Theory: the great other is R'hllor

[Manfryd Lothston]

Hold on just a cotton-pickin' minute! Are we so smothered in simplistic, juvenile comic book, anime notions that we see everything expressed only as a dichotomy? Why should we bash everything into that old tired mold? We have enjoyed the richness of world-building and the wonderfully shocking plot twists of the story. It even physically affected us when our lead character Ned was executed.

[ice/fire, good/bad, R'hllor/Other, black/white, hero/villain, north/south, hot/cold, us/them, winter/summer, walkers/dragons, east/west, either/or.]

We already know that Martin likes to make everything gray, no character is all good or bad. He likes to toy with our preconceived notions and blast them into smithereens. All this discussion of good gods/bad gods is playing right into his scheme. There is no good or bad in this story.

So then I guess characters like Gregor Clegane, Vargo Hoat, Craster, Biter, Rorge are not "bad", right? They're complex souls with many redeeming qualities which are just misunderstood by the misguided majority? And the "long night" when humanity was almost wiped out - that wasn't totally a bad thing, correct? There were also positive aspects to it, such as... hmmm.... huh, nothing comes to mind, how surprising.

My opinion is that this kind of new-ageism is in itself a preconceived oversimplification that doesn't do justice to Martin's work. Denial that people can be "evil" or "good" is as much tunnel vision as declaring that all people are either "evil" or "good". All kinds of people can exist, including the blackest villains and the noblest heroes, as well as everything inbetween, and Martin's sprawling epic has examples from all parts of the spectre.

Furthermore, R'hllor is not a person. He is a deity, which by definition means an ideal or personification of certain aspects. So a god of evil would logically be completely about evil, and a god of justice only concerned with justice. It's in their nature, as opposed to mortals who are by default not limited in their choices.

And on top of that, R'hllor is not presented as a deity of pure goodness even by his own acolytes. He is rather a deity of the "greater good" which can and does demand sacrifices. He is about life and survival of life as a whole, not necessarily each individual life. Conversely, the Great Other is about total extinguishing of all life, but to achieve his goal he can use living agents and even return a semblance of life to the dead.

Tl;dr: "there is no good and evil" is itself an preconception; R'hllor is a deity, not a person; the Red Faith is by definition dualistic; R'hllor is not a god of goodness and mercy even in his own faith, but he does aim for the greater good/survival of humanity.

P.S. Also on dualism: the saga is called "A Song of Ice and Fire", the dualism is in the title itself.

[Qyburn0896]

could it be that the Red Priests and their practices are the perverted fruits of a faith that was originally righteous, but that have been corrupted and brutalised over time? According to this theory, the lord of light exists but the Red Priests have interperated the legends and myths in the wrong way

I've had these thoughts recurringly, but they end up in a different place.

-The original faith was 'righteous' in that it was a righteous lie. TGO's initial push had more meaning than it does today, just like the point of the Night's Watch did. The original point of the Night's Watch was to use the Wall to keep out Others. Just as the original point of valar morghulis was specific to the death cult of R'hllor. Only later after thousands of years had the saying 'valar morghulis' spread and become a common saying on Essos.

[Team Martell]

I tend to think that the Great Other and the Red God are two sides to the same coin. They both represent extremes — one ice and one fire — and must be overcome. I don't think that one is "good" or one is "bad." They're reflections of each other.

Cheers to that.

[Qyburn0896]

P.S. Also on dualism: the saga is called "A Song of Ice and Fire", the dualism is in the title itself.

Bran + old gods warg dragons = fire.

R'hllor + suckers die = ice

Duality.

Everybody's happy :)

[The Ghost Beyond the Wall]

Could it be that the old gods of the north are what melisandre sees as manifestations of the great other in westeros and that the Starks and the Northmen who worship them are all servants of the Great other? And by extension could that mean that she herself is a follower of the great other if her power increased incredible when she came to the wall a place of cold and death which are traits commonly associated to the great other? I still think that both the great other and the red god are two sides of the same dualistic coin

[JLE]

It wouldn't surprise me at all if the eventual point of the magical/mythical conflict that is going on here, is that the balance between opposites - ice and fire, life and death, light and dark - is what's out of whack: and that, similar to Ursula LeGuin's "Earthsea", it is at least *someone's* attempt to cheat or banish death that has been a major contributory factor.

Even if death can be cheated by "a life for a life", you might call that a fair deal in magic, but it is only a fair deal if the life that dies when they should live is given in *willing* exchange for the one that lives when they should die.

Which is also why I think the whole Azor Ahai / Nissa Nissa story is not a question of mythical magic gone right in a "harsh-but-necessary" way, but mythical magic Gone Horribly Wrong: and that was was done wrong once before, must be done right this time, or else the cycle of disaster will repeat again, with nobody having learned anything.

Examples in favour of this theory:

- Craster giving his sons to the winter / the Others. A terrible crime against nature: human sacrifice AND kinslaying, and compounding it by incest with his daughters. When he dies, the remaining daughters fear that Craster's sons will come for them. Worse still, the Watchmen collaborate with him, rather than finding other allies among the wildlings (and, in doing so, probably make more enemies among the wildlings, Craster being pretty much outcast and beyond the pale for other wildlings.) It is noticeable that Jon Snow does not eat at Craster's table after learning even a part of what goes on there.

- Melisandre looking for blood magic in murder by shadow, and human sacrifice by fire - especially sacrifice of a king. It works in some ways, after a fashion, but look at what it brings with it. Stannis's own energy was dangerously depleted by Melisandre drawing it off to create the shadow: more practically, her deeds cause Stannis to be hated and feared by others, and alienates many of those who might otherwise have followed him. (In fact it is noticeable that he is better served by those who serve him *despite* Melisandre, than by those who serve him *because of* her.) Interestingly, she herself is beginning to have doubts that we have never seen before, and I think she will in the end realise just how wrong she is. And have to make some great, symbolically significant deed of *atonement*. Such things usually require significant sacrifice of one's self - wealth, time, soul, health, life or whatever.

- Daenerys commanding that anything be done to bring back Drogo. In fact she would offer her own life, but Mirri tricks her into giving that of her unborn son instead (double tricked because Dany is made to believe, at first, that the horse will be sufficient.) But the son was inhuman, hideously deformed and had the stub of a tail - one can assume that he had pretty much no life to give: the "life for life" price was paid in false coin anyway. Mirri may not even necessarily have known this at first, but rejoices in it afterwards. Still, her own life freely given at least would have been a worthwhile exchange: the son's, taken by force, would not.

- Thoros bringing back Dondarrion half a dozen times, the first at least by accident. It is obvious to all, even Dondarrion, that he is coming back "wrong", less and less is coming back each time, and he reaches a point where he asks Thoros not to keep on doing this, because he knows it is wrong.

- Doubly compounded by , when Dondarrion finally gives up his life, what little he has is given to what used to be Catelyn, brought back from several few days' dead. Look what a sick parody of herself she has become.

- One could even think of the practice of incest (by Targaryen and others) as being a case of trying to resist what is both change, death and rebirth, over several generations: keeping everything including all the genes in one family, trying to hold on to what should be let go of. It brings madness and deformity to generation after generation. And yet the Targaryens *still* do not see it, even after the death of their last dragons with all the classic symptoms of too many generations of inbreeding. How long before Dany realises *she* is the curse, or representative of it?

- Let's think on how long Brynden Bloodraven has lived, and what he has become - and will turn Bran into, even if he himself gives up his own life to as it were "pass the torch" to Bran (and perhaps he acquired the position a similar way from a previous human greenseer?). I think Bran will have to die, and die with nobody to replace him in his position, as one important thing (possibly among several) that needs to be done to restore the balance.

Life and death are both necessary. In the end, death must be given its due, as well as life its. Winter is not only coming, but *must* come - once a year.

[ThornlessRose]

My view/theory has been for a long time that BOTH are good, and BOTH are bad. In other words they are dualistic only in their elements, neither is right or wrong. More importantly, the real conflict is that since the Dawn War, The Others have been shut out, and this destroyed the balance between Ice and Fire, creating the out of whack seasons. The original Long Night, what caused it, Im not sure, but I think it was of course that event that caused the First Men to turn on The Others and try to shut them out, seeing them as the cause. They began to rely on Fire magic for a time to fight them, including the power of Azor Ahai. When the war was over the Children of the Forrest tried to restore the balance by ending fire magic and building the wall, but it was never the same, and the seasons were forever out of whack. I think then when the Targaryens came to Westeros, bringing Dragons and Fire magic, they threw the balance off even further (though there is nothing to say the seasons got worse when that happened), but the Dragons died out before it became a massive problem. What is now causing BOTH sides, Ice and Fire, to suddenly reawaken, I have now idea, but I think this will all end with the balance being restored, and the seasons becoming normal.

I completely agree. Without going into too much depth, I think the "old gods" are like Judaism, the seven "new" gods play like Christianity. Rhi'llor and "the Other" with no name IS the same god. The direct parallel is the Creator of the Bible who created GOOD AND EVIL for His purposes. Two sides of the same coin. Within the context of Biblical mythology, I'd say that Jon (along with Sam) are primed for the roles of the two witnesses while Dany is the "Bride of Christ" figure. The white walkers are the first incarnation of the "Bride of Christ" -- the 7 churches of mentioned at the beginning of Revelation that were around during the first century, while Dany and her group are the second incarnation, the Bride mentioned later on in Revelation. This is why the white walkers are the undead, having achieved "eternal life". Also ice/water as death symbolically with fire and blood (judgment and life). it's two sides of the same coin. The life goes until death then rebirth. A cycle. An engine of sorts. Good and evil function the same way. They move the puzzle pieces along, but it's two sides of the same force.

I agree with your theory. For what it's worth, I think that Rhi'llor is the shadow of the Other. The realm is currently in a sort of spiritual "night" or darkness. How else could they so callously be fighting for a throne that will win them little but another opportunity to become a target? What is coming to Westeros is actually "day" -- a rebirth of the ideals they claim on the surface (honor, duty, family, love, etc etc etc) that have been lost in the clamoring for power.

[jandslegate]

The Great Other is a Cthulu-like Kraken trapped in a frozen sea in The Land of Always Winter.

[Qyburn0896]

'm not sure why you think this would be an "earth-shattering twist" though... If you're taking a mysterious and fairly evil character at her words... well that's just strange of you - it seems to me Mel is set up very clearly to be someone not to trust so everything she says would be suspect and thus a revelation that she was wrong or lying is not a twist for the readers. If anything Mel being 100% correct would be the biggest twist possible.

Because in one fell stroke, there would be no god to oppose the god of the white walkers.

And in one fell stroke, all or most of the fanatics that have been recruited south of the barrier would become cultists who worship the white walkers.

Rather than a flawlessly logical twist for the readers that you're talking about, this would be a realization to that world that they are all completely ****ed. And to the readers too. Because, mistrust Melissandre or not, and believe in gods or not, there's no denying the white walkers are a power that needs to be contained. And in the back of their minds most readers are counting on R'hllor to do something, to at least show up and take a piece out of the Great Threat. This becomes more obvious if you ascribe to the idea that the Game of (Iron in particular) thrones is a huge red herring, doesn't matter, and in the end the game itself will expose the fatal frivolity of the players.

And if you're caught up, you certainly must have realized by this point that the old gods are the good guys. They've had hardly any fanfare. They're virtually forgotten. Except for the north who remembers. If you're looking for who the good guys are in a series of books where it's not obvious, default to humility.

[Kienn]

Because in one fell stroke, there would be no god to oppose the god of the white walkers.

And in one fell stroke, all or most of the fanatics that have been recruited south of the barrier would become cultists who worship the white walkers.

Rather than a flawlessly logical twist for the readers that you're talking about, this would be a realization to that world that they are all completely ****ed. And to the readers too. Because, mistrust Melissandre or not, and believe in gods or not, there's no denying the white walkers are a power that needs to be contained. And in the back of their minds most readers are counting on R'hllor to do something, to at least show up and take a piece out of the Great Threat. This becomes more obvious if you ascribe to the idea that the Game of (Iron in particular) thrones is a huge red herring, doesn't matter, and in the end the game itself will expose the fatal frivolity of the players.

And if you're caught up, you certainly must have realized by this point that the old gods are the good guys. They've had hardly any fanfare. They're virtually forgotten. Except for the north who remembers. If you're looking for who the good guys are in a series of books where it's not obvious, default to humility.

Uh sure, if Mel (or whoever R'hllorists get their orders from) suddenly tells them all "Oh hey guys, we actually worship these ice monsters" it would be quite a diegetic twist for the R'hllor fanatics.

That would actually be surprising for me since it wouldn't be at all believable, it would just be terrible writing from what I think is a great author... I was saying that the power behind R'hllor could be secretly in league with the power (or it is the exact same power) behind the Others, in order to create a world where it has control. Basically it distracts people with a threat it creates in order to win their allegiance.

And again, no I haven't personally committed to the idea that the Old Gods are the "good guys" because again, it is set up to be vague.

Basically, if you choose in this story to "pick a side" in all these cases, then yes I'm sure you will experience some twists. And yes I'm sure that that is how many people read it because that's what they're used to from other novels. I think there are however many many people that at this point have realized this series is different and recognize that neither the Old Gods nor R'hllor have really been set up as the "good guys". I find my enjoyment in the clues about each of them being bad, and each being good and the suspense in finding out the truth.

My "default" would be neither "god" is good or bad and they all just want more power and neither are even related to the Others, with the Others just being a separate faction vying for power. So both "gods" are against the Others and each other.

[Qyburn0896]

I was saying that the power behind R'hllor could be secretly in league with the power (or it is the exact same power) behind the Others, in order to create a world where it has control.

Ok, I missed that the first time around. That's not a bad theory. Credit given.

And again, no I haven't personally committed to the idea that the Old Gods are the "good guys" because again, it is set up to be vague.

...

neither the Old Gods nor R'hllor have really been set up as the "good guys".

Here I think you're not hearing my point. There's nothing vague about R'hllor or the seven when compared to the Old Gods. R'hllor is written as a faith that vehemently demands attention. So are the Seven. The fact that the old gods even exist in 1/7 of the Realm, and are so little focused on, serves as a tipoff in itself. When are they ever discussed at large? When do characters make threats about the consequences of defying them? How much emphasis is given to the consequences of following them? Hardly any. Comparing the vagueries of RH/7 vs OG, it's not even close. The old gods are portrayed as virtually forgotten, they're directly linked to Bran's storyline. That's what you shouldn't ignore.

if Mel (or whoever R'hllorists get their orders from) suddenly tells them all "Oh hey guys, we actually worship these ice monsters" it would be quite a diegetic twist for the R'hllor fanatics.

Exactly why they are portrayed as so over-the-top culty imo. There's a reason a writer writes things, and I think this is why Davos, a good man, lost his children to a cult despite all his efforts to be good. I think it's why that religion in particular is shown to be gaining momentum all over the world despite the readers being clued in on it not being a good religion. It's destined to be the great evil of the story.

I respect your opinion that the religions in this series will be downplayed so that it can be a sort of a moral lesson that reflects on our own society. I'm an atheist myself. I do think it's a possibility. But I hope it doesn't happen because it would be boring and trite. And I predict it won't happen, because it would be boring and trite but also because of the innumerable hints I've read that suggest it won't. Martin may be be this or that in terms of social politics but I think (and certainly hope) he's a compelling writer first and above centering his magnum opus on it.

[randompsycho]

R'hllor is the super-dragon that destroyed Valyria. The great other is an ice-dragon in the far north.

[Imp Riker]

They’re never far, you know. They won’t come out by day, not when that old sun’s shining, but don’t think that means they went away. Shadows never go away. Might be you don’t see them, but they’re always clinging to your heels.

-Tormund talking to Jon in chapter 58 of ADWD. I would ask you kindly to recall that Melisandre told Davos that shadows were servants of the Lord of Light back in ACOK. Hope this helps with your theory!

[Black Crow]

It wouldn't surprise me at all if the eventual point of the magical/mythical conflict that is going on here, is that the balance between opposites - ice and fire, life and death, light and dark - is what's out of whack: and that, similar to Ursula LeGuin's "Earthsea", it is at least *someone's* attempt to cheat or banish death that has been a major contributory factor.

Even if death can be cheated by "a life for a life", you might call that a fair deal in magic, but it is only a fair deal if the life that dies when they should live is given in *willing* exchange for the one that lives when they should die.

Which is also why I think the whole Azor Ahai / Nissa Nissa story is not a question of mythical magic gone right in a "harsh-but-necessary" way, but mythical magic Gone Horribly Wrong: and that was was done wrong once before, must be done right this time, or else the cycle of disaster will repeat again, with nobody having learned anything.

On the whole I'd very much be inclined to agree with you, but would make the following comments about your examples:

- Craster giving his sons to the winter / the Others. A terrible crime against nature: human sacrifice AND kinslaying, and compounding it by incest with his daughters. When he dies, the remaining daughters fear that Craster's sons will come for them. Worse still, the Watchmen collaborate with him, rather than finding other allies among the wildlings (and, in doing so, probably make more enemies among the wildlings, Craster being pretty much outcast and beyond the pale for other wildlings.) It is noticeable that Jon Snow does not eat at Craster's table after learning even a part of what goes on there.

Craster is very much misunderstood. He is, as he emphatically declares, a godly man and does right by the (cold) Gods. He does this by sacrificing what is most precious to him - his sons. This is why he gives up his sheep when he has no sons to offer. He has a taste for mutton so he's giving up what he has. This in turn is why he's so embittered - its precisely because he's he's given up everything he's ever cared about, and far from recognising he's making that sacrifice he's shunned and reviled by all. Except perhaps Mormont...

Just as a minor point, the women don't fear that Craster's sons are coming for them, but for their brother - Gilly's baby.

- Melisandre looking for blood magic in murder by shadow, and human sacrifice by fire - especially sacrifice of a king. It works in some ways, after a fashion, but look at what it brings with it. Stannis's own energy was dangerously depleted by Melisandre drawing it off to create the shadow: more practically, her deeds cause Stannis to be hated and feared by others, and alienates many of those who might otherwise have followed him. (In fact it is noticeable that he is better served by those who serve him *despite* Melisandre, than by those who serve him *because of* her.) Interestingly, she herself is beginning to have doubts that we have never seen before, and I think she will in the end realise just how wrong she is. And have to make some great, symbolically significant deed of *atonement*. Such things usually require significant sacrifice of one's self - wealth, time, soul, health, life or whatever.

Agreed up to a point. Unlike Craster, Melisandre is apparent;y sacrificing nothing, although arguably she herself has already been sacrificed when turned into Fire made Flesh.

- Daenerys commanding that anything be done to bring back Drogo. In fact she would offer her own life, but Mirri tricks her into giving that of her unborn son instead (double tricked because Dany is made to believe, at first, that the horse will be sufficient.) But the son was inhuman, hideously deformed and had the stub of a tail - one can assume that he had pretty much no life to give: the "life for life" price was paid in false coin anyway. Mirri may not even necessarily have known this at first, but rejoices in it afterwards. Still, her own life freely given at least would have been a worthwhile exchange: the son's, taken by force, would not.

This one's actually a lot more complicated than it looks. Its not entirely clear exactly what MMD originally intended, but the net effect was a complicated swop of souls. Drogo was indeed raised as requested, but as a wight. His soul appears to have gone into the dragon egg which later hatched as Drogon. Similarly what Dany birthed was not her son but the contents on one of the dragon eggs. His soul was presumably hatched as Rhaegal. The trio was then completed by Danaerys sacrificing MMD, whose soul then hatched as Viserion.

- Thoros bringing back Dondarrion half a dozen times, the first at least by accident. It is obvious to all, even Dondarrion, that he is coming back "wrong", less and less is coming back each time, and he reaches a point where he asks Thoros not to keep on doing this, because he knows it is wrong.

- Doubly compounded by , when Dondarrion finally gives up his life, what little he has is given to what used to be Catelyn, brought back from several few days' dead. Look what a sick parody of herself she has become.

Agreed

- One could even think of the practice of incest (by Targaryen and others) as being a case of trying to resist what is both change, death and rebirth, over several generations: keeping everything including all the genes in one family, trying to hold on to what should be let go of. It brings madness and deformity to generation after generation. And yet the Targaryens *still* do not see it, even after the death of their last dragons with all the classic symptoms of too many generations of inbreeding. How long before Dany realises *she* is the curse, or representative of it?

Not so sure about this one. The incest business is clearly undesireable but I don't think it fits the pattern

- Let's think on how long Brynden Bloodraven has lived, and what he has become - and will turn Bran into, even if he himself gives up his own life to as it were "pass the torch" to Bran (and perhaps he acquired the position a similar way from a previous human greenseer?). I think Bran will have to die, and die with nobody to replace him in his position, as one important thing (possibly among several) that needs to be done to restore the balance.

Agreed, Bryn Blackwood is a Corn King who should have been put into the earth a long time ago and the question is whether he has refused to go until he has identified a "worthy" successor, or whether it is the Children who have kept him alive until they could get their hands on one. Bran is clearly Bran the Blessed of the Mabinogion, whose head (well the rest of Bran's body is useless so effectively he is just his head) was placed under a hill to watch over the Island of Britain, but even Bran had to die when his time came.

Life and death are both necessary. In the end, death must be given its due, as well as life its. Winter is not only coming, but *must* come - once a year.

:agree:

[Billfred]

I remember reading a theory that a dragon is frozen in the Wall. I want to take that to a whole other plateau by saying what if R'hllor is frozen in the wall? The Horn of Winter supposedly awoke Giants from the earth. It is also disputed whether or not he woke actual Giants or some other giant mythical beast or being. Since the horn has the power to bring down the Wall, I don't think that they were literal Giants. Maybe the horn awoke the two gods? This would also explain why Melisandre's powers increased when she went to the wall.

Also, another black horn that we know of in the story is Dragonbinder, which controls Dragons. The Age of Heroes, took place before Dragons were known to the Westerosi. Dragons to a Wildling may seem like Giants, the first time he saw them.

So, what if... the Lord of Light... is actually a Dragon frozen in the Wall whose presence has been misinterpreted throughout the ages? If not a Dragon, then some Lovecraftian styled entity. Honestly I don't think it's GRRM's style to add Cthulhu into the current mix, but who knows? And as for the Great Other? There may not even be one, but if there was, and it was a Dragon, too, then that would be sweet.

Sorry if this is too off-topic, but this was my first post on the forums, and this thread is too damned interesting for me to not contribute. And I am also sorry if this theory was also stated before; there are a lot of them...

[James March x2]

Was Bran having such a vision during night?

Because in such a case, looking further north and north, he would have eventually seen the Sun on the other side.. which is undeniably connected to R'hllor.

[Arya kiddin']

Was Bran having such a vision during night?

Because in such a case, looking further north and north, he would have eventually seen the Sun on the other side.. which is undeniably connected to R'hllor.

He did not see "around" the world, he saw "beyond" the world. Anyhow, do we even know that Planetos is round?

[James March x2]

He did not see "around" the world, he saw "beyond" the world. Anyhow, do we even know that Planetos is round?

And "beyond" a spheric planet in the north direction based on flat coordinates - during the night - you see the sun.

What else could it be? Nibiru?

[Arya kiddin']

And "beyond" a spheric planet in the north direction based on flat coordinates - during the night - you see the sun.

What else could it be? Nibiru?

What I meant was, he saw something supernatural, beyond the curtain of the world. Have you read LOTR? That would give you a sense of what I'm talking about. Even Narnia would.

[Manfryd Lothston]

What I meant was, he saw something supernatural, beyond the curtain of the world. Have you read LOTR? That would give you a sense of what I'm talking about. Even Narnia would.

Bran saw the "Heart of Winter", which I assume is a (possibly extra-dimensional) citadel of the Others, protected from greenseers by special anti-scrying/anti-shapeshifter traps (the spikes with the bodies below).

The Wall, as I see it, is a product of Children-of-the-Forest magic (they were adept with manipulating land and sea), to protect themselves and the rest of the world from their brothers who have turned to evil ice-magic and became the Others.

There is a possibility that both the Great Other and R'hllor are actual physical beings (e.g. ice and fire "megadragons") who exist in a semi-suspended state deep underground (G.O. in the far north, R. in the south, possibly under Valyria). But I find it more likely that these two are cosmic, elemental forces who manifest themselves in various ways (including, but not limited to, dragons).