“Born amidst salt and smoke” Prophecy has been fulfilled.

[Veltigar]

He doesn't fit neatly at all. That's the whole point of my post. He has a smoking wound, and we all really really really want him to be resurrected (reborn), but the fact is, he HASN'T been resurrected yet, and he hasn't woken dragons from stone. You have to totally twist around a lot of the stuff that happened to him to make it fit.

And the "bleeding star" is a joke that GRRM wrote into the text. At least, if you interpret Patrik's bloody Dallas cowboy sigil flag as the "bleeding star".

Give the dude some time. Or ar you saying that he isn't going to be resurected at all? + it's neater in the way that the signals of it are so nice and small. George major theories always turn out in unexpected ways. Dany is just to obvious to be AA, on the other hand everyone believes that tPtwP needs to be a dude but it's actually Dany.

[Young Nan]

Give the dude some time. Or ar you saying that he isn't going to be resurected at all? + it's neater in the way that the signals of it are so nice and small. George major theories always turn out in unexpected ways. Dany is just to obvious to be AA, on the other hand everyone believes that tPtwP needs to be a dude but it's actually Dany.

He probably will be resurrected, he had better be, otherwise i'm going to burn all my books for making me so invested in a character just for them to get stabbed. But until he is, the jury is still out, IMO. And he still has to wake dragons from stone.

Yes, it's possible that Dany is a big red herring, I suppose. Its just that she meets all the criteria, already, and in a really literal way. Plus, I will pretty much listen to anything Aemon says about anything.

[Veltigar]

He probably will be resurrected, he had better be, otherwise i'm going to burn all my books for making me so invested in a character just for them to get stabbed. But until he is, the jury is still out, IMO. And he still has to wake dragons from stone.

Yes, it's possible that Dany is a big red herring, I suppose. Its just that she meets all the criteria, already, and in a really literal way. Plus, I will pretty much listen to anything Aemon says about anything.

I follow Aemon in the fact that Dany is tPtwP, but I think with Jons stabbing he's the best candidate for AA.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

Based on this definition and the fact that Martin used the word smoking to describe Jon's wounds, I think it's safe to say that as far as the prophecy is concerned Smoke and steam are interchangeable

:agree:

He doesn't fit neatly at all. That's the whole point of my post. He has a smoking wound, and we all really really really want him to be resurrected (reborn), but the fact is, he HASN'T been resurrected yet, and he hasn't woken dragons from stone. You have to totally twist around a lot of the stuff that happened to him to make it fit.

He fits perfectly.

If you believe that Jon is the PTWP, and AAR is simply a religious twist on the PTWP prophecy.

[The Red Star]

No, just no

[Lady of Dragonstone]

Well wouldn't the conditions present during his "rebirth" be more significant then the conditions present when he was "killed"?

If you were to use one definition of amidst, "with the accompaniment of," it makes sense in a literal way. I tend to think of the "rebirthing" as beginning with a death (or near enough) and ending with birth (as it's a process. One must logically perish in part, some way, to be reborn). Hope this makes sense.

Waking the stone dragon is much harder to decipher. If AA is Jon, this part of the prophecy may have not come to pass yet. We do still have two books to go. I think Dany already accomplishing this is the best argument that she may be AA. Like others, though, I believe she is a red herring and/or PtwP.

I don't think there's much "twisting" necessary to make Jon fit into AA. It's just that he fills the requirements in a more subtle way. I'm no expert but I'd say this is more of George's style. That's a personal opinion though.

[kane120]

I dont understand how people DONT think that it is Dany. She literally (1) walked into a smoking funeral pyre,(2) while a red comet was in the sky, (3) with mirri maz dur, jorah, and a hundred or so observers watching and probably crying salty tears, (4) literally woke dragons from stone, and (5) was reborn as the unburnt, mother of dragons, conquerer, etc.

Aemon, wisest and best educated guy in the realm, who himself has visions of the prophecy that he describes to Sam ("I still remember red, etc") outright says its her.

Then we have Jon, who may not even still be alive, who may get resurrected (or not), and the only basis for him being AA is his wound steamed in the cold, and there was a guy standing in the vicinity with a star sigil, which GRRM already verified was put there as a joke after he lost a football bet, and was supposed to look like the dallas cowboys' star. Patrik whatever his name was (the star sigil knight) was named after one of the players. Not to mention that Jon hasn't woken anything out of stone, either.

Dany meets all the criteria pretty literally, while Jon may sort of meet some of the criteria, IF you twist a lot of innocuous signs into prophecy criteria, and speculate about the guy even being alive still, which we don't know yet.

This thread's theory is premised upon the fact that they sterilized birthing "equipment" when Lyanna gave birth to him? That requires a lot of assumptions and leaps in logic.

COMPLETELY agree.

Also, Ptwp and AA = 2 different people. I support that Jon is the Ptwp, but Dany is most definitely AA.

[Young Nan]

COMPLETELY agree.

Also, Ptwp and AA = 2 different people. I support that Jon is the Ptwp, but Dany is most definitely AA.

Im still in the AA and Ptwp are one person camp. Because of aemon and mel's conversation, when he says "oh, you speak of the war for the dawn, but who is the ptwp" and mel says "he stands before you, stannis is azor ahai come again" (im paraphrasing)

The ptwp seems to be what aemon and rhaegar call Azor Ahai, probably after learning about the Asshai'I prophecy in the scrolls.

[jentario]

It's difficult to explain. Aemon handed us the answer with still two books (at least) to go and coupled with how not subtle the pyre was, it's basically what we're meant to be thinking. Therefore, the surprise will be that it's not actually Dany, but Jon. It's a bit like Aegon's situation: "Here is Aegon VI!" Then it turns out that he's a Blackfyre, or just some randomness guy with a Valyrian appearance. If we're are told something big with so much story left, it's probably not true.

That was a messy explanation, sorry.

Jon is a pretty obvious AAR too. Mel's "looking for AA but on seeing Snow" (capital S with later reference) all but gave it away. In fact, both Jon and Dany are so obviously AA that it makes me think each of the three dragon heads will be. AA is just the person (or people, in this case) willing to sacrifice their utmost desire to win the fight with the Others, and this time it will be Jon, Dany and another yet unrevealed (possibly Tyrion because of the whole Shae thing and being born in CR near the sea... I don't know, can't think of anyone else...). I don't think any single AA figure will ever be revealed, only left for speculation (which of the three is the TRUE AA). GRRM said there isn't a true or real religion in Westeros, and AAR seems like adding even more evidence that there is none but the great Rhllor.

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

Jon is a pretty obvious AAR too. Mel's "looking for AA but on seeing Snow" (capital S with later reference) all but gave it away. In fact, both Jon and Dany are so obviously AA that it makes me think each of the three dragon heads will be. AA is just the person (or people, in this case) willing to sacrifice their utmost desire to win the fight with the Others, and this time it will be Jon, Dany and another yet unrevealed (possibly Tyrion because of the whole Shae thing and being born in CR near the sea... I don't know, can't think of anyone else...). I don't think any single AA figure will ever be revealed, only left for speculation (which of the three is the TRUE AA). GRRM said there isn't a true or real religion in Westeros, and AAR seems like adding even more evidence that there is none but the great Rhllor.

There are a lot of hints, but the difference is that nobody ever expressly tells us that it's Jon. Of course, it is possible that there are more than one AAR as you say, in which case Dany would almost certainly be one of them.

[Young Nan]

Jon is a pretty obvious AAR too. Mel's "looking for AA but on seeing Snow" (capital S with later reference) all but gave it away. In fact, both Jon and Dany are so obviously AA that it makes me think each of the three dragon heads will be. AA is just the person (or people, in this case) willing to sacrifice their utmost desire to win the fight with the Others, and this time it will be Jon, Dany and another yet unrevealed (possibly Tyrion because of the whole Shae thing and being born in CR near the sea... I don't know, can't think of anyone else...). I don't think any single AA figure will ever be revealed, only left for speculation (which of the three is the TRUE AA). GRRM said there isn't a true or real religion in Westeros, and AAR seems like adding even more evidence that there is none but the great Rhllor.

True, the all I see is Snow thing. And his dream where he fights on the wall with a glowing red sword. Maybe instead of AA and ptwp being two separate things, we have it backward. AA and Ptwp refer to one thing, but that one thing is three separate people (heads).

[kane120]

Im still in the AA and Ptwp are one person camp. Because of aemon and mel's conversation, when he says "oh, you speak of the war for the dawn, but who is the ptwp" and mel says "he stands before you, stannis is azor ahai come again" (im paraphrasing)

The ptwp seems to be what aemon and rhaegar call Azor Ahai, probably after learning about the Asshai'I prophecy in the scrolls.

I get what you're saying, but as we have seen, Mel is very unreliable in reading or interpreting visions. Just because she equated the two, doesn't mean Aemon does. And I am of the opinion that Aemon is one of the most learned people in the realm. Also, if I missed some major info that contradicts my statement (its very possible), please correct me.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I'm still a huge fan of Tze's theory that the whole "smoke and salt" thing is one giant misinterpretation by someone who saw something but didn't know what it was they were seeing. Smoke: mist from Others/wights, salt: the ice wall. If you were from Asshai or someplace with a warm climate and you hadn't seen snow or ice before, and you had a vision of mist and a giant white wall, what would you think it was?

The Dragonstone thing has always confused me, given that it's the "sea" part that seems to stand in for the "salt," the salt being "saltwater" (something also most certainly in the ice Wall, by the way). But if Dragonstone is what someone saw in a prophecy, "salt and smoke" seems like a weird way to describe it.

I'd say Jon has multiple avenues for this. There's Tze's idea above, which is still my favorite because of how smack-your-head simple it is. There's his smoking wound and Bowen's tears. There's the smoked and salted meat in the cellar where they might stash his "corpse." There's the fact that we still don't know all the details of his birth, but that the deaths of two kings — Aerys and Aegon — immediately preceded it. He has links to not one but two "bleeding stars": Arthur Dayne and Ser Patrek. And, you know, the fact that he has a prophetic dream in which he's fighting with a freaking burning sword.

And as always, I remind everyone that Aemon's "confirmation" of Dany being AA should be a giant goddamn red flag that isn't true or that there's more to it than what we know, or both. It baffles me that anyone can make the "Aemon said it so it must be true" argument, when the only thing I got out of it was, "The lady doth protest too much." Rather than confirm for me that Dany was AA, Aemon's assertion only clued me into the fact that she was a red herring. Think of it this way — if it's soooo obviously Dany and any non-idiot could put the clues together, why have Aemon "confirm" it, and later the other red priests? When has anyone been "right" about what a prophecy meant when they tried to interpret it? The times I can think of when someone tried — Melisandre with Arya/Alys and Stannis as AA and Renly in King's Landing, and Cersei with Tyrion as the valonqar — they've either been proved wrong in the story or they're very obviously wrong going forward.

[Florina Laufeyson]

COMPLETELY agree.

Also, Ptwp and AA = 2 different people. I support that Jon is the Ptwp, but Dany is most definitely AA.

Agreed with that. I also feel that AAR isnt exactly a good "guy".

Cool stuff

Arr. But wasnt it the PtwP that Aemon thought Dany was??

[kane120]

I'm still a huge fan of Tze's theory that the whole "smoke and salt" thing is one giant misinterpretation by someone who saw something but didn't know what it was they were seeing. Smoke: mist from Others/wights, salt: the ice wall. If you were from Asshai or someplace with a warm climate and you hadn't seen snow or ice before, and you had a vision of mist and a giant white wall, what would you think it was?

The Dragonstone thing has always confused me, given that it's the "sea" part that seems to stand in for the "salt," the salt being "saltwater" (something also most certainly in the ice Wall, by the way). But if Dragonstone is what someone saw in a prophecy, "salt and smoke" seems like a weird way to describe it.

I'd say Jon has multiple avenues for this. There's Tze's idea above, which is still my favorite because of how smack-your-head simple it is. There's his smoking wound and Bowen's tears. There's the smoked and salted meat in the cellar where they might stash his "corpse." There's the fact that we still don't know all the details of his birth, but that the deaths of two kings — Aerys and Aegon — immediately preceded it. He has links to not one but two "bleeding stars": Arthur Dayne and Ser Patrek. And, you know, the fact that he has a prophetic dream in which he's fighting with a freaking burning sword.

And as always, I remind everyone that Aemon's "confirmation" of Dany being AA should be a giant goddamn red flag that isn't true or that there's more to it than what we know, or both. It baffles me that anyone can make the "Aemon said it so it must be true" argument, when the only thing I got out of it was, "The lady doth protest too much." Rather than confirm for me that Dany was AA, Aemon's assertion only clued me into the fact that she was a red herring. Think of it this way — if it's soooo obviously Dany and any non-idiot could put the clues together, why have Aemon "confirm" it, and later the other red priests? When has anyone been "right" about what a prophecy meant when they tried to interpret it?

Far be it from me to dispute one who has over 12,000 (wtf?!) posts (no snark intended, genuine respect), but I would like to read up on Tze's theory it you have a link. However, Dany's 'rebirth' does fit nicely into the AA prophesy IMHO. Also, doesn't salt water NOT freeze?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Arr. But wasnt it the PtwP that Aemon thought Dany was??

True, but he thinks of them as the same thing. :P

Also worth noting that when Aemon makes this prediction, as far as he knows, Dany is the only Targaryen left. We know that isn't true.

Far be it from me to dispute one who has over 12,000 (wtf?!) posts (no snark intended, genuine respect), but I would like to read up on Tze's theory it you have a link. However, Dany's 'rebirth' does fit nicely into the AA prophesy IMHO.

She discussed it eons ago. There's a search function if you're so inclined and don't mind digging. And yes Dany does seem to fit, which is why she's an excellent red herring.

[Florina Laufeyson]

True, but he thinks of them as the same thing. :P

Also worth noting that when Aemon makes this prediction, as far as he knows, Dany is the only Targaryen left. We know that isn't true.

Touche. But i still think AAR and PtwP are two different peeps but of the same bloodline. ;) ;)

[kane120]

True, but he thinks of them as the same thing. :P

Also worth noting that when Aemon makes this prediction, as far as he knows, Dany is the only Targaryen left. We know that isn't true.

She discussed it eons ago. There's a search function if you're so inclined and don't mind digging. And yes Dany does seem to fit, which is why she's an excellent red herring.

got it.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Touche. But i still think AAR and PtwP are two different peeps but of the same bloodline. ;) ;)

I still think they're probably the same. I think all of these things — AA, Last Hero, PtwP, etc. — are just different interpretations of basically the same event. Although I do secretly love the idea that Dany is AA but AA is a nutcase and not actually a hero. :D

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

got it.

It's worth your time to hunt it up and to read whatever else you find from her. She's, in my opinion, by far the best analytical mind on here and some of the stuff she finds in terms of foreshadowing and symbolism are mind-blowing. She is not a fan of Dany at all, which, given how smart she is, makes me glad I'm on her side.