Jon Snow and the Blue Winter Rosetta Stone

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I gotta say, I really like this, after being wary looking at the title. I especially like your interpretation of the symbolism of the Harrenhal tournament, about how the crown of roses in Lyanna's lap can symbolize Jon being of legitimate royal birth.

One thing I'd take a bit further, which you touched on, is Ned thinking of the blue roses and those roses symbolizing Jon. A huge complaint I see from R+L=J deniers is that Ned doesn't think of Lyanna as being Jon's mother. I think it's possible, if your idea is accurate and it's intentional, and that the blue rose is Ned's "coping mechanism," his way to think about Jon without actively thinking of him and thus bringing up all that bottled up emotional grief, and also helping him to contain the lie — that Jon is his son — in his own mind. If he thinks about Jon as Lyanna's son directly, he runs the risk of slipping out of the front that Jon is his bastard. But thoughts about Lyanna and her death are inevitable, so what does he do instead? Sub blue roses for Jon.

And I don't blame you for leaving out the rose in Dany's vision. It's entered obviousville by now and all it seems to do at this point is fuel "Jon and Dany are gonna get married squeee!" nonsense. I think your theory works fine without it, and maybe even better, showing that GRRM isn't relying solely on the House of the Undying vision when crafting this specific image symbolism.

[J. Stargaryen]

I gotta say, I really like this, after being wary looking at the title. I especially like your interpretation of the symbolism of the Harrenhal tournament, about how the crown of roses in Lyanna's lap can symbolize Jon being of legitimate royal birth.

One thing I'd take a bit further, which you touched on, is Ned thinking of the blue roses and those roses symbolizing Jon. A huge complaint I see from R+L=J deniers is that Ned doesn't think of Lyanna as being Jon's mother. I think it's possible, if your idea is accurate and it's intentional, and that the blue rose is Ned's "coping mechanism," his way to think about Jon without actively thinking of him and thus bringing up all that bottled up emotional grief, and also helping him to contain the lie — that Jon is his son — in his own mind. If he thinks about Jon as Lyanna's son directly, he runs the risk of slipping out of the front that Jon is his bastard. But thoughts about Lyanna and her death are inevitable, so what does he do instead? Sub blue roses for Jon.

And I don't blame you for leaving out the rose in Dany's vision. It's entered obviousville by now and all it seems to do at this point is fuel "Jon and Dany are gonna get married squeee!" nonsense. I think your theory works fine without it, and maybe even better, showing that GRRM isn't relying solely on the House of the Undying vision when crafting this specific image symbolism.

Yes! I've been going back and forth on whether Ned actually thought of "pale blue roses" during his godswood talk with Cersei, or if he thought of Jon and that was one of GRRM's clues to us that blue roses = Jon.

BTW, you didn't like the title? :o :lol:

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I was just leery about what you might be getting at. But I was pleasantly surprised!

[Ser Wun Wun]

Importing this from the Moments of Foreshadowing thread, b/c the debate was clogging it up.

This is part of the misunderstanding with the BWR symbolism. People think that because the daughter is the rose, that the rose can only be the daughter. Think along the lines of sigils.

Look at this part:

Your expanding of the quote I originally provided did not change Ygritte's meaning at all. She is directly using winter roses as a symbolic representation of Stark maidens, this is very obvious. You're subsequent attempt at using a form of syllogism to imply that Ygritte is also casting the son as a rose as well simply does not make sense.

Bael took a daughter, but left a rose. Bael took a daughter, but gave a son. The son as payment for the rose indicates that the son is of equal value to the rose; i.e., the son = the rose.

By this logic, when Robett Glover was exchanged for Martyn Lannister they were saying that Glover = Lannister in value, therefore Robett is a lion....I hope you can see how this is some very flawed logic. The same goes for Fittlelinger's chicken=cow analogy in the MOF thread. Using something as payment for something else (because they are deemed equal in value) does not mean that something is now something else by some sort of weird transitive property (Good lord are we getting abstract here or what?).

Ygritte's meaning is very clear in that story: Bael asked for the most beautiful winter rose in Winterfell, he then took a Stark maiden (therefore she is clearly the rose he was referring to). He then offered a son as payment for the rose b/c the Stark girl was no longer a rose after he had "plucked" her. Therefore what made her a rose in the first place was that she was a Stark Maiden. Once she was deflowered and had the son, she was no longer rose...that is why Bael felt compelled to offer a son in payment, he had taken or "plucked" a rose and now "owed" a debt.

According to the text, if you want a symbolic blue winter rose you need at least the following ingredients: a Stark girl who gives birth to a son. Preferably one stolen by musically inclined royalty.

That's not true. Your insistence that any blue rose must represent Stark girl's who have a son b/c of the "commonalities" between the Bael story and Lyanna and Rhaegar's --- it's just not a prerequistite that Ygritte places on being a blue rose. As I just intimated above, having the baby actually made the Stark girl cease to be a blue rose according to Ygritte. What made her a blue rose was being a Stark and a maiden. That's it.

So this simple fact alone, Ygritte's use of a winter rose to directly represent a Stark maiden, makes both Sansa and Arya eligible to be the blue rose in Dany's vision. No babies required.

Also, you're insinuation in another post that winter roses must not be a common symbolic representation or "sigil" for Stark maidens b/c the Lord Stark In Ygritte's story didn't understand what Bael really wanted when he asked for the most beautiful winter rose in Winterfell doesn't hold up either imo. Lord Stark could simply be a dunce who didn't get the double meaning behind Bael's request, it just went over his head. Like if a man asked some Lord Lannister for the most beautiful Lioness in Casterly Rock, and the lord assumed he meant a real lion from his menagerie, when the man really meant his beautiful daughter. The lord not getting the meaning doesn't mean we can assume that Lioness's must not be a common "sigil" of sorts for Lannister girls.

ETA: Yes, this is subtler than the 'plucking' symbolism. But, you know, that seems about right in the story I'm reading. And if the winter roses can't be Stark boys, then what the heck did Rhaegar put in Lyanna's lap at Harrenhal? Because that's some awfully coincidental symbolism that doesn't work otherwise.

He put Jon in her lap (I think your symbolic analysis is correct), but here is where I don't think you are getting the subtlety of the point I am trying to make: While winter roses do not represent Stark boys in the same way that they directly represent Stark maidens, they can indirectly represent a Stark boy (like Jon) in that they serve to remind us of Bael's story in general, which ended with a "plucked" rose having a son (eerily similar to the Lyanna/Rhaegar situation). I still see almost all of the analysis you offered in this thread's OP as being valid, because I can see how the blue rose can indirectly be seen as a reference to Jon (which is why he can be the blue rose in Dany's vision as well. Indeed, I thought he was for a very long time until I reassessed what I thought these mount's of Dany's were in a general sense; not husbands, but rather people/things that lead her to places).

But you're argument that blue roses are some sort of secondary sigil to directly represent Stark boys like they clearly do Stark maidens, that is what disagree with, because you are basing it on some fallacious syllogism that skews the meaning of Ygritte's words when she tells the Bael story. She simply is not saying that Stark boys are roses in that story. Nor that Stark girls must have sons in order to be represented by roses. Ygritte is using winter roses as a direct symbolic representation (secondary sigil of sorts) for Stark maidens in that story, and I see no way for you to negate this fact, and therefore exclude Arya and Sansa from ever being blue roses b/c they don't have sons or musically inclined men to steal them.

[J. Stargaryen]

You did an awful lot of typing for an argument that boils down to "Ygritte said this!". Which is remeniscent of the highly intellectual argument that R+L=J can't be true because a lot of people say right in the story that Ned is Jon's father. Words rule, clues drool!

I know I invited Arya_Nym to post here earlier, so that was fine that you posted in this thread. However, upon second thought, I'd prefer to keep this topic Jon-centric from now on. Thanks.

[Ser Wun Wun]

You did an awful lot of typing for an argument that boils down to "Ygritte said this!". Which is remeniscent of the highly intellectual argument that R+L=J can't be true because a lot of people say right in the story that Ned is Jon's father. Words rule, clues drool!

I know I invited Arya_Nym to post here earlier, so that was fine that you posted in this thread. However, upon second thought, I'd prefer to keep this topic Jon-centric from now on. Thanks.

:rolleyes:

Since you made 12 posts on this subject in the Moment's of Foreshadowing thread, I felt like I needed all of 7 paragraphs (and 2 sentences) to cover the many arguments and aspects of the theory you touched upon. But you are totally right, you know. My argument that blue roses can directly represent Stark maiden's (with no requisite babies or rapist musicians) based on Ygritte's story is absolutely equivalent to R+L=J denial. By way of your patented transitive property I must therefore be an R+L=J denier myself! Thank you so much for that insight J. Starg!

But since you asked so politely, I'll never again dare to post an analysis on what the blue winter rose can represent in your....Jon Snow and the Blue Winter Rosetta Stone thread. :)

[J. Stargaryen]

:rolleyes:

Since you made 12 posts on this subject in the Moment's of Foreshadowing thread, I felt like I needed all of 7 paragraphs (and 2 sentences) to cover the many arguments and aspects of the theory you touched upon. But you are totally right, you know. My argument that blue roses can directly represent Stark maiden's (with no requisite babies or rapist musicians) based on Ygritte's story is absolutely equivalent to R+L=J denial. By way of your patented transitive property I must therefore be an R+L=J denier myself! Thank you so much for that insight J. Starg!

But since you asked so politely, I'll never again dare to post an analysis on what the blue winter rose can represent in your....Jon Snow and the Blue Winter Rosetta Stone thread. :)

I didn't ask you not to post here. I only asked that you keep it on topic from now on. As you noted, I named the thread Jon Snow and the Blue Winter Rosetta Stone. There's already an Arya/winter rose thread. Or you could start your own thread.

I don't see us making much progress. I reject the basis of your argument, for which I cited a well known example. You reject my use of symbolism, which you've mocked on more than one occasion. Does it really surprise you that I'm not keen on continuing this conversation with you?

[Prince of the Green]

:rolleyes:

Since you made 12 posts on this subject in the Moment's of Foreshadowing thread, I felt like I needed all of 7 paragraphs (and 2 sentences) to cover the many arguments and aspects of the theory you touched upon. But you are totally right, you know. My argument that blue roses can directly represent Stark maiden's (with no requisite babies or rapist musicians) based on Ygritte's story is absolutely equivalent to R+L=J denial. By way of your patented transitive property I must therefore be an R+L=J denier myself! Thank you so much for that insight J. Starg!

But since you asked so politely, I'll never again dare to post an analysis on what the blue winter rose can represent in your....Jon Snow and the Blue Winter Rosetta Stone thread. :)

I didn't ask you not to post here. I only asked that you keep it on topic from now on. As you noted, I named the thread Jon Snow and the Blue Winter Rosetta Stone. There's already an Arya/winter rose thread. Or you could start your own thread.

I don't see us making much progress. I reject the basis of your argument, for which I cited a well known example. You reject my use of symbolism, which you've mocked on more than one occasion. Does it really surprise you that I'm not keen on continuing this conversation with you?

I think you both have the right of it, though one thing that you both aren't touching on is the moment Ned find's Lyanna in her child(death)bed, when her hand lets sprinkle the dead, black petals to the floor of her room. This could be a way of showing how when once this blooming flower symbolized a Stark maiden, it no longer could be seen as such considering she has lost her maidenhead and has brought a child to term in her womb. At that point in time, the dead, black petals symbolized Lyanna, with every occurrence after this event of blue roses or blue winter roses meaning Jon.

I also interpret Ned telling Robert how he regularly brings flowers (presumably the blue winter roses) to Lyanna's tomb, he was actually speaking about Jon. We already know that the Stark children and the Snow child played in the crypt when all were younger, though we are not told if this was in any way a tradition amongst other Stark children/siblings. If not, then perhaps Ned allowed his children this activity, without himself or Catelyn, to let his sister look on the life that Jon had. When they weren't being watched by a very possessive mother, the children of Ned Stark and the child of Lyanna Stark were able to have some semblance of familial bonding.

Some might say, 'but we often see or hear of this sort of bond between the Starks and the Snow,' but it is, to my recollection, the only time when all six Stark-blooded children share in their fun. A lot of instances are seen with Jon and Bran, Jon and Robb, Jon and Rickon, even, but almost nothing of Jon and Sansa. And, while it wasn't Jon's best moment in Sansa's eyes, all six children were united in their game (I apologize for this paragraph, but one of the most interesting dynamics in literature, film, or television for me is the analysis of characters that have limited interactions with one another; even more so than characters that have obviously fluid, and often very engaging, relationships with one another).

[Black Crow]

I'm very much in agreement with the OP and subsequent supporting arguments and would just like to emphasise the point made about the significance of R+L=J isn't that Jon is the son of Rhaegar and the lost heir to the Iron Throne, but that he is indeed the son of Lyanna and a Son of Winterfell.

[J. Stargaryen]

I think you both have the right of it, though one thing that you both aren't touching on is the moment Ned find's Lyanna in her child(death)bed, when her hand lets sprinkle the dead, black petals to the floor of her room. This could be a way of showing how when once this blooming flower symbolized a Stark maiden, it no longer could be seen as such considering she has lost her maidenhead and has brought a child to term in her womb. At that point in time, the dead, black petals symbolized Lyanna, with every occurrence after this event of blue roses or blue winter roses meaning Jon.

I forgot to put it in my OP, but I've noted on a couple of occasions that Jon is both (presumably) dead and black (brother of the NW) at the end of ADwD. But your interpretation is something I'm going to think of. It's quite interesting, actually. It's almost a 'hand off', if you will.

I also interpret Ned telling Robert how he regularly brings flowers (presumably the blue winter roses) to Lyanna's tomb, he was actually speaking about Jon. We already know that the Stark children and the Snow child played in the crypt when all were younger, though we are not told if this was in any way a tradition amongst other Stark children/siblings. If not, then perhaps Ned allowed his children this activity, without himself or Catelyn, to let his sister look on the life that Jon had. When they weren't being watched by a very possessive mother, the children of Ned Stark and the child of Lyanna Stark were able to have some semblance of familial bonding.

^ This interpretation has also crossed my mind. I left out that reference because it was "flowers" instead of roses, but if those flowers are in fact roses, I do believe that Jon fits.

Eddard I, AGoT: “I was with her when she died,” Ned reminded the king. “She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father.” He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister’s eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched

his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it. “I bring her flowers when I can,” he said. “Lyanna was... fond of flowers.”

Some might say, 'but we often see or hear of this sort of bond between the Starks and the Snow,' but it is, to my recollection, the only time when all six Stark-blooded children share in their fun. A lot of instances are seen with Jon and Bran, Jon and Robb, Jon and Rickon, even, but almost nothing of Jon and Sansa. And, while it wasn't Jon's best moment in Sansa's eyes, all six children were united in their game (I apologize for this paragraph, but one of the most interesting dynamics in literature, film, or television for me is the analysis of characters that have limited interactions with one another; even more so than characters that have obviously fluid, and often very engaging, relationships with one another).

I like this.

[J. Stargaryen]

I'm very much in agreement with the OP and subsequent supporting arguments and would just like to emphasise the point made about the significance of R+L=J isn't that Jon is the son of Rhaegar and the lost heir to the Iron Throne, but that he is indeed the son of Lyanna and a Son of Winterfell.

My main theory has Jon becoming king based on Robb's will. He'll start as KitN, and go from there. I think R&L were married, but I'm not sure if there is any proof. Even if Howland Reed comes forward, Robb's will ought to be worth more than the crannogman's word. And of course there's the possibility that R&L weren't married.

[J. Stargaryen]

I've updated/added to parts 1 & 4, as well as given slight cosmetic makeovers to the Ned-Cersei godswood scene and the Bael the Bard story explanation.

Hat tip to The Ghost in the Snow for the inspiration to do so.

[Prince of the Green]

I've updated/added to parts 1 & 4, as well as given slight cosmetic makeovers to the Ned-Cersei godswood scene and the Bael the Bard story explanation.

Hat tip to The Ghost in the Snow for the inspiration to do so.

Thank you, sir. Glad to be of help!

[MtnLion]

When Ned arrives at the tower, he describes the scene as a storm of rose petals, blue as the eyes of death in a red streaked sky. Here I think Ned is substituting the sound of a baby crying for the storm of rose petals. Of course blue would be the correct color for Jon, and the eyes of death is how Ned interprets that sound. Rhaegar's son is going to cost many lives here or later. When Lyanna lets slip the petals in her hand, I have always thought that that is the representation of the baby that Ned allows in his mind. Dead is Lyanna, black was always Jon's color, letting us know his future. Just my two pennies. ;)

[J. Stargaryen]

The storm = baby Jon crying is a nice add, now that I think about it. I believe that because the wording is a "A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death." I only thought of storm as meaning windy. But a storm can also imply rain, and raindrops are nature's tears.

[jon stark I]

Did you ever think about I don't know Lyanna getting wounded as she was trying to save Ned and when she get wounded she cired Eddard?That makes a lot of sense I think.Eddard nearly gets killed Lyanna tries saving h,m and Arthur wounds her by accident then Howland tells Arthur he broke his vows which causes Arthur to give up or kill himself?Blue roses blew acroos sky when Lyanna gets hurt and that also explains the blood streaked sky.Not everything is realted to R+L you know.

[J. Stargaryen]

Did you ever think about I don't know Lyanna getting wounded as she was trying to save Ned and when she get wounded she cired Eddard?That makes a lot of sense I think.Eddard nearly gets killed Lyanna tries saving h,m and Arthur wounds her by accident then Howland tells Arthur he broke his vows which causes Arthur to give up or kill himself?Blue roses blew acroos sky when Lyanna gets hurt and that also explains the blood streaked sky.Not everything is realted to R+L you know.

No, of course not. Because this theory assumes, and revolves around, R+L=J.

[MtnLion]

The blood streaked sky could be Ned's foreboding of what a child's wailing would mean. He has just arrived, and hears a child crying, and if that child is Rhaegar's trueborn son, then he is the heir, and the Kingsguard are not going to surrender or withdraw. The only possible outcome is a bloody battle, and Ned may wonder if he has enough men, at that moment. It could also be telling us that the comet has passed, the star has bled, and the Prince that was Promised was born. I like both readings. ;)

[MtnLion]

. . . One thing I'd take a bit further, which you touched on, is Ned thinking of the blue roses and those roses symbolizing Jon. A huge complaint I see from R+L=J deniers is that Ned doesn't think of Lyanna as being Jon's mother. I think it's possible, if your idea is accurate and it's intentional, and that the blue rose is Ned's "coping mechanism," his way to think about Jon without actively thinking of him and thus bringing up all that bottled up emotional grief, and also helping him to contain the lie — that Jon is his son — in his own mind. If he thinks about Jon as Lyanna's son directly, he runs the risk of slipping out of the front that Jon is his bastard. But thoughts about Lyanna and her death are inevitable, so what does he do instead? Sub blue roses for Jon. . . .

I agree that Ned never thinks of Jon's mother, (father), or baby Jon himself directly. I do think that the blue flowers substitute in Ned's mind. And, when Ned Mentions to Robert that Lyanna was fond of flowers, he is really saying that Lyanna loved Jon. ;)

[NorthSouthEastWesteros]

Wow, great synopsis! Do you mind if I save it in my nerd ASAOIF theories folder?

When you reference Lyanna was 'fond' of the flowers and Rhaegar was 'fond' of Elia, do you mean that she was not necessarily hopelessly in love with him?