From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa XIX

[Mladen]

Just a quick digression from Elba`s brilliant essays. In the past couple of days, I was Don Quijote against armies of Sansa haters, and this thread has been brought up many times. I hope I had as success as Aragorn had slaying all those Orcs, but I need Legolas or Gimli :). I have answered on a post about this thread and I think that if any of you, ladies and gentlemen, have anything to add, please do so

Here`s my Reply to Woman of War`s post about this thread

If anyone wants to add something, please do me an honor, and if you can help me in this Don Quijote`s battle.

Elba, I am sorry for this derailment. People, continue discussing the great work dear Elba has done

[Lyanna Stark]

I find discussing serious things in the TV Series forum about as productive as pulling nails or debating atheism with a Jehova's witness. Every time I make the erronous judgement to post anything there, I tend to regret it.

I find myself more excited by the Eurovision than by the GOT episodes. :dunce:

[Woman of War]

I had posted this in another thread, about the series. Only there my question was a bit off topic so I try it here again:

I have a very honest question, something I have trouble to understand. And I do not want to come over as polemic, I truly want to know.

People who write all those deep analyses about Sansa often think that those posters who like Sansa a little less are somewhat belittling female suffering, are even antifeminist or misogynistic.

In my case it is right the contrary:

I see that there are so many wonderfully written female characters in the books, beginning with Cat who obviously has a huge impact on the story. There is Dany, Cersei, the Queen of Thorns, Arya, Brienne, Asha etc.

All those characters, frankly, are much more fascinating to me than the character Sansa. Many of these characters have a complete female life, a biography that includes sexuality, children or loss of children, serious moral dilemmata, power, family, evilness, .... all that. Sansa has little to offer here so far, not on principle but in comparison to those other characters I chose as example. And I would, if I had the time and dedication, choose one of those women protagonists for those sometimes wonderfully written literature essays, psychological analyses or flaming defense. Of course everyone is free to choose his or her favorite but why is it Sansa for some of you? Meaning why not Dany, Cat or Brienne? The Sansa fandom strikes me as far more emotionally involved than other threads about favorite characters, there is so much identification in it. Forgive me if you see me as offensive, I have to formulate a little directly since I would like answers that I can really grasp (and I am not a native speaker which makes me blunt): some posters seem to identify with Sansa in an erotic manner, literallly seeing themselves in her shoes, dreaming themselves into her body. They thus do far more than cool literary, psychological, political analysis, there is an element of worshipping, of infatuation in it. This maybe is what fandom is and I am only too detached or "worldly-wise" for it, poor me.

But now comes the point where I get somewhat annoyed: why is that kind of fandom not dedicated to a character who has all those experiences in her female biography I described above? Why a character that is so "unfinished", so much without defining edges?

I hope, and I say my excuses if my little superficial theory is seen otherwise, that "Sansa" or "SanSan" fans are not offended. But I believe it is precisely the aspect of "unfinished" that leads people to project all kinds of theories and analyses onto the character Sansa. She can be filled with hopes, prognoses, erotic daydreaming, she can serve as vessel for projection because she offers the space for it, while characters like Cat or Dany are already very much defined, some projections are simply not possible anymore because there is far too much material given from Martin that forbids several paths an analysis could take. And this kind of fandom The Sansa character gets is impossible because those other characters are edgy and fleshed out, not every interpretation is possible anymore. Tell me if I am wrong here.

So often I read wonderful contributions in the PtP thread, deep and imaginative, with hugely interesting source material - only they seem to be about an imaginary character that is not in the books, having gone so far away from the text about the real existing book character Sansa, being filled with hopes of what may be, may be written by Martin if he should ever have intended that. Plots where Sansa might, might arrive or not some day, just like many other characters. So much, sorry, wishful thinking. I do not mind if posters clearly tell their hopes and dreams for their favorite character. Only in every analytical text there should be a clear distinction between textual analysis and the subjective factor like hopes and unilateral interpretation of foreshadowing. I probably am too uptight but I cannot free my mind from the restrictive thinking in terms of correct application of scientific methods, sorry.

In short: why is the fan community of Sansa so different from the fans of other characters?

There are so many strong women in the text, love them, worship them, dream of them, be infatuated! Why not those, why Sansa?

Please, I really want to understand. I promise not to answer polemically but to simply read and learn and only to write back if something is beyond my language comprehension.

[Mladen]

snip

I have been kind enough to answer on this post once, but please don`t push things more. This is becoming really unpleasent. I think most of the people here will agree what I have said, so I don`t see the point of continuing this pointless discussion.

[Woman of War]

Sorry, but your post had been deleted for being in the wrong forum.

Why is this discussion pointless? I am seriously interested and had a politely phrased question.

But if you like you could pm me your answer.

[Mladen]

Sorry, but your post had been deleted for being in the wrong forum.

Why is this discussion pointless? I am seriously interested and had a politely phrased question.

But if you like you could pm me your answer.

I can`t because it was indeed long post. Second, politely phrased question? It was offensive, rude, not to mention condescending and you accused us of basically writing fanfiction. For God`s sake, understand that you are offending people and that no one wants to discuss anymore things that were said like a 1000 times.

And the only reason I am doing this is to spare ladies of this thread of having to deal with you and your accusations.

[WinterKing]

Mladen, I agree with you, but let's forget it, or this wonderful thread may be locked.

[Lummel]

...In short: why is the fan community of Sansa so different from the fans of other characters?

There are so many strong women in the text, love them, worship them, dream of them, be infatuated! Why not those, why Sansa?...

If Sansa fans collectively are getting away from the text then I think this is something they have in common with all fans of all characters. I suspect there is something fundamental about the nature and purpose of being a fan that always makes this so to some greater or lesser extent. At least as I would define it fandom is a variety of or involves idealisation by the fan of the object.

Perhaps ASOIAF invites identification because the POV structure puts you in or close to the characters shoes yet leaves spaces that the readers imagination can or even has to fill on occasion for the character to be explicable.

The difference about Sansa enjoyment on this site is that it has managed to maintain a continous thread which other fandoms haven't, perhaps this is in reaction to Sansa dislike - but that hasn't led to the appearance of clusters of Catelyn or Daenerys supporters.

On the other hand if you are looking for a woman in ASOIAF to celebrate then really your choice is down to Arya, Daenerys or Sansa since they are the only female POVs whose stories run all the way through the series, so perhaps the emergence of this exceptional series of threads is really not something to be surprised by?

[Silverin]

Sorry, but your post had been deleted for being in the wrong forum.

Why is this discussion pointless? I am seriously interested and had a politely phrased question.

But if you like you could pm me your answer.

Because you generalise.

Generalising a whole group based on one single thing, in this case that they like Sansa, and making assumptions about people you know nothing about is always ugly.

How would it feel if I said, I think tyrion fans must be hypocrites with a lot of unresolved insecurity issues, since they can relate to him? They must be just as deluded about their own flaws as him, and must try to shift the blame onto other people becuse it is easier to say people are shallow (again that wonderful generalisation) than to face their own mistakes.

Now reading this think about trying to solve the mystery that there are people who find Sansa a great character while you don't.

The answer is, there is no mystersy. There is no big answer there. The reasons can be hundreds. Sansa is one of the main character so of course she will be in focus, and she will have fans.

And saying that she isn't finished while others are is not true.

You mention Dany, how is she finished? There are people who think she will be the big savior while other think she will be the main villain, her path is nowhere finished, if the opinions are so polarising her character cannot be set into stone.

Neither is tyrion for that matter. there are people who think that he will end up ruling in luxory while others think he is a lost case.

The thing is the speculations are said about every single character. Don't tell me you never wrote a post about wishful thinking about tyrion's future, or speculate where he might go, because I am pretty sure I remember.

How about we just stop generalising and making assumptions about people we know nothing about based on their favourite charcaters.

[Lyanna Stark]

In short: why is the fan community of Sansa so different from the fans of other characters?

There are so many strong women in the text, love them, worship them, dream of them, be infatuated! Why not those, why Sansa?

Please, I really want to understand. I promise not to answer polemically but to simply read and learn and only to write back if something is beyond my language comprehension.

Can't answer for everyone and Lummel already gave a very good reply.

The Sansa re-read thread came about partly because of the massive Sansa hatred that was pervasive on the board. (That was before Dany hatred became FOTM by the way.)

One of the reasons why the Sansa re-read threads are therefor so popular is because they manage to bring to light the unusual qualities of Sansa as a fantasy heroine. Often Sansa is dismissed because she does not fit any of the traditional fantasy heroine stereotypes. Due to this and her more traditionally feminine demeanour she often gets completely disregarded as a damsel in distress, a victim or just simply boring.

The reread and PtP threads have instead managed to bring forth that Sansa, like all the other major POVs, is a complex and layered character that draws on archetypes, but is neither a victim nor a damsel in distress stereotype.

Also, being interested in analysing Sansa's POVs does not make me disinterested in other POVs. In fact, re-reading and analysing Sansa's POVs has made me more interested in many other, interlinked POVs, like Tyrion and Arya, for instance. One does not take away from the other and they are not in opposition, which you seem to infer, in that you suggest people should like Arya or Dany instead. It's not an "either or" situation. That is like having two children and thinking that loving the second child means you have to stop loving the first. It just doesn't work that way.

Does that answer your question?

Also, there is no great mystery as to why people like Sansa, as Silverin put it. From my point of view, it's a mystery that you don't.

So often I read wonderful contributions in the PtP thread, deep and imaginative, with hugely interesting source material - only they seem to be about an imaginary character that is not in the books, having gone so far away from the text about the real existing book character Sansa, being filled with hopes of what may be, may be written by Martin if he should ever have intended that. Plots where Sansa might, might arrive or not some day, just like many other characters. So much, sorry, wishful thinking

And this is just plain wrong. The Sansa reread and PtP threads have provided a solid basis for textual interpretation, which was sorely missing before. It used to be "OMG why does she not realise how good Tyrion is to her???" and discussions about how shallow, vapid, and stupid she was, or that people wished she'd die. She was pigeon holed as an air headed damsel in distress who was all about being victimised and suffering trauma.

[Mladen]

For those of you who weren`t with us last summer and autumn, I would like to inform you that this thread had been dealing for several months with Male and Female influences in Sansa`s life. In those essays, we talked how people influenced Sansa and help her growth. The list is excessive due to great number of written essays. I will now link list of Resources

List of Female influences on Sansa essays

List of Male influences on Sansa essays - it`s the OP of PTP 14, so just scroll down a bit, and you`ll find it.

So, as many of you can see, this thread dedicated months researching and analyzing other characters and their influence on Sansa.

[Lummel]

Can't answer for everyone and Lummel already gave a very good reply...

Ah you are kind to me my sweet little cottage ;)

I still think it is an interesting mystery, maybe not why there are the Sansa threads but why there aren't similar threads for some of the other characters. After all with 50,000ish registered site users and, I don't know, maybe two dozen consistent posters in the Sansa threads why aren't there similar groupings of people who enjoy other characters? Since there is just the one set of threads like this there is something interesting there about how difficult it is for groups to self organise in the forum setting.

[Mladen]

Ah you are kind to me my sweet little cottage ;)

I still think it is an interesting mystery, maybe not why there are the Sansa threads but why there aren't similar threads for some of the other characters. After all with 50,000ish registered site users and, I don't know, maybe two dozen consistent posters in the Sansa threads why aren't there similar groupings of people who enjoy other characters? Since there is just the one set of threads like this there is something interesting there about how difficult it is for groups to self organise in the forum setting.

Well, it takes huge effort, Lummel. I know this when I was calling people for my Wolf project. Also, we have Jon and Arya reread threads that has handful of posters with great opinions and interesting ideas. So, I wouldn`t say that PTP is the only one. It is just the oldest. And after we are done with rereading, and move on to rethinking Jon and Arya, I promise you both, Lummel and Lyanna Stark, I`ll be writing as many essays as I have written for Sansa thread :grouphug:

[LaylaC]

I had posted this in another thread, about the series. Only there my question was a bit off topic so I try it here again:

I have a very honest question, something I have trouble to understand. And I do not want to come over as polemic, I truly want to know.

People who write all those deep analyses about Sansa often think that those posters who like Sansa a little less are somewhat belittling female suffering, are even antifeminist or misogynistic.

In my case it is right the contrary:

I see that there are so many wonderfully written female characters in the books, beginning with Cat who obviously has a huge impact on the story. There is Dany, Cersei, the Queen of Thorns, Arya, Brienne, Asha etc.

All those characters, frankly, are much more fascinating to me than the character Sansa. Many of these characters have a complete female life, a biography that includes sexuality, children or loss of children, serious moral dilemmata, power, family, evilness, .... all that. Sansa has little to offer here so far, not on principle but in comparison to those other characters I chose as example. And I would, if I had the time and dedication, choose one of those women protagonists for those sometimes wonderfully written literature essays, psychological analyses or flaming defense. Of course everyone is free to choose his or her favorite but why is it Sansa for some of you? Meaning why not Dany, Cat or Brienne? The Sansa fandom strikes me as far more emotionally involved than other threads about favorite characters, there is so much identification in it. Forgive me if you see me as offensive, I have to formulate a little directly since I would like answers that I can really grasp (and I am not a native speaker which makes me blunt): some posters seem to identify with Sansa in an erotic manner, literallly seeing themselves in her shoes, dreaming themselves into her body. They thus do far more than cool literary, psychological, political analysis, there is an element of worshipping, of infatuation in it. This maybe is what fandom is and I am only too detached or "worldly-wise" for it, poor me.

But now comes the point where I get somewhat annoyed: why is that kind of fandom not dedicated to a character who has all those experiences in her female biography I described above? Why a character that is so "unfinished", so much without defining edges?

I hope, and I say my excuses if my little superficial theory is seen otherwise, that "Sansa" or "SanSan" fans are not offended. But I believe it is precisely the aspect of "unfinished" that leads people to project all kinds of theories and analyses onto the character Sansa. She can be filled with hopes, prognoses, erotic daydreaming, she can serve as vessel for projection because she offers the space for it, while characters like Cat or Dany are already very much defined, some projections are simply not possible anymore because there is far too much material given from Martin that forbids several paths an analysis could take. And this kind of fandom The Sansa character gets is impossible because those other characters are edgy and fleshed out, not every interpretation is possible anymore. Tell me if I am wrong here.

So often I read wonderful contributions in the PtP thread, deep and imaginative, with hugely interesting source material - only they seem to be about an imaginary character that is not in the books, having gone so far away from the text about the real existing book character Sansa, being filled with hopes of what may be, may be written by Martin if he should ever have intended that. Plots where Sansa might, might arrive or not some day, just like many other characters. So much, sorry, wishful thinking. I do not mind if posters clearly tell their hopes and dreams for their favorite character. Only in every analytical text there should be a clear distinction between textual analysis and the subjective factor like hopes and unilateral interpretation of foreshadowing. I probably am too uptight but I cannot free my mind from the restrictive thinking in terms of correct application of scientific methods, sorry.

In short: why is the fan community of Sansa so different from the fans of other characters?

There are so many strong women in the text, love them, worship them, dream of them, be infatuated! Why not those, why Sansa?

Please, I really want to understand. I promise not to answer polemically but to simply read and learn and only to write back if something is beyond my language comprehension.

I have a question for you and my personal answer, hoping it would help you a bit. (I'm obviously not talking about everyone here in the topic, just for myself even if I have never before posted anything here, but I do love this topic.)

My question: Is evilness supposed to be part of a female?

To answer you, if I'm allowed to, from my point of view Sansa goes through things we usually go through too.

It is not that I proyect myself in her, we're not even similar.

I have not lost any children, nor been to war, nor had to conquer any land. I don't aspire to have any 'power'.

On the other hand I have had issues in my family like those Sansa has with Arya, I've lost people I loved, I've been bullied and beaten by classmates when I was as young as her, I lost my dog which I considered my best friend, I've been 11 years old and stupid and thought the world was a disney film.

I was the same Sansa is at 12 when I was 16...

So in my case, she's a character I can relate to. And I guess other people too quite more easily.

On the other hand, her development is subtle, so it's not easy to pick up as with the others and it needs more attention. (And what a wonderful job is done here!) And though a strong conqueror female and fighter female are cool, girls who are not can be too.

Ultimately everyone has their tastes and it can sometimes be difficult to explain. Some people love Jane Austen and the Brontëe sisters, and some people hate them, but their apportation to literature is important.

English isn't my mother tongue either so if something is not clear, sorry. And if it's not appropiate please delete it, thank you.

[Lummel]

...we have Jon and Arya reread threads that has handful of posters with great opinions and interesting ideas. So, I wouldn`t say that PTP is the only one...

No. Pawn to player is unique on the board as a reread thread that has developed or transitioned into something else - a fanbase (?), a character centre (?) - something anyhow that has no name. I would be extremely surprised if Arya or Jon managed a similar transition - other rereads haven't historically on the board, not just mine I hasten to add, but the even older ones too.

Whether there is just something about Sansa, or a lucky coming together of the posters, or a bit of right time and right place (or all three, why not, lets be open minded about this :laugh:) this series of threads is unique in my view.

...So in my case, she's a character I can relate to. And I guess other people too quite more easily...

Yes, I can see that, Sansa might be just about the POV with most points of idenification in ASOIAF in terms of the nature of the challenges she faces and her development.

[Lyanna Stark]

<snip>

English isn't my mother tongue either so if something is not clear, sorry. And if it's not appropiate please delete it, thank you.

On the contrary, very well put. :)

And welcome to the PtP thread LaylaC!

[Woman of War]

I have a question for you and my personal answer, hoping it would help you a bit. (I'm obviously not talking about everyone here in the topic, just for myself even if I have never before posted anything here, but I do love this topic.)

My question: Is evilness supposed to be part of a female?

To answer you, if I'm allowed to, from my point of view Sansa goes through things we usually go through too.

It is not that I proyect myself in her, we're not even similar.

I have not lost any children, nor been to war, nor had to conquer any land. I don't aspire to have any 'power'.

On the other hand I have had issues in my family like those Sansa has with Arya, I've lost people I loved, I've been bullied and beaten by classmates when I was as young as her, I lost my dog which I considered my best friend, I've been 11 years old and stupid and thought the world was a disney film.

I was the same Sansa is at 12 when I was 16...

So in my case, she's a character I can relate to. And I guess other people too quite more easily.

On the other hand, her development is subtle, so it's not easy to pick up as with the others and it needs more attention. (And what a wonderful job is done here!) And though a strong conqueror female and fighter female are cool, girls who are not can be too.

Ultimately everyone has their tastes and it can sometimes be difficult to explain. Some people love Jane Austen and the Bront&euml;e sisters, and some people hate them, but their apportation to literature is important.

English isn't my mother tongue either so if something is not clear, sorry. And if it's not appropiate please delete it, thank you.

Thank you all for your hugely interesting answers so far, give me more :) .

To answer your question, LayLaC:

Evilness is as much a part of a female as it is a part of males. I do not believe that women are by nature the better humans, not necessarily. There have been recent studies about boys and girls that show that the manner of girls to solve problems is socially more accepted, see the book by Hanna Rosin: "The End of Men and The Rise of Women" where she states that the male model has reached its expiration date. Nature or nurture? Rosin has a son, btw. At school "female" problem solving ways are favored by now and boys become sometimes less successful than girls - only then comes the glass ceiling and reducing yourself to so-called female social competence does not get you anywhere. On the other hand the "girls" way of bullying can be even more evil than direct "boyish" violence.

So, short answer: women are not better by nature but, by upbringing, socially more competent than men in several, not all, aspects. But excluding the other competences like ambition and a certain amount of agressiveness, from being acceptable reduces the competences of mankind. And so we get the potential for evil into play. Evil is part of human nature, male and female.

And a character in the books does not need huge parts of evilness to be interesting for me. Take Brienne: it is extremely fascinating to watch her trying to do the right thing because she is very much aware of the conflict she is in, the limitations and difficulties this choice confronts her with and that being good may mean failure. No, she is not naive, she is stubborn in her convictions, she has made a decision how to lead her life and that path of life takes courage. Moral flexibility is easier, often more clever and successful but that is not Brienne. This character is hugely interesting in her conflict. Generally "grey" characters are more complex and fascinating to me but Brienne (and to an extent Davos) are the exception. I do not even consider the question if Brienne is more or less female by that conflict, she is Brienne and Brienne is a woman, full stop.

Sorry, I just could not make it shorter.

By Lummel

I still think it is an interesting mystery, maybe not why there are the Sansa threads but why there aren't similar threads for some of the other characters

Yes, that was basically my question. Now please do not make me feel guilty by telling me to start the Cat or Cersei reread! I have a fulltime job and a family, I just can't do the necessary research.

Indeed Sansa is easy to relate to since we all can be Sansa, she is no wonderwoman with superpower, not an intellectual genius (though HBO needs not emphazise this so overly much ;) ) and she has to be naive in order not to spoonfeed conclusions to us readers that Martin wants us to draw ourselves. So she is easy access into the story for many, though for sure not for everyone.

And there is a story behind why she rubs me the wrong way:

When I was eleven my widowed mother, a teacher, had found a new boyfriend. He started to molest me in a way which felt totally wrong, only I was too naive to clearly identify it as attempt of sexual abuse. Before he could really hurt me i decided to take action and to tell. I went to my mother, formulating my concern and what I could not fully understand she grasped straightaway. The man was a powerful pillar of society and this happened many, many years ago when it still was always the girl's fault. My mother did not go to the police but she told everyone in her environment about it, thus admitting that the guy had not been after her but after me, what courage to face that humiliation! And that influential lawyer could easily have got her for libel, there was a risk, public opinion and loss of job. But by speaking up we were finally free of him. This did in the end not make me ashamed but stronger because I had taken the initiative, I had done what I could in order to shape my fate, my mother and I had fought (1969!) and won. Not going along and shutting up but fighting had been the key.

Of course my situation is not comparable to Sansa, I know. But a girl character that endures, that goes along, that dreams herself out of a problem, that does her "duty" will never appeal to me. For me personally this would be the wrong way, I will not start discussing now what I think Sansa could have done if she had been more savvy.

And of course I see her development but I also see so much development in other characters and there is no way to predict where Sansa's development might go.

So everyone has her or his personal story and for some Sansa apparently appeals to something inside, for some she does not. Actually this is the case with any of the more prominent characters, thanks to Martin's differenciated writing. Telling Cersei lovers that they root for hell to win or Dany lovers that they worship the Westerosi Lenin would be equally pointless.

[LaylaC]

Thank you all for your hugely interesting answers so far, give me more :) .

To answer your question, LayLaC:

Evilness is as much a part of a female as it is a part of males. I do not believe that women are by nature the better humans, not necessarily. There have been recent studies about boys and girls that show that the manner of girls to solve problems is socially more accepted, see the book by Hanna Rosin: "The End of Men and The Rise of Women" where she states that the male model has reached its expiration date. Nature or nurture? Rosin has a son, btw. At school "female" problem solving ways are favored by now and boys become sometimes less successful than girls - only then comes the glass ceiling and reducing yourself to so-called female social competence does not get you anywhere. On the other hand the "girls" way of bullying can be even more evil than direct "boyish" violence.

So, short answer: women are not better by nature but, by upbringing, socially more competent than men in several, not all, aspects. But excluding the other competences like ambition and a certain amount of agressiveness, from being acceptable reduces the competences of mankind. And so we get the potential for evil into play. Evil is part of human nature, male and female.

And a character in the books does not need huge parts of evilness to be interesting for me. Take Brienne: it is extremely fascinating to watch her trying to do the right thing because she is very much aware of the conflict she is in, the limitations and difficulties this choice confronts her with and that being good may mean failure. No, she is not naive, she is stubborn in her convictions, she has made a decision how to lead her life and that path of life takes courage. Moral flexibility is easier, often more clever and successful but that is not Brienne. This character is hugely interesting in her conflict. Generally "grey" characters are more complex and fascinating to me but Brienne (and to an extent Davos) are the exception. I do not even consider the question if Brienne is more or less female by that conflict, she is Brienne and Brienne is a woman, full stop.

Thank you for answering, it's relly interesting what you said and I'm going to check out this book.

I don't agree with what you said about being stubborn being more difficult that being flexible though, and I actually think Brienne is quite naive.

In fact what is wrong in one situation is not wrong always. Take Jaime slaying Aerys. He broke his oath yet he saved a lot of people even if it wasn't his goal. Brienne is currently learning that stubborness is getting her nowhere in real life. (Correct me if I'm wrong.)

She has her ideas of knighthood and honor, pretty much like Sansa has hers of songs, love, and knighthood itself. They are quite similar and naive but their weapons are different: Brienne has her physical strength and ability, she can use them to protect herself and others, and finally to destroy those who do 'evil'. Sansa has her courtesies and her mirror-armor who protects her real self and makes other see her as they want. This makes her able to survive and to protect other (Ser Dontos) and she is in her way to destroy, if she wants to, thoose who do 'evil'.

Remember that Brienne is 18 and Sansa 13.

Sansa is flexible. She had an ideal world in her mind, well organised and suddenly it stars to fall appart. It is a normal stage of maturation I think everyone goes through, suddenly what mom and dad told you isn't completely true, they lie to keep you safe, to protect you and because you are not ready to know.

But she has changed her ways and methods of survival without loosing herself.

And that Sansa is no wonderwoman... What she goes through is easy to relate, how she manages it not so much. She makes it much better than what most people think. She is inside her situation, she doesn't have the reader point of view. Decissions have to be taken automatically and she ought to keep her composure.

For a 11-13 year old, she is very intelligent and has adapted well to her situations. She has made the best of it.

I'm very sorry for what happened to you when you were little and I'm glad you shared it now. It was brave of you to tell, and brave of your mother too for standing for you and telling too.

But what are you refering to? Sansa has to tell somebody that Littlefinger abuses her?

I'm sure she would, if she knew to whom. I don't even know it myself, from the outside.

She never had the chance to stand and be like Brienne from the day her father died. If she did she would have been abused and beaten to death, or more likely end up Reek 2.0.

Mine's long too! Sorry.

[brashcandy]

May I suggest that we all return to the discussion on Elba's essay of the tale East of the Sun, West of the Moon?

The question was: why is not every woman celebrated in the same intensity in these forums?

And women should never be judged? Should they get an uncritical free pass for everything they do, just like little children? That would be hugely condescending. Women deserve to be taken seriously just like men and being the target of criticism is part of it.

Congratulations on your epic thread derailment. Once again, you have come to this thread with the sole purpose of offending and patronizing its membership under the guise of seeking answers about our focus here. The truth is you don't care about what we have to say, and our answers are not going to make one bit of a difference to you. We have answered your questions in the past, we have heard your story of abuse, and what you did to get out of it, and we have attempted to explain that Sansa's situation cannot be compared to yours, and to provide evidence from the text on how she manages to fight back and to resist those who try to exploit and manipulate her. Still, you come and make accusations that we're projecting ourselves unto Sansa, and seeking fulfilment through her "unfinished story". In the past I might have been insulted, but now I'm just tired, and I have to laugh because if there's anyone who has personal issues tied up in their appreciation - or lack thereof - of Sansa, it's you.

And finally, we all busy lives, full time jobs and families. We make the time to develop and contribute to this thread because it's a labour of love, and we're genuinely interested in what we discover through these discussions. There is an active Cersei re-read on the board right now, but I don't recall seeing you posting there. If you're interested, and you should be considering your rant about other more fascinating women with full lives, here it is.

So welcome to Layla C, I hope you'll stick around. And again, let's get this discussion back on track.

[Woman of War]

@laylaC

I have in no way tried to compare Brienne to Sansa so directly, but Brienne ws the first example that came to my mind when looking for a character that is hugely interesting without being a "grey" one. Her character is a discourse about "goodness". Of course she is much older than Sansa. The point is: Brienne is, given her martial competence, in a position to do evil and yet consciously decides against it. Sigh, yes she is naive and absolute but I think she knows even that.

THAT was derailment.