Becoming No One: Rereading Arya III

[Lyanna Stark]

Great posts people.

Nobody has taken a stab at a comprehensive food and clothing analysis yet? :)

ShadowCat,

I agree that Arya ties beauty to the role of a lady and that she does not really think of beauty as something that can belong to a non-lady, nor does she seem to really believe that she can take that role, not really.

[Ragnorak]

I've been mulling over this passage:

The next night they found shelter beneath the scorched shell of a sept

said the looters had even made off with the Mother’s costly robes, the Crone’s gilded lantern, and the silver crown the Father had worn. “They hacked the Maiden’s breasts off too, though those were only wood,” he told them. “And the eyes, the eyes were jet and lapis and mother-of-pearl, they pried them out with their knives. May the Mother have mercy on them all.”

There's a cycle of destruction here. The power of the red god destroyed the sept, which originally destroyed the trees of the old gods to build its statues of the Seven, which were destroyed by the tree worshipping savages.

All three female aspects are mentioned but only the father among the male aspects. The Smith, Warrior, and Stranger are absent and I don't know what to make of that. The stolen eyes and lantern both point to being blinded or lack of sight. Bloodraven tells Bran that darkness will nurture him, that it will be his mother's milk. That ties into the wooden breasts of the maid but I'm not sure how to read it. Breasts on a maid will do no nuturing. Arya is a maid but it seems she hasn't really develeped breasts yet even though that is hinted at in the overall theme of the chapter (Daphne23's arrested development comes to mind as one interpretation.) Destroying innocence is another way to look at it, but the wooden breasts do stand out more because they aren't an item of value like the other things.

Stealing a crown is a symbolic beheading. Ned was beheaded and these thieves are Karstarks and Robb beheaded Rickard. Arya also heard a prophesy about two kings dying (Renly and Balon if the common interpretations are correct.) Both of those dead kings were acts of kinslaying and the weirwood grove was destroyed by Erreg the Kinslayer. Bran references two stories about the Nightfort that may refer to Erreg.

This was where the Rat Cook had served the Andal king his prince-and-bacon pie

This was the castle where King Sherrit had called down his curse on the Andals of old

The Rat Cook would tie into the Red Wedding. The mother's robes being stolen connects with the prophesy of Cat's death where she is stripped naked and thrown into the river which is also a Red Wedding connection.

What confuses me most about the symbolism is that the crown and lantern are directly related to those aspects. The father is the head or king of the family and that symbol is stolen. The crone has the wisdom of age and experience represented by the lantern and that is stolen. Based on that theme the breasts would be cut off the mother not the maid. So there seems to be a metaphor beyond the simple destruction or theft of the associated symbol of the aspect even though some of that is present in the symbolism. The potential connection between Karstark men and Alys as a fake Arya later is also muddying these waters a bit for me.

[brashcandy]

Very interesting analysis Ragnorak. Concerning the mutilation of the maiden's breasts, one reading could be that it fits into the overall "woman as battlefield" motif that permeates Arya's experiences in the Riverlands. She sees women being raped and hears the horrifying stories of this violence. The maiden's treasure in this case is precisely her innocence, that like the landscape, is being ravaged and destroyed.

I'm also reminded of this exchange in the Vale between Randa and Alayne:

"You are prettier than me, but my breasts are larger. The maesters say large breasts produce no more milk than small ones, but I do not believe it. Have you ever known a wet nurse with small teats? Yours are ample for a girl your age, but as they are bastard breasts, I shan't concern myself with them."

Breasts are clearly associated with a girl's budding sexuality and development. For maidens, they are signs of their future potential as mothers, nurturers and lovers. I think Daphne's point about arrested development is therefore quite fitting in terms of the symbolism here, as the maiden now is halted in that progress towards traditional feminine roles, and as we see with the connection between Arya and death throughout the novels, turns toward a different path for fulfillment.

[Lummel]

Well if we at woman as a battlefield, and since the current rape thread has reminded me of it, I'll mention the image that Daenerys sees at the house of the undying of the woman being variously abused by the dwarves.

In Arya's journey in ACOK and ASOS we see parts of the reality of that vision as it is occurring / unfolding (?) in the Riverlands.

It is also symbolic of the new warfare. Nothing is respected, not even the gods. And we are made aware of the abuse of various religious types by wolves, lions and mummers.

[Ragnorak]

Lummel, Brash's post made me think of Dany's vision as well.

Wasn't there a post in PtP (Queen of Winter?) somewhat recently with a clothing analysis that included Arya's acorn dress?

On further relection I like arrested development. The dress has acorns on the bodice which really connects Arya to the wooden breasts being hacked off the statue of the maiden and all that Brash said so well it implies. Looking at the sept there is a theme of feminine aspects being stripped away. If we consider the torn sleeve at the forge with an arm being instrumental to the smith, combined with the sept imagery Arya has been stripped of all aspects of the Seven but the warrior and death. Lady Smallwood bathes and dresses her like a girl while speaking of her great-aunt. This gives us Crone/Mother/Maid in Aunt/Lady Smallwood/Arya. Yet while Lady Smallwood speaks of the traditional feminine pursuits of needlework and dancing we see how these have been transformed into waterdancing and swordfighting (again the Warrior and Death) for Arya showing how feminine aspects have been stripped away.

I like the arrested development angle because she has the seeds of wooden breasts on her dress not actual branches or symbols of wood. The implication is that the breasts will eventually grow, but not now despite all references here to emerging sexuality. She tussles in the yard like a boy. Lem reacts in an appropriate protective way for such an encounter between a boy and girl (especially a highborn captive) of their respective ages. Tom's song and wink also imply the dawning sexual nature of the encounter but the prevailing attitude is one of children playing. Arya is still a child and the gender barriers don't yet need to be enforced.

Her change in clothes echoes this too. Lady Smallwood bathes her again and does her hair. She is dressed in even finer and more delicate clothes befitting a woman over a small girl that out of necessity are exchanged for boy's clothes (hmm, Arya dressed in death? as her son died). Like the acorns the hint of womanhood is there but must be delayed as the sadness in the last line reinforces.

Lyanna, I'm still pondering the food. In general what strikes me is how much they appreciate this simple fare and the sense of comradery in the shared meal. While there's potential in Arya thinking she's a wolf and eating a sheep I suspect that's reading too much into it. Same with the wolf in sheep's clothing angle. She does wear woolen stockings but in Jon and Sansa the wolf in sheep's clothing was always a cloak. There's also an honesty and openess here that runs counter to that image too. Mutton over lamb also runs counter to a sacrificial image but doesn't have to rule it out.

[brashcandy]

This may be the post from QoW you're thinking of Rag. An excerpt:

We see both Arya and Sansa wearing gowns that are somewhat similar. I'd like to look at what stood out at me about the two dresses.

First, I find it very interesting that Arya is wearing a dress with acorns on it, and Sansa the one with leaves. Of the two Stark girls, it's been said that Sansa is the more "beautiful" one. She has "blossomed" into a woman so to speak--"fully flowered".

I took the acorns on Ayra's dress for the symbolism of---a green gown equaling "a green girl"---(young, untried) -and --acorns grow into trees. Also note the stockings are brown (like a tree trunk) and the dress is green (like treetops).

[Ice Turtle]

About the dresses, I'm going to quote myself. There is even more about it in Water motive thread. There is actually more interesting connection with Daenerys than Sansa.

Arya's three dresses - or about oaks, water and death again

This was already addressed briefly by ARYa_Nym, but I think that there were some important points that weren't mentioned. I'm going to speak about chapter where Arya meets Lady Smallwood and is given three sets of clothing.

0. Clothes she wears when she arrives.

In her cell, she stripped to the skin and dressed herself carefully, in two layers of smallclothes, warm stockings, and her cleanest tunic. It was Lord Bolton’s livery. On the breast was sewn his sigil, the flayed man of the Dreadfort. She tied her shoes, threw a wool cloak over her skinny shoulders, and knotted it under her throat.

1. Acorn dress.

"And afterward, they insisted she dress herself in girl’s things, brown woolen stockings and a light linen shift, and over that a light green gown with acorns embroidered all over the bodice in brown thread, and more acorns bordering the hem."

This dress is destroyed when she has a fight with Gendry. I wonder if this is repeating of stag (Baratheon) killing mother direwolf (old gods and childhood) theme.

2. Sort of lilac-colored dress with baby pearls

It was even worse than before; Lady Smallwood insisted that Arya take another bath, and cut and comb her hair besides; the dress she put her in this time was sort of lilac-colored, and decorated with little baby pearls. The only good thing about it was that it was so delicate that no one could expect her to ride in it.

Why sort-of lilac colored and not simply lilac colored? Could it be that we are dealing with an unreliable narrator here and the color isn't really lilac but something else, close enough, but Arya isn't able to describe it correctly? Though lilac itself can be describing few different color shades.

Lilac color and lilac associations doesn't seem to be all too positive in the books:

• “Illyrio is no fool,” Viserys said. He was a gaunt young man with nervous hands and a feverish look in his pale lilac eyes.
  

• His flesh was soft and moist, and his breath smelled of lilacs. - Cat describing Varys
  

• The denizens of Joffrey’s court had striven to outdo each other today. Jalabhar Xho was all in feathers, a plumage so fantastic and extravagant that he seemed like to take flight. The High Septon’s crystal crown fired rainbows through the air every time he moved his head. At the council table, Queen Cersei shimmered in a cloth-of-gold gown slashed in burgundy velvet, while beside her Varys fussed and simpered in a lilac brocade.
  

• Lady Nym looked graceful, dressed all in shimmering lilac robes and a great silk cape of cream and copper that lifted at every gust of wind, and made her look as if she might take flight.
  

• It made her angry to see Dareon sitting there so brazen, making eyes at Lanna as his fingers danced across the harp strings. The whores called him the black singer, but there was hardly any black about him now. With the coin his singing brought him, the crow had transformed himself into a peacock. Today he wore a plush purple cloak lined with vair, a striped white-and-lilac tunic, and the parti-colored breeches of a bravo, but he owned a silken cloak as well, and one made of burgundy velvet that was lined with cloth-of-gold.
  

I'm almost sure that this lilac colored dress is tied to Arya's time in Braavos. Interesting that cutting hair is only mentioned with the second dress. I always considered it weird. Why Lady Smallwood didn't cut her hair the first time? Well, maybe because it wouldn't fit with foreshadowing it was supposed to be.

Ah and of course that is another important detail about the dress - baby pearls. There is only one other case where baby pearls are mentioned:

• “Magnificence, you do not understand,” protested Reznak. “The washing of the feet is hallowed by tradition. It signifies that you shall be your husband’s handmaid. The wedding garb is fraught with meaning too. The bride is dressed in dark red veils above a tokar of white silk, fringed with baby pearls.” The queen of the rabbits must not be wed without her floppy ears. “All those pearls will make me rattle when I walk.”
  “The pearls symbolize fertility. The more pearls Your Worship wears, the more healthy children she will bear.”
  

• Afterward, as Jhiqui was patting Daenerys dry, Irri approached with her tokar. Dany envied the Dothraki maids their loose sandsilk trousers and painted vests. They would be much cooler than her in her tokar, with its heavy fringe of baby pearls. “Help me wind this round myself, please. I cannot manage all these pearls by myself.”
  

Arya's dress is too delicate, Daenerys' too heavy. Neither likes it. Maybe like in Daenerys case it will represent marriage, betrothal or role in life Arya will initially accept but later reject. Pearls may simply represent water motive, but maybe also association with the Black Pearl and Arya was supposed to be her apprentice, though this storyline might have been abandoned together with five years gap.Other types of pearls appear more often, so often I decided to put it to another post...eventually.

3. Dead boy's clothing

The only good thing about it was that it was so delicate that no one could expect her to ride in it. So the next morning as they broke their fast, Lady Smallwood gave her breeches, belt, and tunic to wear, and a brown doeskin jerkin dotted with iron studs. “They were my son’s things,” she said. “He died when he was seven."

The first two dresses belonged to Carellen who is in Oldtown. This clothing belongs to Lady Smallwood's dead son. We never learn his name. Iron also appears. Arya is most comfortable in this clothing, but we see that high price was paid for her to wear them. Maybe it's another foreshadow of Arya's death, but it can also mean that Arya will end up in position that was originally meant for her brothers and it will suit her fine, but price to be paid for it - her brothers' death.

4. and 5. sort of

Another two dresses are mentioned in this chapter in the song where the maid of tree refuses yellow silks and chooses dress of golden leaves.

About Arya's (lack of) breasts. She is barely ten at this point.

[Queen of Winter]

There are a few things I want to touch on if I may. Ragnorak, you mentioned the loss of the Crone's lantern--the lantern symbolizing wisdom. It made me think of the tarot card "The Hermit" who also carries a lantern and is associated with wisdom as well.

I wanted to share this:

• Alternatively, The Hermit may be the old man or woman, metaphorically, that we meet who gives us the insights or tools or training we need to confront the beasts of the forest, the sealed cave, the gated castle, the wormhole.
  

Could this also point to the Ghost of High Heart? (Getting bit ahead here though...)

• The Hermit is related through a cross sum (the sum of the digits) to The Moon. While The Hermit mostly integrates the lessons of the sunlit world, the Moon stands at the threshold of light and dark and churns the waters of life. In both cases, treasures can be uncovered through contemplation of what is brought forth. In both cases, monsters may be found.
  

The Moon is associated with water and the subconscious--which I think also ties into the pearls on the dress (thinking of pearls forming in their natural watery environment). The threshold of "light and dark" mentioned above could foreshadow the House of the B&W (yeah I'm getting too far ahead again here).

Pearls represent: Purity, honesty, innocence and integrity. There is also the phrase of "Pearls of Wisdom".

And think of how pearls are created: "The ragged, rough grain of sand, transformed over time slowly growing into a object of great value and beauty."

I think that describes Arya to a "T". :) Think of how she's said to resemble her Aunt Lyanna who had a "wild beauty".

Arya is not yet ready to don the lavender dress with the pearls on it. But I think perhaps by the end of the book we might see her become more comfortable with doing so

Edit: sorry hit the post button too quickly! :blushing:

[Lummel]

The Ghost of High Heart appears in this chapter too. It is interesting that she does not cry out against Arya here, seemingly she hasn't become aware of the Red Wedding yet.

ETA About the clothes

I look at the clothes business very differently. Clothes are something that you can put on and take off (I have noticed this), clothes are about roles and identity. You put on the white coat and hang a stethoscope round your neck and people think you are a doctor. Kleider machen Leute and all that.

We see Arya pushed through a variety of environments and playing a different role or taking on a different identity to survive in each one of them. Arya is like Mr Benn . Each identity has a separate costume. Each has distinct freedoms and limitations. When she puts on the dress with the baby pearls she has to behave in a demure and ladylike manner. The costume won't allow her to do anything else. When she rides with the bandits, she is dressed appropriately, when she is recognised as a lady in castle then she is dressed as such and feels she has to behave as such - she even remembers her manners!

ETA - Uncat, Eira sends her love and best wishes!

[Uncat]

About her beauty:

I think that Arya directly relates beauty with the lady's role that she is expected to fulfill. This is the reason she displays contradictory reaction to being perceived as pretty / not pretty.

On the one hand, she rejects the traditional role of the "lady" thus rejecting (for herself) all the related qualities/behaviours and in a way, she defines herself by embracing the oposite. She doesn't want to look pretty because she doesn't want to be a lady.

On the other hand, she has some serious insecurities about her mother's love for her, that originate from the "knowledge" that she has disapointed her by not meeting her expectations. She wants to be pretty as a way to please her mother in order to win her love.

Of course this is very sad, as we know how much Cat loves her - she 'd pay any price to have her girls back and consider it a bargain...

:agree:

Neglecting the apearance is the easiest way for a girl of her age to fight the role model others want her to fullfill. As others noted before, she does want to be a girl and in most diguises apears as a girl. And she also is a little concerned about her physical looks (Arya Horsface worked as a teasing because it stuck). But that is on a very basic level (do others like me or do they make fun of my eyes, ears, nose, hair, belly, whatever). For now she is a child who wants to be liked but does never think of her self as beautyfull or not because she did not yet discover the power of looks. Beauty to her is a matter of clothing and hairdoing you need for a certain role.

[Uncat]

In the previous chapter, they were talking about litteral dogs and she made a wish:

Later, she meets the Hound and we know how it ended. Her wish was fulfilled in a non-litteral way and, although it seemed like a situation to showcase the "be careful of what you wish for" saying, fate made it so to be a life-saving event.

In this chapter they are talking about litteral flaming swords, the ones that Thoros uses, with the wildfire trick, and Arya wishes that she had one, too.

Now, there is a lot of talking about a magical flaming sword that we have no idea what it is, if it's even a sword - there are quite a few interpretations and speculations.

Is her wish a forshadowing that she's somehow related with that flaming sword?

Personally I think it's more about GRRM throwing possibilities here and there to have us worder, but still...

Funny how most people expect a man as the flameswordwilding hero and how they all make bets on which woman this man will kill to create this sword. All so eager to shed a tear about the heros sacrifice (not about the death of the sacrificed one, mind you) before cheering along as he roots out the evil from the world.

I always liked the idea of Arya, the burning aria of this opera that brings the world back into balance.

Hope she gets the sword if there is a sword to get and what ever it turns out to be.

ETA

Thinking about it (and doing laundry gives you a lot of time to think), it does seem as if Arya gets alot of her wishes fulfilled. Being on her death list seems to be dangerous, she got the lion-killing dog, the gods seem to answer her prays (sometimes by not answering). And now she wishes for a flaming sword. Looks like she has a chance at it at least.

ETA

Lummel, thanks for passing on Eiras greetings. I haven't meet her since I went cold turkey on the Heresy-thread last summer.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

I don't have my book at the moment so I can't comment in detail, but this I find really interesting. This is one of the rare chapters in the books (after Game) where Arya is 'Arya Stark', rather than taking on another identity, and I find it interesting that it's so full of references to sex, love, puberty and adulthood. Arya tells us that she is nearly eleven, or, in other words, she's nearly the same age that Sansa was at the beginning of Game, and we know that while eleven-year-old Sansa was extremely naive, she was certainly moving away from childhood in her thoughts about romantic love, marriage and having her own children. Arya also wears a dress for one of the few (perhaps the only?) time since Game, and this makes Gendry see her in a different light. Is this the chapter with the heartbreaking exchange between Arya and Lady Smallwood at the end, when Arya apologises for tearing the dress because it was pretty, and Lady Smallwood tells her that so is she? If so, I think this may also be one of the few chapters where Arya is told something positive about her looks, despite the juxtaposition where she thinks that one reason Cat may not want her back is because she looks so awful (tragic, because of course Cat would never think anything of the sort).

I find all this interesting because it seems, by reverting to her 'childhood' role of Arya Stark - to reference the last chapter when Arya abruptly became a child again when discovered, and referred back to childhood memories - Arya is able to start developing again, and to look forward naturally to the next few years when she will grow closer to womanhood, and when sex and relationships will become a part of her life. There was a lot of emphasis at the beginning of the last chapter that Arya was 'no longer a child' but it seems to me that to properly begin to grow up again, Arya has had to go back to childhood before she is able to move on from it, reasserting a more natural course of development. Of course, we know this interlude as Arya Stark is interrupted, but we aren't there yet.

Interesting points and certainly logical, as it is expected that such experiences would have a serious affect to a child's development. But the last bolded part, "reasserting a more natural course of development", had me thinking... What would be Arya's natural course of development had this tragedy not befallen on her family?

Arya was never an easy child. By birth she had a predesigned role she was expected to fill but she didn't like it, she didn't have the required talents, and the talents that she has would be completely useless for that role. She was one of those kids that are doomed NOT to have a natural course under normal conditions, considering that, for any child, a healthy development includes to be encouraged (or, at least, allowed) to cultivate his/her talents and get a positive feedback for what they do well. In the context of her world, Arya could not have that, normally. I doubt she would get Syrio and sword training under regular circumstances.

Furthermore, becoming a woman would mean even more pressure on her to fit into the lady's role. It would be a huge personality oppression, like trying to fit your feet in shoes 4 sizes smaller. Linking womanhood to this, I believe it is possible that she would eventually reject her gender as well.

Sansa at 11 was looking forward to become a woman because she had embraced the role that was expected of her to play. And why not? She would be using her natural talents, following her innate inclinations in harmony and not in contrast to her personality.

The more I think about it, the more I 'm convinced that Arya has better chances for a more natural development into a woman now that she has to grow up on her own, thus discovering issues as sex and romance by herself without linking them with negative (for her) connotations and defining woomanhood in her own terms in a positive way.

*edited for typos

[Lyanna Stark]

Funny how most people expect a man as the flameswordwilding hero and how they all make bets on which woman this man will kill to create this sword. All so eager to shed a tear about the heros sacrifice (not about the death of the sacrificed one, mind you) before cheering along as he roots out the evil from the world.

Ah well it does fulfill the trope of the girl in the fridge, I suppose? :) Can't have women as heroes while a man is available? ;)

The more I think about it, the more I 'm convinced that Arya has better chances for a more natural development into a woman now that she has to grow up on her own, thus discovering issues as sex and romance by herself without linking them with negative(for her) connotations and defining woomanhood in her own terms in a positive way.

While I agree that Arya's path certainly sets her up for a different type of development and that this in the end will most likely be a net positive for her, I think a lot of her initial issues also derive from the fact that she is always in competition with Sansa. Had Sansa disappeared somewhere, off to be married, then Arya had been in a different position. She would have been the young lady in Winterfell and suddenly the one to "look up to" by all the other young girls. Arya as a lady is always so very much defined by her relationship with Sansa, also with Septa Mordane added in as a really nasty counterweight.

We also see Ned allowing Syrio Forel in Kings Landing, and had the Starks stayed in Winterfell, I doubt that Arya would have been super restricted there either. She loved riding, and apparently Lyanna was allowed to do that almost as much as she wanted, despite Richard Stark coming across as a far more conservative and ambitious father than Ned.

However, I think the point that Arya is now able to make her own path towards womanhood is a good one, and something worth keeping an eye out for in future novels, where she is somewhat older. :)

[ShadowCat Rivers]

@Lyanna, yes. Sansa represents the unreachable ideal that makes her "failure" more bitter. I have noticed that in real world, comparing a child to an other one who does better at school and using the later as an examble for motivation, not only does not work but also creates conflict between the two children.

Pressure would be still there though, by her mother and her septa who were determined to turn her into a "proper" lady. As far as we know, we can assume that Lyanna was raised and surveyed mainly by Old Nan, with more chances to do what she wanted behind her father's back. With Cat and septa Mordane, it would be more difficult for Arya, especially if she was the only girl there... Of course, Arya being Arya she would still find a way to do what she wanted :)

[Elba the Intoner]

Finally getting caught up here - yay! Great job Lyanna with everything going on in this chapter. I don't have much to add to what everyone has already commented on, but did want to mention something about the Ghost of High Heart.

Themes and Analysis, part 2: (I warned you, it's long!)

“Girl, you’ll be a woman soon”: To borrow from an old Neil Diamond song (famously used in

among others)

Ghost of High Heart: Well, we can’t really go through this chapter without mentioning the Ghost of High Heart and her prophecies. Judging by the weirwoods, the COTF lore, the dwarf woman’s own words and Arya’s reaction, it’s safe to say the Old Gods are involved here. Arya is even woken up by something that seems like a higher power.

Bloodraven, or more Divine powers?

The Ghost of High Heart is described as white with what seems to be red eyes! I never noticed that before but with this reread focusing on how the old gods might be guiding Arya (and all the Stark kids) this really jumped out at me. Her hair is white and her skin is white and her eyes seem red, just like a weirwood tree and Jon's direwolf Ghost, and of course she is the Ghost of High Heart.

Oh and re: "Girl you'll be a woman soon" - love that song!

[Mladen]

Reading through several last posts, I realized how happy Stark girls have to be for having parents like Cat and Ned. Both of the girls, despite their tragedy, remaied the pure ideal of what their parents were. Arya is so close to her family, she may have lost that connection to Starks as lords, but she will never forget her family - her brothers and sisters. And even know, when she thinks her sister is the oly living member of her family (sorry to jump way ahead), she remains loyal to her Stark side embodied in Nymeria and Needle. This chapter wonderfully depicts how she lost that Stark pride in herself, realising that she`s nothing more than a captive due to her last name (like Sansa understood she won`t be loved due to being Stark).

Also, we talked about womanhood and growing up to become woman. Sansa is in a way born to be lady, and there`s nothing shallow in that, and Arya is born to be she-warrior, but both of them wonderfully has parts of most beloved Stark lady - Lyanna. While Arya has inherited Lyanna`s looks, wilderness and ability to fight, Sansa has inherited Lyanna`s emotional strength (remember how she sadly said to Ned that she`ll marry Robert but she`ll never grow to love him). Also who hasn`t noticed that Lyanna and Sansa betrayed their families for love? And to be more tragic, their actions consequently led to their father`s deaths. More importantly, Sansa felt just like Arya (or better like Lyanna) by doing that. Arya, on the other hand, despises love. Not because she`s unable to love (for she loves her family deeply), she rejects the notion of doing what she`s expected in that way.I don`t believe that Ned would ever forc Arya to marry for someone she doesn`t want to, but he would have allowed her to choose. And I have no doubt that Arya would have been happy with her choice, not just of marriage than on the lifestyle she chose.

I am so interested to see where natural femeninity will lead Arya. She may have never become a wife or mother, but that doesn`t mean she can`t develop her female side. She will become an extrordinary lady, just not the lady everyone thinks she is supposed to.

[Uncat]

Ah well it does fulfill the trope of the girl in the fridge, I suppose? :) Can't have women as heroes while a man is available? ;)

Unless, it is an Alien, you are fighting. ;)

[Daphne23]

Interesting points and certainly logical, as it is expected that such experiences would have a serious affect to a child's development. But the last bolded part, "reasserting a more natural course of development", had me thinking... What would be Arya's natural course of development had this tragedy not befallen on her family?

Arya was never an easy child. By birth she had a predesigned role she was expected to fill but she didn't like it, she didn't have the required talents, and the talents that she has would be completely useless for that role...The more I think about it, the more I 'm convinced that Arya has better chances for a more natural development into a woman now that she has to grow up on her own, thus discovering issues as sex and romance by herself without linking them with negative (for her) connotations and defining woomanhood in her own terms in a positive way.

Really interesting points, and I largely agree, but with two caveats: firstly, I don't think that, as of Dance, Arya is on course for any kind of healthy development; indeed, I would argue that she is back in arrested development, but that is a topic for a later thread; and secondly, I have always been intrigued by the idea of what Arya would become if she had grown up 'normally' in Winterfell. I think the picture you paint is completely accurate, but something that has always troubled me slightly about Arya is the propensity to impulsive violence that we see as early as Game, before she has undergone any traumatic experiences. It's perfectly possible, of course, that Arya could become another Cat, learning to control her naturally impulsive and emotional nature, but it strikes me that that would be an even harder job for Arya than Cat, for two reasons: 1. Cat doesn't seem to have had any wish to fight or take up male physical pursuits, although she in many ways took on a son's role at Riverrun before (and probably after) Edmure was born, in terms of politics and being trained to rule and 2. Arya has had a more indulgent upbringing than Cat (see below).

While I agree that Arya's path certainly sets her up for a different type of development and that this in the end will most likely be a net positive for her, I think a lot of her initial issues also derive from the fact that she is always in competition with Sansa. Had Sansa disappeared somewhere, off to be married, then Arya had been in a different position. She would have been the young lady in Winterfell and suddenly the one to "look up to" by all the other young girls. Arya as a lady is always so very much defined by her relationship with Sansa, also with Septa Mordane added in as a really nasty counterweight.

I think this is also an excellent point, and I too can imagine that Arya's role in the castle would be very different once Sansa had departed. I would also make a hesitant guess than Arya's skills - her intelligence, social observation, mathematics and excellent memory - would be recognised more as she grew older and she would realise herself there's more to running a castle and being a lady then needlework, manners and dresses. It's also important to note that Arya does care about looks and wanting to look good, as we saw in Game, she just thinks it's impossible for her. As all signs point to the fact that Arya will be pretty good-looking when she is older (a trope I loathe - why can't Arya actually be plain, as her many talents don't rely on her looks - but that's another topic) it seems possible that Sansa's departure might actually have coincided into Arya 'blooming' into an attractive woman. Although clothes might still not be top of her priority list, I can see Arya being relieved that she's not ugly, and feeling much happier about her role in Winterfell in consequence. Yes, it would still be fitting a square peg into a round hole - but I don't think it would be impossible for Arya to adapt.

Pressure would be still there though, by her mother and her septa who were determined to turn her into a "proper" lady. As far as we know, we can assume that Lyanna was raised and surveyed mainly by Old Nan, with more chances to do what she wanted behind her father's back. With Cat and septa Mordane, it would be more difficult for Arya

IIRC, Lyanna was forbidden to fight by her father, Rickard. Ned is much more indulgent with Arya than his father was with Lyanna, and I think this is part of the problem. Septa Mordane is indeed a poisonous influence - putting Arya down and comparing her to Sansa, which, as we've discussed, is no way to bring up a child or to make them do what you want - but I'm far more willing to acknowledge that Cat was acting for what she thought was the best. Unfortunately, given the constraints of Westeros society, Arya would have had to fit into the role of 'lady' somehow (although I do believe that role has a wider remit than nine-year-old Arya or eleven-year-old Sansa ever realised.) Cat was trying to make Arya look right and behave right, not because she wanted to crush Arya's personality - I believe her later fond memories of Arya's untidiness and stubborness show that she loved Arya for who she was - but because she realised that the best chance of Arya being happy was in accepting this role as soon as possible. It's also worth remembering that Cat would have gone through a similar process herself. Raised in some ways as her father's heir, and with her naturally fierce personality, it must have been hard to adapt to womanhood, and I suspect that her worries about Arya stem to some degree from the fact that she sees a lot of herself in her. Ned's actions, although kind and understanding, simply delay the day that Arya must realise she can't take the path she truly wants in life.

I am so interested to see where natural femeninity will lead Arya. She may have never become a wife or mother, but that doesn`t mean she can`t develop her female side. She will become an extrordinary lady, just not the lady everyone thinks she is supposed to.

Yes, me too :) And that's why I completely agree with the central point, that events may conspire to allow Arya to have a much more positive future than the one she may have had if she'd stayed at Winterfell. I guess my deep concern for Arya at the minute overrides any positive hopes for her future, and that's why I'm wary of seeing her path at the moment as an empowering one. This of course may change in the last two books.

Edit: I realise I have slightly contradicted myself to an extent re. Arya's ability to be another Cat, but I'm going to leave it in, as I think both scenarios are plausible!

[Lykos]

Another excellent post Daphne23.

Isn´t it also often the case that younger siblings see the older as a rolemodel and put them on a pedestal, which can easily turn into frustration and rejection of that role, if they have a different predesposition or tend to a little impatience?

Regarding the acorn dress, acorns are a symbol of fertility and promise (like so many seeds) and they´re egg shaped which increases that symbolism. ( Also the german word for acorn -"Eichel"- also means glans) The oak is the holy tree of Donar, so they might allude to "male" and "female" traits being combined in Arya. Green also points to fertility and hope.

[Lummel]

On the clothing analysis I cannot stress enough that Arya does not choose either the Acorn dress or the baby pearl dress. They are both dresses belonging to Lady Smallwood's family which Lady Smallwood chooses to have put on Arya.

I feel a deep unease, that I would like to impress upon all of you, about assuming that the clothes tell us much about Arya. Lady Smallwood does not say 'hey Arya, our clothes chests are open to you, choose what you want to wear, whatever makes you happy' - what we get is: "they insisted she dress herself in girl's things" and later "the dress she put her in this time", in other words Lady Smallwood is doing the choosing and it runs against what Arya wants. They have to insist.

The clothes, I put it to you, reflect nothing of Arya save her size. The choice of clothes tells us the kind of things that Lady Smallwood thought it would be appropriate for a young lady, of very gentle birth, to wear in her castle. In other words it is about conformity to a role and role expectations. Which Arya rejects by fighting Gendry, tearing her dress and getting herself dirty again (she reminds me here of our old dog who also hated being bathed but delighted in getting mucky, she never realised the one would automatically lead to the other :laugh:) for which she is 'punished' by being bathed and dressed up again.

This is the same story that we saw when crossing the neck, before the Trident, before the dark days. Arya wants to play about, have fun, get dirty. At this stage in life she finds no delight in scrubbing up and looking smart.