since he is at the Wall (of ice). The chink, a broken spot? a crevice? an openning of some sort in the Wall (of ice). Maybe the last operational gateway, they are talking about sealing them all. Filling the air with sweetness, on the one hand that could be that Daenerys will be strongly attracted to Jon. It could also be the sickeningly sweet smell of death, or decay. GRRM likes to make them multi-layered, so these are just guesses.

Maybe the Black Gate? Where you have to say the NW vow before you can pass. Not all of it though, just the cool parts.

,"I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers. I am the shield that guards the realms of men."

Which is different the from actual NW vow, as we know it:

Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all nights to come.

If the truncated version is the original NW vow, the part that actually matters, then the question of how Jon will become king of anything without breaking his NW vows has already been answered. You are not required to forswear any crowns. Or marriage and children, for that matter. You can have all of those things, and still be true to the NW.

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Do the rose petals equal death? If they do, and using your interpretation of "storm", I would say it suggests a lot of death, which is certainly an accurate representation of the events of that day. Sometimes there are multiple possibilities, and it's difficult to make a clear case. However, connecting this "storm" with the one from ASoS is definitely reasonable, to say the least.

---

I have updated the OP. Quite a bit, actually. I think only the BtB and Ned-Cersei parts have gone untouched. Thanks for the inspiration and input, MtnLion, NSEWesteros, and sabrecmc.

ETA: I also added an analysis of Dany's HotU vision.

:o :wub: Thank you! I'm genuinely very honoured, I didn't think I had anything of interest to add.

I think your case is really impenetrable. The fact that he can't use Jon in his mind as 'baby' so his picture's Lyanna's one greatest love: blue winter roses actually makes perfect sense, because what would have become her one greatest love after she gave birth?

This makes me want to actually join in the R+L=J threads!

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I don't have time to go into a detailed reply right now (As it's 1 in the morning), but I do have time to say well done. I've always been a believer in R+L=J but it's nice to see the Blue Rose and Jon tied together so nicely and in such a good post. Kudos.

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:o :wub: Thank you! I'm genuinely very honoured, I didn't think I had anything of interest to add.

I think your case is really impenetrable. The fact that he can't use Jon in his mind as 'baby' so his picture's Lyanna's one greatest love: blue winter roses actually makes perfect sense, because what would have become her one greatest love after she gave birth?

This makes me want to actually join in the R+L=J threads!

Do it! There's nothing to be afraid of. Unless you try to push N+?=J on us. Then we all start to breath fire. ;)

Am I the only person that pictured Jon listening to his iPod trying to learn Spanish when reading the thread title? :P.

"You know nothing, Jon Snow."

"That's not true, I know Spanish."

Also, I'm pretty sure your post foreshadows a future iPhone as Lightbringer. Not just any iPhone, but one with a battery that lasts longer than show-Robb's first time.

I don't have time to go into a detailed reply right now (As it's 1 in the morning), but I do have time to say well done. I've always been a believer in R+L=J but it's nice to see the Blue Rose and Jon tied together so nicely and in such a good post. Kudos.

Thank you. That's nice of you to say. GRRM has really done some lovely things with symbolism in the series, and the pale blue roses are no exception.

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Do it! There's nothing to be afraid of. Unless you try to push N+?=J on us. Then we all start to breath fire. ;)

"You know nothing, Jon Snow."

"That's not true, I know Spanish."

Also, I'm pretty sure your post foreshadows a future iPhone as Lightbringer. Not just any iPhone, but one with a battery that lasts longer than show-Robb's first time.

Thank you. That's nice of you to say. GRRM has really done some lovely things with symbolism in the series, and the pale blue roses are no exception.

But I have nothing to add and you all are much more intelligent that me.

I totally agree on the symbolism, it really makes the series special IMO. I ove the foreshadowing, the prophecies, the symbolism... It makes for books that can be read over and over, even if the plot is the same each time, what you read isn't. If that makes sense.

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But I have nothing to add and you all are much more intelligent that me.

I totally agree on the symbolism, it really makes the series special IMO. I ove the foreshadowing, the prophecies, the symbolism... It makes for books that can be read over and over, even if the plot is the same each time, what you read isn't. If that makes sense.

I need to agree with you. I have retention that makes it impossible to read novels a second time, except with this series. I have always enjoyed a reread of any of the books, because, as I have said before there are layers like an onion in GRRM's writing, and new things always pop up.
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