Jon Snow and the Blue Winter Rosetta Stone

[BearQueen87]

I pointed this out earlier today in the R+ L = J thread, taking the show GoT into consideration (not sure if it has been posted before). When Dany enters the HotU, there is a scene of her in the Red Keep throne room. It's covered in snow. And what is directly in front of her?

http://gameofthronesrp.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/543279_305164902904050_240720222_n.jpg

A blue rose.

The blue rose in the chink of the wall from aCoK.

[Alia of the knife]

There seems to be some R+L=J imagery surrounding Ser Loras Tyrell during the Tourney of the Hand in AGoT. Having spotted these things, I doubt it's a coincidence that GRRM placed them on and around the Knight of Flowers. A character whose sigil is actually a rose. (Fwiw, his personal device is three golden roses. Three being strongly associated with House Targaryen and THotD prophecy. So, maybe that's not a coincidence either.)

Knowing what we know about Jon's identity and his ties to blue roses, GRRM's inclusion of the Knight of Flowers allows him to play around with R+L=J symbolism, as you'll see.

- AGoT, Sansa II

To begin with, GRRM is using the setting as a hint. Here we are, at a tournament. Not coincidentally, the origins of R+L=J can be traced back to the famous Tourney at Harrenhal in the Year of the False Spring, where Rhaegar crowned Lyanna as the Queen of Love and Beauty.

Three knights of the KG who were defeated, just like at the ToJ. Another R+L=J connection. Also, reading "that morning" makes me think of Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. Perhaps that was even GRRM's intention.

"now-white" is a description we see associated with the KG twice (Eddard I, Sansa II) and Ghost once, Jon I. The nudge to remind readers of Jon Snow is hardly subtle. At most, GRRM could be said to be hiding it in plain sight. Somewhat beside the point, but I do not think it is a coincidence in the least that the Kingsguard wears white, which is of course the color of snow. Yes, like Jon Snow. (Also, see: "snowy cloak," Sansa IV, Eddard XV.)

But further, we have a "blanket of red and white roses." This practically shouts: Wars of the Roses! Which makes sense since GRRM has often mentioned that they were one of the big inspirations for the series. Specifically the game of thrones portion of the story.

With that in mind, can we read anything into Ser Loras' distribution of the roses? Historically speaking, the white rose was associated with the Yorks, the eventual losing side of the WotR. Loras gives the white roses to unnamed fair maidens in the crowd, but Sansa is special. She's the Hand's daughter, and this is the Tourney of the Hand, so she gets a red rose. That's the likely in-story explanation, at least, though it's never stated.

Historically, the red rose is associated with the Lancasters, and it was one of their claimants who eventually emerged victorious in the WotR. I'm left wondering exactly what GRRM is trying to tell us here. The red and white roses on Ser Loras' horse were not written that way by accident. I'm confident of that much.

Does it mean that Sansa, as many have theorized, will end up winning the game of thrones? That's one possible conclusion. But it would probably be a mistake to ignore the R+L=J hints we're getting around this WotR symbolism. Not that they necessarily preclude the Sansa wins! outcome, but their inclusion merits further thought and analysis.

- Sansa, II

It could also be telling us that another civil war was about to begin. Symbolic markers, so to speak. Recall the last time a Stark maiden was given roses at a tournament. (The fact that history is repeating itself here really stands out as an obvious parallel between the two tournaments, to go along with some of the more subtle connections.)

- AGoT, Eddard XV

It wasn't long after that the rebellion began. So it seems like giving Stark girls roses at tournaments leads to bloody business. :)

A couple of points here. First, Sansa took the flower from Ser Loras. In my analysis of "the moment when all the smiles died" I noted that the crown was placed in Lyanna's lap, which I believe symbolizes the conception of Jon. There was some further discussion about whether it was proper, practical, or even possible for her to reach out and accept the laurel. I think in light of this Sansa comparison, my analysis holds up well; i.e., that GRRM deliberately wrote it so that Rhaegar placed the crown of roses in Lyanna's lap for the symbolic value.

Secondly, notice the colors of the flowers. There is somewhat of a red/blue dichotomy in the series. Red being partially associated with fire, and blue partially with ice, winter and snow. (...blue as frost.) I'm not entirely sure what to make of it at the moment, other than the usual associations with those colors.

---

The second quote almost surely tells us what color the roses in the first quote were when they were alive. At least, Ned associates blue rose petals with the ToJ, where he eventually saw the dead and black rose petals spill from Lyanna's hand. So, blue and black.

- AGoT, Eddard VII

Let's start with the second part first. Here, Ser Loras is wearing silver armor decorated with blue flowers, which actually turn out to be sapphires. The gem that just so happens to hint at secrets, lies and hidden identities. Convenient, eh? The coloring is curious when you think about it, since the Tyrell colors are gold and green. Why did GRRM decorate that character, the Knight of Flowers, in those colors?

The decision to use blue 'flowers' here, at a tourney, was no accident. I believe this was done with the intent of reminding the audience of the Tourney at Harrenhal and the crown of winter roses. In other words, it's yet another R+L=J allusion.

The phrase blue of the flowers is even reminiscent of Dany's vision from the HotU: A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness... Or perhaps it's the other way around. But, either way, there's something of a linguistic connection.

Now, back to the first part. Blue and black, intertwined. Which I think connects back to the roses at the ToJ, which were very likely blue before they were dead and black. "[T]iny blue forget-me-nots make for an interesting choice, I think, in light of these possible R+L=J hints and clues. What is it that Ned can't forget?

As I mentioned in my Emeralds thread, the color blue can be tied to Jon Snow symbolically via the blue roses, for starters. The sapphires which, again, hint at secrets and lies with a focus on identity. (That actually reads like a vague description of R+L=J.) Then we have the Blue Fork of the Trident, where it turns out that the sepulcher of Tristifer IV Mudd is a big R+L=J metaphor (Do yourself a favor and read that analysis if you haven't yet. It's really great. Credit to FrozenFire3, among others.). And, it was also the spot where Robb told Catelyn of his plan to legitimize Jon as a Stark and designate him as the heir to Winterfell, as well as the kingdoms of the North and Trident.

---

In further support of the flower-rose premise, here are a couple of examples of GRRM using the two words interchangeably.

- AGoT, Eddard XV

GRRM relies heavily on history, and most notably, "the War of the Roses," which he confirmed in a recent interview in June of 2014. But, he does also use a technique of laying clues by way of telling storys of other tales and stories, so I agree that the story of Bael the Bard as a foreshadowing of later events.

Also, here is something else I found interesting.

I am reading Anya Seton's classic,"Katherine," the story of the two people who were the "nexus" for the War of the Roses, the Black Princes brother, John of Gaunt and his mistress, (and later wife as well as sister-in-law to Chaucer),

Katherine Swynford, who would be the mother of the Beaufort line, and found similarities here as well as Faulkners "conflicts of the heart" to events in aSoIaF.

"If no love is, ah God, what feel I so?

And if love, what thing and which is he?

If love be good from whence cometh my woe?

If he be wicked, a wonder thinketh me...."

- Troilus and Criseyde (1366-1367)

John of Gaunt and Plantaganet pride vs.Targaryen Blood of the Dragon.

At the banquet when Katherine first spies the Kings third son, John of Gaunt:

"As he strode down the hall between the kneeling varlets and the bowing courtiers, Katherine felt the impact of ruthless vitality and pride.He is more king than King himself, she thought, staring fascinated."

(She may not have cried like Lyanna, but banquets seem to be the happening place, and colors as well as sigils are ripe with symbology).

The kings mistress, Alice Perrers, observation of Katherines unfashionable beauty:

"She has something else- a great deal else," said Alice Perrers soft laughing voice from the corner," and if you ladies are too stupid to see, the men won't be. Thanks to God that the King is shortsighted, I can fill his entire vision-and shall."

(Katherine had dark auburn hair and grey eyes which was "unfashionable" though beauty she was, at a time when serene blondes, (such as Blanche of Lancaster, the Dukes wife), with high foreheads and finely arched brows were all the rage. Her dark lashes were noteworthy as well).

This "something" is what I always attributed to not only Lyanna, but an adult Arya as well. Obvious beauties, (with Arya growing into such beauty), but something beyond as well. I think with Arya the reader will always have a sense of her beauty through the eyes and reactions of others, but never hers.

John of Gaunt as a child after a traumatic encounter with the jealous son of his beloved wet nurse, Isolda over wanting to hold a royal gerfalcon which John told him he could not, and the son accused him of being a bastard and not true born. After a scuffle, the falcon was taken from him as punishment by his father, the king.

" He scarcely missed the falcon after that., for the poison Pieter had instilled spread slowly through his soul. He ceased to play with other children, but kept to himself and grew silent and morose."

John of Gaunts nephew, Richard II, would go on to legitimize the children born prior to the marriage of the Duke, (and later his Duchess), Katherine with the provision that their offpring would never lay claim to the throne.

Of course that would be a promise unkept as Henry the VII did that very thing.

[Emilia Stark]

"A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the world with sweetness."

It can hardly be denied that, like the BWR above, JS has grown since his arrival at Castle Black, as a man and just as importantly as a leader. His decisions become increasingly more difficult (from choosing to empathize with and teach his brothers instead of relentlessly dominating them in training, to swallowing his pride and accepting the role of stewart, to taking the risk to send a party to Hardhome, to everything in between...); and he's been forced to sacrifice so much along the way (helping his family vs keeping his vows, taking QH's life for the greater good...); but like a good Stark, his choices are weighted with honor and duty, and are largely for the good of the Watch, the 7K, and essentially for all the realms of men.

I like the imagery of a chink letting in light, but Jon has already done more than that as the "hole" in the wall: he altruistically chose to let the wildlings pass through. The Ides of Marsh occurred directly as a result of Jon being a chink in the wall and letting the free people into the realm against the wishes of many of his nights watch brethren. Whether or not he survives the attack (I hope he does), the many folks he's already killed combined with these wounds along with the wounds he suffered from Ygrettes arrows, his burn from the whitewalker encounter, and his myriad other injuries sustained throughout could certainly be said to have filled the air with the sweet stench of sickness, rot, and death described the various quotes from the Dany/Sweetness thread.

[Emilia Stark]

Also, on a different note from earlier (#115 and #120), the three flowers gifted to Dany from Dario that *also* made it into the show could have a greater meaning-- perhaps they represent her three husbands (*NOT* the three riders, though), or three phases/transitions/metamorphosises Dany must undergo in her journey.

Lady's Lace: white lace brings to mind images of purity, a docile bride, supplication, fragility, virginity, sweetness, perhaps lost innocence... the first phase of her life culminating in Drogo, her baby, and her people cruelly being taken from her so early on in one foul swoop.

---to transition out of this phase in her life, she's reborn amid a fury of blood-magic and dragon-fire via her vengefully taking MMR's life by fire in her beloved husbands' funeral pier... all innocence is gone---

Harpy's Gold: Beautiful yet deadly. Red like fire and blood, gold like money, filled with power... all of which happen to be the driving forces in her ruthless campaign and struggles in Essos. Also, poisonous, like the Harpy and Hizar and so many of her relationships in this phase... culminating in her *finally!* riding a dragon and escaping from the fiery, bloody, poisonous catastrophe in the fight pit.

--- To transition out of this, it seems that she's reborn in the Dorthraki sea, close to death, under the blue sky as even her world begins to become colder... winter is coming, all around---

And finally the part that relates to this post...

Dusk (Blue Winter) Rose: Sooner or later when she emerges from the great grass sea, Dany must finally that she needs to be in Westerose, and fighting the evil North of the wall instead of vying for the Iron Throne. Perhaps their relationship will be a combination of the love and passion she had with Drogo, but also a seemingly astute political move like her union with Hizar; but even if nothing culminates between the two romantically, I firmly believe that JS ends up at her side (Ice to balance her Fire) (too convenient that he's on the wall, a warg, and also a TargStark (R+L=J, ftw!)). Even if the dusk rose isn't the same as the BWR, it's a blue rose on Dany's side of the world. Coincidence? I think not. Blue roses are too closely linked to L and J, and her vision in the HotU is a pretty strong hint.

[J. Stargaryen]

"A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the world with sweetness."

It can hardly be denied that, like the BWR above, JS has grown since his arrival at Castle Black, as a man and just as importantly as a leader. His decisions become increasingly more difficult (from choosing to empathize with and teach his brothers instead of relentlessly dominating them in training, to swallowing his pride and accepting the role of stewart, to taking the risk to send a party to Hardhome, to everything in between...); and he's been forced to sacrifice so much along the way (helping his family vs keeping his vows, taking QH's life for the greater good...); but like a good Stark, his choices are weighted with honor and duty, and are largely for the good of the Watch, the 7K, and essentially for all the realms of men.

I like the imagery of a chink letting in light, but Jon has already done more than that as the "hole" in the wall: he altruistically chose to let the wildlings pass through. The Ides of Marsh occurred directly as a result of Jon being a chink in the wall and letting the free people into the realm against the wishes of many of his nights watch brethren. Whether or not he survives the attack (I hope he does), the many folks he's already killed combined with these wounds along with the wounds he suffered from Ygrettes arrows, his burn from the whitewalker encounter, and his myriad other injuries sustained throughout could certainly be said to have filled the air with the sweet stench of sickness, rot, and death described the various quotes from the Dany/Sweetness thread.

Welcome to the forums. :cheers:

Jon has certainly been growing (blooming) since he arrived at the Wall. I like your interpretation re: the hole/letting the Wildlings through, too. Since it is this action that leads to the Ides of Marsh which, in turn, will lead to the rest of Jon's arc/fulfilling his destiny.

[J. Stargaryen]

Just posted this over in the big R+L=J too:

The king is missing. We've seen that theme before, dropped as hints here and there (like kings under the snow).

The plinth is covered with moss and flowering vines. Moss grows on the north side of things. In real life, not exclusively, but it's definitely folklore that it does, which may be even more important in analyzing fantasy. As for the flowering vines, what kind of flower are they? Tyrion doesn't tell us they're roses, and he doesn't tell us they're not. Roses aren't really meaningful to Tyrion IIRC, and he's in an epically bad mood, so I'm not sure he'd register them as such, even if they were. Probably irrelevant, but I'm also reminded that one word for a climbing vine is liana.

So, are we being told that there's a missing king who's in the north and associated with a flowering vine?

Which is linguistically similar to this previously mentioned passage:

- AGoT, Eddard VII

"[F]lowering vines" + the bold.

Nice catch, Ygritte. :thumbsup:

The next evening they came upon a huge Valyrian sphinx crouched beside the road. It had a dragon's body and a woman's face.

"A dragon queen," said Tyrion. "A pleasant omen."

"Her king is missing." Illyrio pointed out the smooth stone plinth on which the second sphinx once stood, now grown over with moss and flowering vines. "The horselords built wooden wheels beneath him and dragged him back to Vaes Dothrak."

If "flowering vines" is connected to the description of Ser Loras' armor at the TotH—"twining black vines and tiny blue forget-me-nots"—then moss makes for a(nother) grouping of green, blue, and black. Which is something we've seen before (e.g., Patchface), and probably has something to do with Jon, Dany, and fAegon. But also, Jon has strong connections to both blue and black, so both of those colors may represent him alone, with green being for Dany and/or fAegon. Or, Jon + Dany could 'team up'.

[J. Stargaryen]

Along the lines of the analyses I've posted here and here, the finale of the Melee at Bitterbridge between Brienne and Ser Loras stood out to me.

The white horse and the black one wheeled like lovers at a harvest dance, the riders throwing steel in place of kisses. Longaxe flashed and morningstar whirled. Both weapons were blunted, yet still they raised an awful clangor. Shieldless, the blue knight was getting much the worse of it. Ser Loras rained down blows on his head and shoulders, to shouts of “Highgarden!” from the throng. The other gave answer with his morningstar, but whenever the ball came crashing in, Ser Loras interposed his battered green shield, emblazoned with three golden roses. When the longaxe caught the blue knight’s hand on the backswing and sent the morningstar flying from his grasp, the crowd screamed like a rutting beast. The Knight of Flowers raised his axe for the final blow.

The blue knight charged into it. The stallions slammed together, the blunted axehead smashed against the scarred blue breastplate… but somehow the blue knight had the haft locked between steel-gauntleted fingers. He wrenched it from Ser Loras’s hand, and suddenly the two were grappling mount-to-mount, and an instant later they were falling. As their horses pulled apart, they crashed to the ground with bone-jarring force. Loras Tyrell, on the bottom, took the brunt of the impact. The blue knight pulled a long dirk free and flicked open Tyrell’s visor. The roar of the crowd was too loud for Catelyn to hear what Ser Loras said, but she saw the word form on his split, bloody lips. Yield.

- ACoK, Catelyn II

Not only are the horses the background colors of the Stark and Targaryen sigils, but they are opposites, like ice and fire. (Of course the fact that the background colors of the Stark and Targaryen sigils are white and black is most likely not a coincidence, but I digress...) GRRM likens these riders to lovers at a harvest dance. The latter could hint at Corn King themes, which can be found in Jon Snow's storyline, and the former is, well, a bit obvious assuming my impression is correct.

In this scene it is not Ser Loras who is wearing blue like he did at the TotH, but rather Brienne who is described as "the blue knight." Despite this difference, we once again see GRRM combine blue + Tyrells/flowers/roses, which leaves a hint of blue roses in the subtext. The Knight of Flowers is still in silver plate, as he was at the TotH. But with a crest of golden roses on his helmet, as well as his personal device upon his shield; three golden roses on a green background. Which seems a good deal more appropriate for a son and knight of House Tyrell than his previous tourney attire. Of course, this actually serves to reinforce the question that was asked in my previous analysis — Just why did GRRM garb Ser Loras in blue and black at that tourney? But here it is Brienne in blue, which makes sense since she is from "the Sapphire Isle," which is ruled by her father, who is called the Evenstar.

Before I get to the final part, there are a couple of points I wanted to mention. First, Brienne uses a bit of trickery to win the melee, which makes this the second time a blue knight has done so in the series; Ser Loras himself, at the TotH. Also, it occurred to me that these two combatants are both in love with the same person. Yet, only one has been with him, while the other doesn't really know him. Sound familiar? “You never knew Lyanna as I did, Robert,” Ned told him.” - AGoT, Eddard VII.

The other important thing that stood out to me was Brienne's use of a morningstar as her weapon. First, it provides a contrast with her father's title, the Evenstar. And if you know a little bit about astronomy, you know that Venus is known as both the evening star and the morning star. "Venus 'overtakes' Earth every 584 days as it orbits the Sun. As it does so, it changes from the 'Evening Star', visible after sunset, to the 'Morning Star', visible before sunrise." - Link. I can't help but wonder if GRRM isn't possibly hinting at something here, maybe even just having a bit of fun. After all, Venus was the Roman goddess of beauty. And Brienne, though described as quite unfortunate looking, is sarcastically called "Brienne the Beauty" by several characters.

Any time Brienne is (possibly) involved in some R+L=J foreshadowing, I like to remind readers of the sigil of her House, as I think it is thematically relevant to R+L=J; quartered suns and crescent moons on a blue background. The sun and moon serving as symbolic opposites, like ice and fire. But crescent moons might have more going on for them than that, much of which goes beyond the scope of this post. For now I will only repeat something I've pointed out before. In English heraldry the crescent moon represents a second son.

Lastly, the morningstar is a completely normal weapon for a knight to use, especially in a melee, so it might otherwise pass unnoticed. But the constellation of elements present here: black and white horses, "lovers at a harvest dance," two combatants fighting over one person, blue + roses, has reminded me that morningstar — or rather morning star — is one way to translate the Latin lucifer. Another way is light bringing, which in Greek it literally means "bringer of Dawn." Now, it is no big revelation around here, and I won't speculate as to what it means, that our magical sword shares its name with the Christian Devil. But, I thought it was quite interesting to have the aforementioned details, which seem to hint at elements of R+L=J, combined with a possible play on words for Lightbringer.

Lucifer is the King James Version rendering of the Hebrew word הֵילֵל in Isaiah 14:12. This word, transliterated hêlêl or heylel, occurs only once in the Hebrew Bible and according to the KJV-influenced Strong's Concordance means "shining one, morning star". The word Lucifer is taken from the Latin Vulgate, which translates הֵילֵל as lucifer, meaning "the morning star, the planet Venus", or, as an adjective, "light-bringing". The Septuagint renders הֵילֵל in Greek as ἑωσφόρος(heōsphoros), a name, literally "bringer of dawn", for the morning star.

- Link

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Cool thread OP! :)

I think the blue winter rose left in Winterfell when a daughter is stolen represents the wildling side of the Stark women. Lyarra's mother was a Flint, the Starks (whether they like it or not) are all tied up in the wildling royalty, backed up by the Flint's making an appearance at the Wall for the wedding and bringing a wet nurse. It's all connected and Jon is like the catalyst that brings it all together, love it.

[Mithras]

Crescent moon is also likened to a sickle, which might be related to harvests and sacrifices.

[J. Stargaryen]

Crescent moon is also likened to a sickle, which might be related to harvests and sacrifices.

:) Shh. Though I guess it would have been relevant to mention that because of the "like lovers at a harvest dance" simile. But yeah, I agree. The crescent moon-sickle link is pretty clear in ADwD, Bran III.

Cool thread OP! :)

I think the blue winter rose left in Winterfell when a daughter is stolen represents the wildling side of the Stark women. Lyarra's mother was a Flint, the Starks (whether they like it or not) are all tied up in the wildling royalty, backed up by the Flint's making an appearance at the Wall for the wedding and bringing a wet nurse. It's all connected and Jon is like the catalyst that brings it all together, love it.

Thanks. One thing to remember is that Lyanna's roses were almost surely never in Winterfell. I mean, once she received them from Rhaegar; once they were hers. They may well have been grown there. And I don't think it's a coincidence that Rhaegar placed them in her lap with his lance. An act which has nothing to do with wildlings.

We don't have any indication that the blue roses have anything to do with them specifically. It's not one of the commonalities in the blue rose parts of the story. But Stark girls and their sons are. In both cases, the fathers are from different cultures. Bael was a wildling, and Rhaegar was a Valyrian. I don't really see the wildling connection, tbh.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I pointed this out earlier today in the R+ L = J thread, taking the show GoT into consideration (not sure if it has been posted before). When Dany enters the HotU, there is a scene of her in the Red Keep throne room. It's covered in snow. And what is directly in front of her?

http://gameofthronesrp.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/543279_305164902904050_240720222_n.jpg

A blue rose.

The blue rose in the chink of the wall from aCoK.

That blue rose is over the throne in the whole season. Thanks for the bump towards RLJ HBO :)

[J. Stargaryen]

That blue rose is over the throne in the whole season. Thanks for the bump towards RLJ HBO :)

The rose behind the throne is red, I'm pretty sure. Though there are blue roses in other seven-pointed stars in the throne room. - Link.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

:) Shh. Though I guess it would have been relevant to mention that because of the "lovers at a harvest dance" simile. But yeah, I agree.

Thanks. One thing to remember is that Lyanna's roses were almost surely never in Winterfell. I mean, once she received them from Rhaegar; once they were hers. They may well have been grown there. And I don't think it's a coincidence that Rhaegar placed them in her lap with his lance. An act which has nothing to do with wildlings.

We don't have any indication that the blue roses have anything to do with them specifically. It's not one of the commonalities in the blue rose parts of the story. But Stark girls and their sons are. In both cases, the fathers are from different cultures. Bael was a wildling, and Rhaegar was a Valyrian. I don't really see the wildling connection, tbh.

Well it has been a pet theory of mine for a while, that there is something very important about the fact that Ned's wife was a Flint, Bael stealing a Stark girl and Lyanna getting carried off in the wildling way. The Starks have more connections with the wildlings than any other great house, I know it's significant in some way, and I think it has to do with the blue roses as well. I also think it is often looked over how important it was that the Flints came to the wall with a wet nurse for the wedding. Jon, nor anyone, ever once mentions that his grandmother was a Flint. Somehting is up with that.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

The rose behind the throne is red, I'm pretty sure. Though there are blue roses in other seven-pointed stars in the throne room. - Link.

This is the backdrop I am thinking of, there is a blue flower in the middle. I guess the backdrop changes every season. lol try a little harder editors.

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/99iKhXwbeuY/0.jpg

[J. Stargaryen]

Well it has been a pet theory of mine for a while, that there is something very important about the fact that Ned's wife was a Flint, Bael stealing a Stark girl and Lyanna getting carried off in the wildling way. The Starks have more connections with the wildlings than any other great house, I know it's significant in some way, and I think it has to do with the blue roses as well. I also think it is often looked over how important it was that the Flints came to the wall with a wet nurse for the wedding. Jon, nor anyone, ever once mentions that his grandmother was a Flint. Somehting is up with that.

But how? I agree with some of what you're saying, but I'm just not sure how it applies specifically to the blue roses. I know Bael was a wildling, but Rhaegar was a Valyrian. I suppose it could symbolize something like Jon, as the blue rose, including the wildlings in the 7K. I could see something like that.

But I guess I don't see the wildlings as standing out more than Rhaegar and the Targaryens do, in the blue rose symbolism. Rhaegar and Bael occupy pretty equal places in their respective stories.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

But how? I agree with some of what you're saying, but I'm just not sure how it applies specifically to the blue roses. I know Bael was a wildling, but Rhaegar was a Valyrian. I suppose it could symbolize something like Jon, as the blue rose, including the wildlings in the 7K. I could see something like that.

But I guess I don't see the wildlings as standing out more than Rhaegar and the Targaryens do, in the blue rose symbolism. Rhaegar and Bael occupy pretty equal places in their respective stories.

Well, it is just something I have been thinking about for a while now. I really need more info for it to become a full-on theory.

I guess mainly I think that the blue rose represents the result of Stark women being part wildling and running their own lives, and making their own decisions like Wildling women do. Jon is the ultimate result of this, so even though Rhaegar is not a wildling, he still represents Lyanna doing what she wanted instead of what was planned out for her. Same as the Stark girl who was abducted by Bael, in the end she left the child but never returned herself, same as Lyanna.

And even though all the Starks would have some wildling in their bloodline from Bael's baby onward in the family tree, the wildling blood was very much renewed by Lyarra being a Flint. Like I said, I dont have it as a solid theory yet, just piecing together really. but I very much like your thoughts on the blue rose as well.

[J. Stargaryen]

Well, it is just something I have been thinking about for a while now. I really need more info for it to become a full-on theory.

I guess mainly I think that the blue rose represents the result of Stark women being part wildling and running their own lives, and making their own decisions like Wildling women do. Jon is the ultimate result of this, so even though Rhaegar is not a wildling, he still represents Lyanna doing what she wanted instead of what was planned out for her. Same as the Stark girl who was abducted by Bael, in the end she left the child but never returned herself, same as Lyanna.

And even though all the Starks would have some wildling in their bloodline from Bael's baby onward in the family tree, the wildling blood was very much renewed by Lyarra being a Flint. Like I said, I dont have it as a solid theory yet, just piecing together really. but I very much like your thoughts on the blue rose as well.

The Stark girl in the Bael story probably lived her entire life in Winterfell. Remember that she was there when her son brought home Bael's head. That's why she jumped to her death. Also, the Flints aren't wildlings, but part of the mountain clans who live south of the Wall. - Link.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

The Stark girl in the Bael story probably lived her entire life in Winterfell. Remember that she was there when her son brought home Bael's head. That's why she jumped to her death. Also, the Flints aren't wildlings, but part of the mountain clans who live south of the Wall. - Link.

oh yeah sorry, I was mixed up, she came back with the baby.

And yeah the Flints arent 100% wildling, but closely related. Like I said it has holes and I need more info, but there is something here and it's connected with the blue rose.

[J. Stargaryen]

oh yeah sorry, I was mixed up, she came back with the baby.

And yeah the Flints arent 100% wildling, but closely related. Like I said it has holes and I need more info, but there is something here and it's connected with the blue rose.

They never left. They hid in the crypts the whole time.

They're Northerners and bannermen to House Stark. How are they closely related to wildlings?

[Suzanna Stormborn]

The words 'came back' definitely works for what I was saying. They were 'missing', then they 'came back'.

The Flint's live in the mountians, they refer to themselves as a 'clan', have a ton of the BOtFM, admittedly live closer to the wildling lifestyle than a family like the Starks. Rodrik Flint tried and failed to become King above the Wall, meaning king of the Wildlings. Also they have been raided by the wildlings many times and have had women carried off, there are many crossovers with the wildlings in the Flint family.