Jump to content

Becoming No One: Rereading Arya III


Lyanna Stark

Recommended Posts

Despite Arya being my favourite character, I haven't had a chance to read this series of Arya threads (they are all so very long). This will be my first time commenting here.

It's going to cover a few sections of this thread..

Oddly enough Robert's dissatisfaction with ruling went hand-in-hand with the fact that he did get revenge, and still found no satisfaction in it. He hunted (rather than ruled) to try and take his mind off the emptiness of his life.

Hopefully you will take the time to "catch up." It's worth the extra time.

As for Robert (and perhaps Arya and others), the point I was making (and have made previously in this thread) is that revenge can never be satified. Even if captured and consumated it is never enough. As a "type," the hunter's or huntsman's self delusion continues as does the chase. Obtaining revenge does not destroy the desire or the need. It is not restorative, only destructive.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If we are looking for symbolism in this moment then ...

Clothing is often referred to as a second skin.

The fact she was wearing the "skin" of someone dead may also be foreshadowing Arya's eventual role as one of the Faceless Men, wearing the faces of other (dead) people.

To continue the clothing theme then: She starts off the chapter in a hood to conceal where they are taking her. The second skin blinds her but her eyes are open and they've adjusted to darkness to start the chapter.

The hood also conceals her true face from everyone else.

There's two ways to actually go with this:

1. FM forshadowing, they take her eye sight and give her litterally a second skin.

2. When she goes to sleep at night, she seeks out her "second skin" Nymeria and her true face is concealed.

The Hound is hooded as well and his hands bound, when his hood is taken off the flames make his scars look even worse than they do in the daylight. His skin is hiding his burns.

Beric removes his "second skin" after the Hound admits the unfairness of him wearing armor versus a man without. Removing his "second skin" shows his scars which clearly shows the Hound and Arya that he has survived mortal wounds. Though the Hound sees the wounds he doesn't show fear that Arya can recognize.

I could be completely not getting this right at this point but I seem to remember Cersi wanted Arya's hand off like Joke/Joffy was some Targaryen. Its not unreasonable that the Hound in the moment did the best thing for Mycah gave him a swift death rather than return him to the Queen.

We learn that in Jaime's chapter down the road, that Jaime at least was searching for her, and if he found her, he would've taken her hand off.

I forgot to mention that the Hound wasn't hunting Mycah, they were hunting Arya, Mycah was a squirrel and Arya was the golden squirrel. When the Hound appears to Ned he tells her "We didn't find your daughter but the day was not lost.."

~~~~

Another thing I don't think was brought up is: Thoros boasts about beating the Hound three times in tournaments with sword. Obviously it's because of the flames that he fears, when his life is at stake though, he fights the flames because he hates them more than death itself.

Gendry/Arya relationship

We don't get Gendry's POV but he believes Arya has the attitude that she's above him at the Peach brothel, where this trial is proof that she befriended a commoner and protected him from a prince.

My point is Gendry sees this trial, he sees her reaction to her low born friend being murdered by the Hound, which is some proof to him that she doesn't care about status.

Gendry grew up in KL where there's a clearer distinction than Winterfell. Perhaps if Arya talked about how her father's blacksmith occasionally sat at the high table with them, how she loved her brother Jon Snow most of all?

Is he really lying to himself at this point? I always thought that his line "I heard it from the royal lips. It's not my place to question princes." was more of a mockery to their "King's justice", to the system that allows him (and people like him and them, as well) to commit such actions unpunished.

I think it's only later, when he's gone to his personal firy hell, when he speeks out all the ways he has wronged her, in order to make her kill him, that he realizes how guilty he really feels.

Not only that they're claiming to be Robert's men, seeking to dull out Robert's justice, when in truth, Robert turned his back on crimes that the Mountain did when he took the throne.

Robert also turned his back when Ned confronted him about Mycah's death....

Ned acting as the King's Hand sends them out to do the King's justice but for Ned this is a breach for him because he's a Stark and his is "the old way"

Where is she taking ownership of ordering Mycah to train with her? In this chapter she says she told Mycah to run, but we don't see that in Sansa's POV. And Mycah himself says that she asked him to play, not that she ordered him.

In Sansa's POV she's drank more wine than normal and "everything happens all at once" and she's powerless to do anything to stop any of it. Also it's been quite awhile since the battle when Arya is trying to recall the details at the trial. She incorrectly names Joffrey's sword.

Asking and commanding? Is there much difference? Sometimes they serve the same purpose. Jon Snow points it out to a king, and Roose points it out to his bastard.

Arya's POV "it was all her[Arya's] fault everything bad that had happened, Sansa and Jeyne said so, if she'd never asked him to play at swords with her..."

later in the same chapter when Ned tells her needle is no toy she starts crying claiming it's her fault and her father tells her

"Grieve for your friend but never blame yourself. That murder lies at the feet of the Hound and the cruel woman he serves."

Jeyne and Sansa were picking on her little two older girl bullies, blaming her for it, but Arya would take her father's words to heart over her sister and Jeyne.

In Ned's POV he calls Mycah "her butcher's boy"

She never thinks of it as having ordered him to play with her so I don't see why she would think that she used her rank to some how intimidate him into doing as she says.

Joffrey has grown up in KL where there's a way bigger dividing line between royalty, court, high born people and common low borns. Arya has grown up in Winterfell with her father where half the time they ate with their father's men, and there was a rotation of them sitting at the high table with them so there father could "know his own men"

Arya isn't forced to give orders until the attack at god's eye. She's forced to tell people what their orders at Harrenhall occasionally because people can't read. Then when Gendry/Hot Pie and Arya get together she gives the orders with Gendry being a good advisor and Hot Pie a bad one.

Unless you believe that Mycah was blissfully blind to class and that his butcher father was an original, free spirit, it is very likely that Mycah was allowed to go train with Arya and freed from obligations to work due to the fact that Arya was a Lord's daughter. Arya doesn't have to order him, but she is a noble, if she asked, he'd go.

Is the butcher his father? Or is Mycah just a boy that helps him?

In the scene with Joffrey as we see from Sansa's POV, Arya does not tell Joffrey that she asked Mycah to train with her, she just tells Joffrey to stop. Hence she does not take ownership of the decision there. She does later when she points out that she asks him.

I hate to address this subject since it gets brought up all the time, but does it matter? We already saw Joffrey wanting to use live steel in Winterfell against Robb, now he gets to use a sword against a boy with a stick. Joffrey can command the boy to play swords with him. I don't see any way for Mycah to get out of this without getting scars.

It's also supported with how he admits to more things than killing Mycah. He points out himself the things he feels he is guilty of when it comes to Arya/The Starks. He killed Mycah, didn't do anything to stop Ned's execution and didn't help Sansa when she was beaten. Clearly in his own mind, these were wrongs he did.

Wrongs he did to her, to her family.

"You want me dead that bad huh?" .... he gives Arya reasons to want him dead even more, he's testing her not thinking she has it in her when we've already seen that she can kill when necessary(guard stableboy and she didn't hate them even).

Or he simply doesn't care if he dies or not, clearly he's at a low point in his life with not much to live for and he's just been burned again, which has him in clear pain physically and mentally bringing up the old trama of his memories of being burned.

I'm certain there are other things he regrets, but when it comes to confessing to "sins" comitted vs the Starks, these are the ones he seems to dwell on and look upon as transgressions.

I don't think we can say he regrets killing Mycah or watching Ned Stark die. At least not at this point, in this chapter he identifies Arya as "the little sister" ... the last time we see him he's getting drunk in Sansa's room asking for a song and offering to take her up North.

It's clear the Hound doesn't know what to do after leaving Joffrey's service, besides get drunk. A dog needs a master, maybe his idea is to take Sansa to her brother and join the fight in the Riverlands so he can kill his brother? Seems like a good plan for a drunk depressed man.

Arya/Hound relationship

Is this the first time they've ever spoken to eachother? At least that we've seen I suppose.

Arya wants him to die for murdering Mycah, the Hound says to her "don't you know that (everyone thinks) you're dead?"

Not only does the Hound get feed up with all the random accusations, but Arya gets feed up too, because she knows that the Hound killed Mycah. "Murdered Mycah" according to her father. When she does accuse him though, she's forced to identify herself to someone she hates. Last time she revealed her true identity to someone she "loved" and trusted and was betrayed.

Arya/Jaime parellel reverse similiar stuff

I pointed out awhile back how Arya/Geadry/Hot Pie seemed to be heading in opposite parrallel directions compared to Brienne/Cleos/Jaime. Those similarities are still there. Jaime/Brienne are currently headed to Harrenhall captives by the Bloody Mummers where Arya/Gendry were once held captive as well.

We know that Jaime was searching for Arya because the Queen wanted her hand taken off, Jaime reflects in a later chapter "if I had found her instead of the Starks..."

The last Jaime chapter he loses his hand for real and in this chapter we have the wolf incident again being discussed.

Soon after Jaime loses his hand he realizes that Catelyn's daughters might get returned the same way to Catelyn and he'd probably get blamed for it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't think we can say he regrets killing Mycah or watching Ned Stark die. At least not at this point, in this chapter he identifies Arya as "the little sister" ... the last time we see him he's getting drunk in Sansa's room asking for a song and offering to take her up North.

It's clear the Hound doesn't know what to do after leaving Joffrey's service, besides get drunk. A dog needs a master, maybe his idea is to take Sansa to her brother and join the fight in the Riverlands so he can kill his brother? Seems like a good plan for a drunk depressed man.

Well, the one thing the Hound seems to hate above all is cowardice. Battle cowardice, moral cowardice, people who lie to others and themselves out of fear.

This brutal honesty is his sort of trademark, that and honest brutality.

I think he does regret those acts deep down, because deep down he sees them as cowardly - he killed a child because his was unwilling to defy his masters. He let an honourable and brave man be executed by a spoiled coward of a prince. He did not beat Sansa himself, but he served alongside men who did and said / did nothing against them because of it.

This is compounded by the fact that he did what no warrior / soldier should ever do - he deserted under fire. (In his case, literally under fire.) In short by the time he reaches Arya and his trial, he's deeply immersed in self-loathing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I doubt Sansa and Jeyne mentioned Arya asking Mycah to play with her, that was minor point compared to her attacking Joffrey and Lady being killed.

Are you telling that Arya would feel no guilt and go on obvious if Sansa (who she hates at the moment) didn't talk to her?

Now we are both on the grounds of hypothesis. We don't really know, but I do believe that Sansa and Jeyne would point out something like "if you had stayed to have tea with the queen as you should, instead of going to play with the butcher's boy none of these would have happened". Remember that before the incident, Sansa and Arya had a quite heated dispute on exactly this issue.

And yes, I believe she wouldn't feel guilty. She would feel grief and anger, but not guilt. Why should she? It wasn't her fault. Should Bran feel guilty because he went climbing? Should Sansa feel guilty for telling the queen about Ned sending them home? I don't think so. None of them could predict what would happen...

No, that question was simple, there was clearly no undertone, she would need a crystal ball to see Gendry's reaction.

Yes, Arya didn't mean anything more than what she asked. It's all in Gendry's head. But I think there are clues about his feelings. The change of attitude when he learned of her identity is one. An other (more telling, IMO) is in lady Smallwood's smithy. They talk about swords, Arya says he could make swords for her brother in Riverrun and suddenly, he changes subject: "Riverrun... you look like a proper little girl now...". For someone who gives more importance in rank difference and/or has a more sharpened insight in other people's feelings, these clues may be enough. For examble, I think Sansa could have forseen that this simple question could be misunderstood.

*edited for spelling and grammar - where is the preview button?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On Gendry its also the case he is adrift again in an uncertain environment because of Arya, He was happy and from his perspective secure at the forge and it was Arya who got the other smith killed and told him they had to leave. Without knowing what happens the next time the place will fall it seems like Gendry might already be nursing an unresolved grudge that adds tension. He has been more or less following her orders for quite some time, an now her identity fully exposed Arya seems to act high handed. Her 'man' has done his duty and aided her, but rather than thanks she appears to reprimand instead.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, Arya didn't mean anything more than what she asked. It's all in Gendry's head. But I think there are clues about his feelings. The change of attitude when he learned of her identity is one. An other (more telling, IMO) is in lady Smallwood's smithy. They talk about swords, Arya says he could make swords for her brother in Riverrun and suddenly, he changes subject: "Riverrun... you look like a proper little girl now...". For someone who gives more importance in rank difference and/or has a more sharpened insight in other people's feelings, these clues may be enough. For examble, I think Sansa could have forseen that this simple question could be misunderstood.

There are definitely clues that Gendry is sensitive when it comes to topic of social status, but that question had nothing to do with that. Sansa is older so she would understand that he said it to protect her but that is as far as it goes. Personally I'm not so sure Sansa all that super aware of other people's feelings.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On Gendry its also the case he is adrift again in an uncertain environment because of Arya, He was happy and from his perspective secure at the forge and it was Arya who got the other smith killed and told him they had to leave. Without knowing what happens the next time the place will fall it seems like Gendry might already be nursing an unresolved grudge that adds tension. He has been more or less following her orders for quite some time, an now her identity fully exposed Arya seems to act high handed. Her 'man' has done his duty and aided her, but rather than thanks she appears to reprimand instead.

Arya lied to Gendry and Sam lied to Pyke and Mallister but in the end it was their own choices that lead them to leave Harrenhall or vote for Jon Snow. Arya had no authority over him at Harrenhall.

I absolutely disagree. Where does she acts high handed, aside from one time later when she is angry at him, because he leaves her? She didn't need Gendry to help her with escape from Harrenhall,he was actually slowing her down, she took him with her only out of loyalty because she thought that pack has to stay together.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On Gendry its also the case he is adrift again in an uncertain environment because of Arya, He was happy and from his perspective secure at the forge and it was Arya who got the other smith killed and told him they had to leave. Without knowing what happens the next time the place will fall it seems like Gendry might already be nursing an unresolved grudge that adds tension. He has been more or less following her orders for quite some time, an now her identity fully exposed Arya seems to act high handed. Her 'man' has done his duty and aided her, but rather than thanks she appears to reprimand instead.

Gendry has a chip on his shoulder about social class, generally, but especially with her. (Hilarious irony there, considering who his father actually is.)

He doesn't like Edric Dayne, and it's clearly some resentment going on that is to do with Arya, as if he thinks Arya's going to push him away in favour of some highborn boy.

It's funny, because Arya has no clue it's about her. She may have sharp senses, and can tell they don't really get along, but she has a blind spot with respect to these matters. Part of it is because she's not really old enough to get it,

but part is that she cannot imagine anyone competing for her attention.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Gendry has a chip on his shoulder about social class, generally, but especially with her. (Hilarious irony there, considering who his father actually is.)

He doesn't like Edric Dayne, and it's clearly some resentment going on that is to do with Arya, as if he thinks Arya's going to push him away in favour of some highborn boy.

It's funny, because Arya has no clue it's about her. She may have sharp senses, and can tell they don't really get along, but she has a blind spot with respect to these matters. Part of it is because she's not really old enough to get it,

but part is that she cannot imagine anyone competing for her attention.

Well put

Gendry was the apprentice for the best armorer in KL & dealt with or witnessed dealings with The King, lords and knights on a regular basis. He is aware of his station & doesn't have a clue that he is Robert's son.

but yet--he is home at a forge--it is his place of comfort, purpose & Arya is always pulling him away from that

and yet he is attracted to her

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Arya VII - ASOS

Chapter summary:

The chapter starts with a man dying. It continues with a small battle in which the BWB attacks a septry where the Bloody Mummers have set up camp. Both BWB and mummers are killed in the fighting, but the BWB prevail easily. Arya are observing with Gendry and a few others from a ridge. She notes that even though she loves swordfighting, shooting a bow is a useful skill to have.

I’m going to learn to shoot a bow, Arya thought. She loved swordfighting, but she could see how arrows where good too.

While Arya resents not being able to fight alongside the BWB, she has also learnt something about battles and how they work:

This was battle, and in battle you had to obey.

A pretty awful knowledge for a child to have, but still a sign of that Arya is considering her actions more carefully and not just rushing ahead. Combined with her thoughts on bows and arrows, it creates a rather utilitarian feel, that Arya now knows that rushing headlong in and waving a sword is pointless, and that a tactical approach is better.

That does not stop her from having vengeful thoughts though, when she hopes every single mummer will be killed. She thinks so hard on that she bites her lip enough to taste blood, turning it almost into a promise.

Once the fighting is done, there is a “trial” for the mummers where various people speak up about their crimes before they are hanged.

We get another taste of the BWB justice as well.

Lord Beric slammed his sword into its scabbard, quenching the flames. “Give the dying the gift of mercy and bind the others hand and foot for trial,” he commanded, and it was done.

Arya is not too pleased with the justice though, since it does not fit together with her list. She is unhappy about Beric’s and Thoros’ treatment of the Hound.

They should have hanged the Hound too, or chopped his head off. Instead, to her disgust, the outlaws had treated Sandor Clegane’s burned arm, restored his sword and horse and armor, and set him free a few miles from the hollow hill. All they’d taken was his gold.

The brothers in the Septry who were released talk about being “foraged” several times, first by Lannisters and later by others as well, and one of them talk about what seems to be a possible run in with the Tickler and he admits that he told the torturer where the gold was hidden. Thoros tells him he should have told where the gold was immediately, which in itself isn’t that interesting perhaps, but the way he expresses it may be.

”Brother,” said Thoros of Myr, “ the only shame was not telling them at once.”

Thoros and the brother serving the Seven may be of different religions, but Thoros still calls him brother. More on the religious blend of the Riverlands later.

Arya and Beric talk and Arya asks Thoros if he can bring her father back, but he cannot, and Arya is disappointed. They discuss ransoming Arya and Arya is doubtful her brother will pay her ransom. Beric and Thoros mean that Robb will pay the ransom and that Arya will be reunited with her mother. Arya makes Beric promise and he utters the following fateful words:

“Do you swear?” she asked him. Yoren had promised to take her home too, only he’d gotten killed instead.

“On my honour as a knight,” the lightning lord said solemnly.

As we know, Beric will fail at this, and the failure of knights and the institution of knighthood are central themes in many plot lines.

The knight theme continues with Gendry offering his services to the BWB and being sworn in as a knight of the hollow hill. At that point, Sandor Clegane appears from the rain. First, he states his case that he wants his gold back, but he has no luck with that. We then have a continuation of the knight theme when he mocks Gendry and asks Beric to make Arya and his horse knights as well.

Arya says she could be a knight if she wanted to and that she would have killed him had Lem not taken the knife away. The Hound then makes the following somewhat cryptic comment.

”Complain to Lem, not me. Then tuck your tail between your legs and run. Do you know what dogs do to wolves?”

Even if it turns out Sandor Clegane hadn’t killed any of the sentries to get close to them, they still sleep uneasily, and when Arya finally falls asleep she is soon woken by what seems to be something akin to a wolf dream. She hopes the wolves eat the Hound, remembering his cryptic comment about wolves and dogs.

The chapter ends somewhat like it begun, with death. In this case it is Septon Utt hanging from a tree though, while the brown brothers are burying the other dead.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Analysis:

BWB justice: It’s easy to see why Beric and his merry men are popular in the Riverlands. This chapter closely follows the myth of taking from the rich and giving to the poor, dispensing justice etc. and even Arya thinks the BWB’s goal is justified when they need money for feeding the poor since winter is soon on them. However, they also need weapons and armour, so this is hardly a Red Cross type of pacifist organisation either.

We also have Lem and other members commenting that the BWB are in fact outlaws.

”You won’t be stealing no kisses from a princess, nor riding in no tourneys in stolen armour. You join us, you’ll end with your neck in a noose, or your head mounted up above some castle gate.”

Anguy tells the Hound:

”We’re outlaws. Outlaws steal. It’s in the songs, if you ask nice Tom may sing you one. Be thankful we didn’t kill you.”

At the same time, Thoros comments on justice:

”Brothers, a trial by battle is a holy thing.

So the BWB has both facets. On the one hand they bring order and food to the Riverlands, on the other hand, they are also outlaws and outlaws steal and kill.

Religious tolerance and blending of religions:

It is well known in the Riverlands that Thoros, Beric and the BWB are followers of Rh’llor, yet Thoros still calls the monk from the sept “brother” and there seems to be mutual respect between almost all followers of the Seven and the followers of the Red God. We also have Beric knighting Gendry, which is normally something done in the light of the Seven. Further, we also have the BWB interacting with the Ghost of High Heart, which is clearly someone aligned with the old Gods and Beric in the hollow hill sits a weirwood “throne”.

Are we so used to religions in the real world being opposites and fighting each other that the “blending” of religions and religious imagery in ASOIAF feels alien? Do the religions in ASOIAF necessarily need to be opposites, or can they be expressions of different facets of spirituality? There seems to be interveawing of both religious imagery and believers, especially in the Riverlands and at the Wall, where all three religions are represented.

In fact, looking at the Riverlands in particular, things and people seem to often be aligned with more than one religion.

Arya’s sense of abandonment:

The most obvious here is Gendry choosing the BWB over her, and she is dismayed that he’s leaving her pack.

Jaqen was gone, though. He’d left her. Hot Pie left me too, and now Gendry is leaving. Lommy had died, Yoren had died, Syrio Forel had died, even her father had died, and Jaqen had given her a stupid iron penny and vanished.

Further, Arya doubts that Robb and her mother want her back. She thinks Robb is the more likely, and that her mother would maybe not have her, since she’s about as removed from ladylike behaviour as she could be. This is not the first time we have Arya considering that her mother does not want her back since Arya does not conform to how Catelyn had wished her to grow up, which makes Cat’s sacrifice for Arya and Sansa even more sad. It also enhances that there is a connection between Cat and Arya, and that Arya wishes for her mother’s love.

Further, we have Arya asking Thoros if he could revive Ned. Arya’s sense of abandonment, her loneliness and her wish to be back with her parents really burns in this chapter.

To get back at Gendry for abandoning her, Arya makes a point of looking down at him at the end of the chapter and tells him she doesn’t care if he wants to become some stupid knight, but of course we readers know that she does care.

Identity, rebirth and the high cost of sacrifice:

Beric and Thoros discuss the reviving of Beric and the cost in a (imho) singularly beautiful passage.

”Can I dwell on what my I scarce remember? I held a castle on the Marches once, and there was a woman I was pledged to marry, but I could not find that castle today, nor tell you the colour of that woman’s hair. Who knighted me, old friend? What were my favourite foods? It all fades. Sometimes I think I was born on the bloody grass in that groove of ash, with the taste of fire in my mouth and a hole in my chest. Are you my mother, Thoros?”

Who is Beric, at this stage? What he was is a fading memory. He’s made the ultimate sacrifice not once but several times each time brought back and “renewed” by Thoros, but what is it that is being brought back, and for what purpose? While Beric seems set on fighting on, it seems as if everything but that has been peeled off and there is only the fight left, but does he even know what he is fighting for? It reminds me of this passage of a similar nature, by JRRT from “Return of the King” (p 1226, Harper Collins 2004 anniversary edition, chapter “Mount Doom”).

”Do you remember that bit of rabbit, Mr Frodo?” he [sam] said. “And our place under the warm bank in Faramir’s country, the day I saw the oliphaunt?”

“No, I am afraid not, Sam,” said Frodo. “At least, I know that such things happened, but I cannot see them. No taste of food, no feel of water, no sound of wind, no memory of tree or grass or flower, no image of moon or stars are left to me. I am naked in the dark, Sam, and there is no veil between me and the field of fire. I begin to see it even with my waking eyes, and all else fades.”

In the movie, this paragraph

.

Beric is probably in a worse state than Frodo is, but the same destruction of who they are and their memories has taken place. The only things left are their purpose and the fire, but what are you fighting for when you cannot even remember what that feels like, and who you are?

Arya is on a somewhat similar path, in that she is destroying who she is, gradually. But hopefully she can find a path back to her family, to Winterfell, to her family and those she loves so that she will have something to live for that isn’t an emptiness filled with fire and vague, shadowy memories of what was. There was no going back for Beric, and not really for Frodo either, but there may yet be a way back for Arya.

Sandor Clegane:

Continuing from the last chapter, we now get another appearance from Sandor Clegane. The last time Arya saw him was when he was fighting under the hollow hill and beat Beric, but also got his arm badly burnt. Thoros proclaimed by the end of last chapter that Sandor was in hell. Being burnt, as Sandor has told Sansa before, is hell, and being burnt by fire seems to be part of his personal torment. So while Sandor’s life was saved by Rh’llor he was also “punished”, if we are looking at it symbolically. Fire also has a cleansing effect, but in this case it seems the torment is at the forefront.

When Sandor appears again, he also seems to lean on the gods having declared him innocent during the trial, but Thoros contradicts him.

”The Lord of Light gave you back your life,” declared Thoros of Myr. “He did not proclaim you Baelor the Blessed come again.”

Given all the discussions about “redemption” themes that have been going on about Sandor, Jaime et al, it’s interesting that Thoros himself who considers trial by battle a holy thing doesn’t think it clears the winner of all sins or anything like that, nor that it is an “instant change”, but instead means that there is a purpose in the future for the man who won. However, it won’t automatically make him a saint. It briefly summarises parts of Sandor’s character as well.

Further, we get Thoros commenting that Sandor Clegane is now without a “master” as he cannot go back to the Lannisters, his brother will not welcome him and Robb Stark wouldn’t want him. Without his money, he has nothing left. This is, as we know, an accurate description. It also stands somewhat as a contradiction to how Thoros himself proclaimed that the Red God had decided that there is still a purpose for Joffrey’s dog.

In addition to this, we get a couple more tidbits of information about Sandor Clegane, the Hound, which help illustrate his character further.

We get a continuation of how he loathes knights and knighthood, which we already knew. Even if he denies having any code of honour, he did not kill the sentry to get close to Beric, but slipped by when the sentry slept. We also have Beric and Thoros convinced that while Sandor would kill them without a second thought in a fair fight, he would not murder them in their beds.

Anguy tells the tale of how Sandor got all the gold, and while Anguy spent it all on whores, Sandor has most of his gold left, hinting at a more prudent personality perhaps? He does paint an interesting picture, Sandor Clegane. He comes across as a rude drunkard with issues in many of Sansa’s chapters, but we have also seen that he is extremely disciplined, focused, brave, a morning person (Tyrion and Eddard’s chapters in AGOT support this) and by no means stupid judging by his capacity to read people and as we’ll see in upcoming Arya chapters, he has no problem with deception when needed. He also has his own code of honour despite hating knights, which Thoros and Beric acknowledge.

All in all, we have been given a lot of information creating a very complex character for a non POV.

Foreshadowing and other small things:

Winter is coming, or has it already come?

The trees were mostly bare now, and the few withered brown leaves that still clung to the branches did little to obstruct her view.

This seems to indicate that autumn is over, or very nearly over, and winter is here.

Rh’llor or the Old Gods?

A mummer tree, Arya thought as she watched them dangle, their pale skins painted a sullen red by the flames of the burning septry.

Sure there is fire, but pale skin painted red, white and red, are the colours of the Old Gods. “A mummer tree” is also an interesting phrase but I cannot think of anything related to it.

Gendry’s heritage

Gendry as Robert’s son is lampshaded by Gendry himself saying that he was born to hold a hammer, reminding everyone of Robert’s wielding a hammer in battle.

”I was only a ‘prentice, but my master said my hand was made to hold a hammer..”

GRRM seems to delight in dropping ironic hints that Gendry is Robert’s son throughout Arya’s story line.

What do dogs to do wolves?

Yes, what do dogs do to wolves? Arya seems to find this statement a threat, but if we look closer, dogs are a domesticated version of the wolf, and they are closely related and not all too dissimilar. The reason dogs are useful animals for humans to domesticate is also that they are social animals with a strong hierarchy, which humans could exploit to socialise dogs (according to my special edition of the science magazine “Illustrerad Vetenskap” at least).

Further, dogs and wolves are closely enough related that they can interbreed and still have viable offspring, unlike donkeys and horses, for instance.

However, we do get the feeling from Sandor’s threatening Arya here that dogs do nasty things to wolves, but throughout ASOIAF, wolves have dominated dogs and not the other way around; starting with Ghost intimidating a much older dog in one of Jon’s first chapters in AGOT. Later on we learn that the direwolves unsettle dogs and that dogs bark when faced with them.

Metaphorically, Sandor as the Hound may have been aligned with the Lannisters to start with, but he has also acted as a guardian for both Stark girls, especially Sansa.

Judging by this, what dogs do to wolves is guard them and defer to them. It may have interesting implications for Ramsay Bolton’s dogs vs the Stark “wolves” in the end, too.

Many, many apologies for being slow with this chapter! I can't even blame a hospital visit since Jon Snow has yet to manifest. On the upside I had to look for and eventually found one of my English editions of LOTR. I own four in total, I think, but some are in the basement. :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

...So the BWB has both facets. On the one hand they bring order and food to the Riverlands, on the other hand, they are also outlaws and outlaws steal and kill...

thus was it ever so, at least so I learnt from

as a lad.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hello to every one again. My detox from ASoIaF abruptly ended with the onset of season 3, so I'm back.

A few comments on the chapter summarized. Once again Arya is subjected to the idea of death as the gift of mercy, after the men in the Stony Sept in the crow cages. The wounded and the dying are dispatched to end their suffering, a concept she is struggling with, even in the HoBaW.

As we know, Beric will fail at this, and the failure of knights and the institution of knighthood are central themes in many plot lines.

In sense, he didn't, however, not yet anyway. I am quite convinced, that Beric gave his life to revive Cat because it was the only means he had left of keeping his promise to Arya. Our little girl finds herself once again in the eye of the storm, where a child asking for an adult to tell her that all will go well has far reaching consequences and perhaps provide said adult to lay down his burden honorably.

Arya's comment about having to obey in battle seems to me as a bit of wisdom form Ned/Winterfell. The boys were constantly being drilled in combat/warfare and it seems likely that some basic concepts must have dripped down to the girls as well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Lummel, I am in awe of your linked movie clips. This almost tops the erotic and very disturbing pear eating link. :lol:

In sense, he didn't, however, not yet anyway. I am quite convinced, that Beric gave his life to revive Cat because it was the only means he had left of keeping his promise to Arya. Our little girl finds herself once again in the eye of the storm, where a child asking for an adult to tell her that all will go well has far reaching consequences and perhaps provide said adult to lay down his burden honorably.

Welcome back! :)

That is a good point. Going by Beric's confession about how he cannot remember much of earlier, I also assumed Beric somehow hoped that giving the Red God's kiss to Cat would somehow end him for good, as well, which it did.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"One just man can become an army" you know it has to be Beric's theme song!

:lol: Dear me.

Another thing in this chapter I did not mention, but it does have a few songs listed, and also the lyrics to "Rains of Castamere", which will play a more important role in Arya's arc later. It makes me wonder if Sandor Clegane, the rain and "Rains of Castemere" in this chapter work as a bit of foreshadowing for what is to come? We also have those three things together with Arya wondering if her mother wants her back, and Beric promising to bring Arya to her mother. Ominous!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What dogs do to wolves:

Up in the mountains, shepherds use a certain breed of pastoral dogs in order to protect their flocks from wolves. This kind of dogs are as big as wolves, even bigger, and when they fight they can kill wolves by breaking their necks with their teeth. The dogs' necks are protected by a colar of metal nails.

Of course, I doubt that these dogs would fare as well with direwolves!

I hope it was helpful :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

First of all, thanks so much to Milady for her wonderful analysis of the last chapter and thank you too Lyanna for the well done write up for this chapter. There does seem to be a continuation of some of the themes from the last chapter such as the notion of judgment and who provides the justice, but especially the mixture of religions as you noted here:

Religious tolerance and blending of religions:

It is well known in the Riverlands that Thoros, Beric and the BWB are followers of Rh’llor, yet Thoros still calls the monk from the sept “brother” and there seems to be mutual respect between almost all followers of the Seven and the followers of the Red God. We also have Beric knighting Gendry, which is normally something done in the light of the Seven. Further, we also have the BWB interacting with the Ghost of High Heart, which is clearly someone aligned with the old Gods and Beric in the hollow hill sits a weirwood “throne”.

Are we so used to religions in the real world being opposites and fighting each other that the “blending” of religions and religious imagery in ASOIAF feels alien? Do the religions in ASOIAF necessarily need to be opposites, or can they be expressions of different facets of spirituality? There seems to be interveawing of both religious imagery and believers, especially in the Riverlands and at the Wall, where all three religions are represented.

In fact, looking at the Riverlands in particular, things and people seem to often be aligned with more than one religion.

I noted that too with the description of the Sept on fire from flaming arrows shot by followers of R'hllor. Arya is watching this near a tree where there are no longer leaves to block her view and she can see clearly, which could be a nod to the old gods watching through the trees, especially when considered in conjunction with the red and white imagery that Lyanna mentioned. Specifically:

A mummer tree, Arya thought as she watched them dangle, their pale skins painted a sullen red by the flames of the burning septry. Already the crows were coming . . . She heard them croaking and cackling at one another and wondered what they were saying.
Also, just like at Harenhall, Arya imagines that the ravens can talk and wonders what they are saying. Maybe Bloodraven is watching what is happening through the ravens as well.

Then the rain comes and the rain puts out the fire in the Sept. Could these be the beginning of the rains that start becoming a deluge and severely delay Robb and co's journey to the twins for Edmure's wedding? Isn't there mention in one of Catelyn's chapters when they are traveling that it seemed like the skies themselves were trying to keep them from getting to the Twins? I remember reading that somewhere. It always made me wonder if the old gods were trying to send a message to Robb and Cat through the rain. If so then we have the symbol of the Faith of the Seven being set on fire by the agents of R'hllor, which is then quenched by rains sent from the Old Gods. Then the songs about rain ties this all together with the Rains of Castamere being the last one. This may be the most we have seen of the lyrics to the Rains of Castamere to date and it does have an ominous tone as if to send out a warning.

Also, I was struck by the specific mention of Ned fighting with the other members of the BWB alongside Beric, and later Gendry, who is really Robert's son (and as Lyanna noted we've been hit over the head with this not only in this chapter but in a few of Arya's chapters now), officially becomes one of them when Beric knights him. What is interesting here is that Ned Stark is the one who sent out Beric and Thoros in the beginning in Robert's name, and they are still supposedly fighting for Robert and refer to themselves as King's men. It's come full circle with the addition of a Ned and a son of Robert's now being a part of their group and brings us back to their origins. Ned Stark is the one who created the BwB by sending them out in Robert's name in the first place.

Finally, poor Arya's thoughts on how her mother and Robb wouldn't want her are heartbreaking.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...