R+L=J v.45

[MtnLion]

We are certainly supposed to believe there was a baby. Rhaegar was fertile. There is no reason to believe Lyanna wasn't. Robert says Lyanna was raped repeatedly and Eddard does not disagree. Daenerys says it was a love story. Either way, the result would probably be a pregnancy. And there is the bed of blood. In other words, Mr Martin beat us over the head with indications that Lyanna at least got pregnant.

If she did, and it wasn't a stillbirth, there are several possibilities for what happened to the baby. What I said before is that my money is on Young Griff, in which case Eddard took his son (that is, the one that looked like him), Ashara/Lemore took Lyanna's son (that is, the one that looked like her) and Eddard does not tell Jon because he does not want Jon off hunting for his mother and exposing the whole thing.

If you like analogies, it is the same thing Jon does with the Mance/Gilly babies. He sends the royal baby away and keeps the non-royal baby with him.

I like analogies, as that is the primary ingredient to Aerys' child by Ashara being switched for the stillborn daughter of Rhaegar by Elia. But, to presuppose that Jon is going to go hunting for his dead mother as a reason for not telling Jon, is a huge stretch. The simplest answer is sometimes the right one.

Back to line one, Ned arrives at Starfall with Wylla, Jon, Dawn, and Howland. He is fresh from the war, and news is unreliable and sparse, so I can easily see Lady Adhara asking Ned about her BFF, Elia. Do you think that Ned is going to sugar coat what happened to her or her children? No, he was outraged by the way they had been taken care of, so much that he almost started a new war in King's Landing with Robert. How is Ashara going to feel about Aegon's fate if it is her child? It is easy to understand her motivation for suicide, if the child is really hers.

[Ygrain]

I agree that if Lyanna had a baby this has to be true.

But it really undercuts your criticism of the theory that the fisherman's daughter/Wylla spent time in Eddard's camp after Eddard's wedding. Your criticism is that someone would have noticed and talked. Doesn't that apply equally to the group of people you believe to have been at the Tower of Joy with Lyanna? Someone would have talked?

I see that you really love to draw invalid comparisons. Don't you have the slightest feeling that keeping a girl in the tent in the middle of a military campaign, with lots of people around, is a tiny bit different from having a handful of people in a secret remote location, who know from the very beginning that This Is Secret?

We are certainly supposed to believe there was a baby. Rhaegar was fertile. There is no reason to believe Lyanna wasn't. Robert says Lyanna was raped repeatedly and Eddard does not disagree. Daenerys says it was a love story. Either way, the result would probably be a pregnancy. And there is the bed of blood. In other words, Mr Martin beat us over the head with indications that Lyanna at least got pregnant.

If she did, and it wasn't a stillbirth, there are several possibilities for what happened to the baby. What I said before is that my money is on Young Griff, in which case Eddard took his son (that is, the one that looked like him), Ashara/Lemore took Lyanna's son (that is, the one that looked like her) and Eddard does not tell Jon because he does not want Jon off hunting for his mother and exposing the whole thing.

And why should Jon go looking for a dead woman? Whether true or not, this is the official version, never doubted by anyone, and told to him by Ned who never lies. He has absolutely no reason to think differently.

If you like analogies, it is the same thing Jon does with the Mance/Gilly babies. He sends the royal baby away and keeps the non-royal baby with him.

You'd have to have a non-royal baby in the first place - i.e . get Ned and Ashara together, or was it Wylla? Gosh, he was dragging Wylla along, and when Ashara came for a visit, he impregnated her, as well, so there was a triple switcheroo! Help! A third baby is needed! I think Meera would fit just fine, and the theory of Ned the Impregnator would relieve Lyanna of the need to have triplets.

Yes, that's how it must have happened. The fool me. Why have a single child to whom everything ties when i can have a nursery of them.

[Ruby Chevrolet]

I like analogies, as that is the primary ingredient to Aerys' child by Ashara being switched for the stillborn daughter of Rhaegar by Elia. But, to presuppose that Jon is going to go hunting for his dead mother as a reason for not telling Jon, is a huge stretch. The simplest answer is sometimes the right one.

Back to line one, Ned arrives at Starfall with Wylla, Jon, Dawn, and Howland. He is fresh from the war, and news is unreliable and sparse, so I can easily see Lady Adhara asking Ned about her BFF, Elia. Do you think that Ned is going to sugar coat what happened to her or her children? No, he was outraged by the way they had been taken care of, so much that he almost started a new war in King's Landing with Robert. How is Ashara going to feel about Aegon's fate if it is her child? It is easy to understand her motivation for suicide, if the child is really hers.

This is pretty interesting. Is your theory that the Aegon in King's Landing (the one Rhaegar thought was the Prince who was Promised) was really Ashara's son, that he was killed by Ser Gregor, and she committed suicide as a result?

And if I have followed you, did Rhaegar know? And do you have a theory of who was the father of Ashara's son?

[lcd52]

I'm just popping in here with a question because I don't think it warrants a new thread.

It confuses me how Ned can just come back from war with a baby and claim he fathered it off of some woman. There are surely people who rode with him the entire war, yes? So unless he was in a town, then in that same town 9 months later and left that exact town with the baby... How could people even buy his story? And if it never happened, then the lie would've been found out right away and Ned couldn't pretend Jon was his... Unless by the end of the war he was alone except for Howland Reed, who is now MIA.

If he just shows up out of the ToJ with some baby, did he go straight to Winterfell from there? Just him and Howland Reed? Can two dudes and a baby travel safely during a war?

I don't know how to word this question exactly but it's been nagging me for a long time. So I guess the question really is was Ned alone long enough and at the right points in time in order for the lie to actually work? That seems too convenient for me. And that's my only hang up with Jon being R+L.

Catelyn says that when she went to Winterfell with Robb, Jon and his wet nurse were already there. We have no exact information on how old Robb was when he arrived at Winterfell or if Ned was there waiting for them or if he escorted them. They could have come while he was still engaged in getting Robert settled. Presumably, after Robert's adversaries bent the knee, travel was safe enough that an escort would suffice.

From Ned's point of view, sending Jon on ahead to Winterfell with his wetnurse eliminated the need to say anything. The wetnurse would do the lying. Or her escort would. As the Lord of Winterfell, he would not explain or expect to be questioned by his servants or bannermen. Benjen, maybe; but no one else would presume, As Littlefinger put it, "it is rude to enquire into the origins of a man's natural children."

Catelyn's account left me with the impression she came to Winterfell without Ned; but it was never stated and I think that it would be expected that he formally present his wife to her home and household. How he presented Jon to her also was never stated. Only that he was "never out of sight," and she could never forgive Ned for it.

So, probably Ned sent Jon on ahead of everyone. Maybe he followed and greeted Catelyn and Robb when they were escorted to Winterfell or he went to Riverrun and brought them to Winterfell and left the staff to identify the baby already in the nursery.

[Mihai Brasoveanu]

Finn Jones aka Loras Tyrell was yesterday at the Eastern European Comic-Con. I asked him if the cast talks about the internet theories and he said they do. He also said that he thinks R+L=J is true, but if he were George RR Martin he would change it now just to mess with everyone :) Fun guy.

[Moët]

Finn Jones aka Loras Tyrell was yesterday at the Eastern European Comic-Con. I asked him if the cast talks about the internet theories and he said they do. He also said that he thinks R+L=J is true, but if he were George RR Martin he would change it now just to mess with everyone :) Fun guy.

HAAAAAA!!! That's awesome. Thanks so much for sharing. :D

[hwyl]

Finn Jones aka Loras Tyrell was yesterday at the Eastern European Comic-Con. I asked him if the cast talks about the internet theories and he said they do. He also said that he thinks R+L=J is true, but if he were George RR Martin he would change it now just to mess with everyone :) Fun guy.

Well, it really seems such a universally popular theory that it would certainly be amusing if it would turn out to be not true... I would like that! I have been drawn to this series by its historical realism (it's really a remarkably, astonishingly merciless portrayal of a medieval society and its bogus knighthood ideal). In the actual middle ages it actually wasn't that meaningful who was whose son "in reality" as opposed to general perception. The general perception was the thing that mattered - and the actual (military) possession of the throne even more. Of course ASOIAF is not history and does not need to be, but it just seems bit overblown and fairytale like to have such huge importance on Jon Snow's actual parentage. If this were history it would certainly be a useful tale to bolster a conquest - but without a conquest it would be rather meaningless even if true.

[Ser Creighton]

I see that you really love to draw invalid comparisons. Don't you have the slightest feeling that keeping a girl in the tent in the middle of a military campaign, with lots of people around, is a tiny bit different from having a handful of people in a secret remote location, who know from the very beginning that This Is Secret?

And why should Jon go looking for a dead woman? Whether true or not, this is the official version, never doubted by anyone, and told to him by Ned who never lies. He has absolutely no reason to think differently.

You'd have to have a non-royal baby in the first place - i.e . get Ned and Ashara together, or was it Wylla? Gosh, he was dragging Wylla along, and when Ashara came for a visit, he impregnated her, as well, so there was a triple switcheroo! Help! A third baby is needed! I think Meera would fit just fine, and the theory of Ned the Impregnator would relieve Lyanna of the need to have triplets.

Yes, that's how it must have happened. The fool me. Why have a single child to whom everything ties when i can have a nursery of them.

Ned never lies??? The entire basis for R+L=J is based off Ned lying, Ned himself in the books admitted he has told a lot of lies. If Ned never lies than Wylla is Jon's mother, do you think Wylla is Jon's mother?

[Ser Creighton]

Finn Jones aka Loras Tyrell was yesterday at the Eastern European Comic-Con. I asked him if the cast talks about the internet theories and he said they do. He also said that he thinks R+L=J is true, but if he were George RR Martin he would change it now just to mess with everyone :) Fun guy.

Kit said the same thing, well he didn't name Jon's parents as they are not suppose to do that, but he talked about how the cast talks about the theories and said he actually goes to the forums and even used to post. He stopped doing it because he said he was getting to far ahead of the character which is not good for an actor.

[The guy from the Vale]

Ned never lies??? The entire basis for R+L=J is based off Ned lying, Ned himself in the books admitted he has told a lot of lies. If Ned never lies than Wylla is Jon's mother, do you think Wylla is Jon's mother?

That's the common Westerosi perception, though.

[Ygrain]

Ned never lies??? The entire basis for R+L=J is based off Ned lying, Ned himself in the books admitted he has told a lot of lies. If Ned never lies than Wylla is Jon's mother, do you think Wylla is Jon's mother?

You've misread me. That part of Ned never lying is from Jon's perspective, who doesn't have the knowledge the reader does.

[Alia of the knife]

Finn Jones aka Loras Tyrell was yesterday at the Eastern European Comic-Con. I asked him if the cast talks about the internet theories and he said they do. He also said that he thinks R+L=J is true, but if he were George RR Martin he would change it now just to mess with everyone :) Fun guy.

Thats great you had a chance to meet him.

I think that while it appears that Martin is ready to have this part of the story behind him with everyone having the "gag order" lifted, and clearly Finn Jones is a devilsh guy, Martin himself said he would not change anything, and is pleased to have people guess.

[UVA]

3. Rhaegar was in love with Lyanna, and from what Meera Reed says, Lyanna returned his love.

Terrific summary! One criticism though, I don't believe Meera says that Lyanna loved Rhaegar. In her telling of the KotLT story Meera says the 'wolf maid' cried during the Dragon Prince's song and when her little brother makes fun of her for it she dumps wine on his head. I think that is the only indication of Lyanna's feelings towards Rhaegar at this point.

If Rhaegar assumed he would definitely make it back, then he is being arrogant, which I cannot recall anyone who has accused him of that.

Arrogant, hopeful, delusional, confident say what you will but Rhaegar did think he would survive the war and return, see his comments that Jamie recalls in AFFC: "When this battle's done I mean to call a council. Changes will be made."

[FrozenFire3]

Finn Jones aka Loras Tyrell was yesterday at the Eastern European Comic-Con. I asked him if the cast talks about the internet theories and he said they do. He also said that he thinks R+L=J is true, but if he were George RR Martin he would change it now just to mess with everyone :) Fun guy.

Finn Jones is adorkable ;)

Shall we recap what has been said - so far - about R+L=J by cast members?

Sean Bean:

But he is calculating, in at least one matter: Jon Snow’s parentage. When it comes to Jon Snow’s mother, Ned is extremely tight-lipped, save for his one terse comment to King Robert. The fandom is teeming with theories that Jon isn't Ned's bastard at all.

That’s another twist [to come]. It’s a great conundrum. Who do you think it is?

My money’s on the mother being Ned’s dead sister and the father being Rhaegar Targaryen. If Ned swore to protect his dead sister’s son from his own best friend, the best way of doing that would have been to claim him as his own and take him in.

Ned really knows who [Jon’s parents are], but he can’t let on. That’s why it’s such a moving moment, those poignant scenes I have with Kit Harington [who plays Jon], because I couldn’t say what I really thought. There are so many things I could have said, because there is a love there between the two of them, but I can’t express it as overtly as I can with the other children, who I can hold and kiss. Even if I were his true father, I can’t talk about it for fear of offending my wife, who’s really bitter about this. So it’s really a cruel situation. Through no fault of his own, Ned took on a lot by taking Jon in.

Kit Harington:

Have you theorized at all about his parentage? Fans love to speculate that Jon is actually the son of Ned’s sister Lyanna and Rhaegar Targaryen.

I’ve had that theory as well. It’s one that I have to keep shoving out of my head because it will, I think subconsciously, change the way I play him and change how I see him. I don’t know who his mother is. George hasn’t told me. I don’t know his parentage. It’s all still in George’s head. So, it’s one of those things that I have to be careful with. I would passionately love that to be the case. I really would. I think that’s a fantastic twist. But we don’t know. I think there are clues all the way through in Jon himself and maybe that is a clue.

Alfie Allen:

What did you ask him (GRRM) about in return?

You know, I asked him about who Jon Snow's real parents were, and he told me. I can't say who, but I can tell you that it involves a bit of a Luke Skywalker situation. It will all come to fruition eventually. The whole thing with all the fight over proper succession is partly inspired by the War of the Roses in the late 1400s, and back then, to ensure pedigree, the monarchies were kind of inbred. It's definitely fucked up, but it definitely happened back then, so that's why there's incest with the Targaryen line. It's toned down, though.

Sophie Turner:

Richard Madden and Kit Harington said the guys in the cast text each other to share theories and geek out. Do the girls get in on that action?

We're all really close. We constantly Skype. And I was just having a conversation with Emilia about all this, because I have all these theories about who Jon Snow's mother and father really are. I think that his mother is Lyanna Stark, Ned's sister, and I think his father is not Ned, but that Ned just took him on, that his father was actually Rhaegar Targaryen.

As for D&D, we have tons of interview we have already linked/quoted (Emmy panel being the last one).

I'd add this tidbit from the NYTimes:

Recognizing that the novels couldn’t be condensed into films, Mr. Benioff and Mr. Weiss sought to adapt them as a television series for HBO, but had to pass several trials along the way. The first was winning over Mr. Martin in a lunchtime meeting that was mostly collegial, but where Mr. Weiss and Mr. Benioff were quizzed about the parents of Jon Snow, a “Game of Thrones” character of mysterious lineage. (“We had a whole conversation about it,” Mr. Benioff said, “and George was pleased that we got the answer right.”)

To be read together with this post of Ran (Elio):

Lets just say that if you can't figure out who Jon's parents might plausibly be from AGoT -- and AGoT alone -- then the theory doesn't work.

[...]

Because according to the editor of the series, after reading the manuscript of AGoT, GRRM asked her if she had an idea as to who Jon's parents were. She guessed right.

This, from the annotations she made for the Subtext edition of AGoT (Subtext is an ipad app).

This leaves many possible candidates, but suffice it to say, no one who has just read the manuscript of AGoT before any of the other books have seen the light of day would ever, for a moment, consider Mance Rayder as a potential father to Jon.

[UVA]

*Applause* FrozenFire! I was wondering what other cast members had commented on RLJ and viola you put this together!

[FrozenFire3]

*Applause* FrozenFire! I was wondering what other cast members had commented on RLJ and viola you put this together!

Thank you :blushing:

Related links available if needed :)

[The guy from the Vale]

*Applause* FrozenFire! I was wondering what other cast members had commented on RLJ and viola you put this together!

'voilà', I hope. Otherwise I don't know why you're writing about larger violins. ;)

And great post as usual, FrozenFire!

[Moët]

*Applause* FrozenFire! I was wondering what other cast members had commented on RLJ and viola you put this together!

:agree:

BRAVO!

[Jon Icefyre]

Now I need the like button! This is key to the theory that Ashara Dayne (or Wylla/fisherman's daughter) was the mother. People move.

Ppl don't move the way you're suggesting they did. Also i'm starting to think that you actually think Jon has two mothers or something, because one second you're arguing and giving a theory about Ashara as if she's definitely the mother, and the next second you're arguing for Wylla as if she's definitely the mother make up you're mind. It's one thing to say that both are a possibility but to argue both with such a strong resolve as if both are for sure the mother which is obviously impossible, shows us that you're really just looking for any possible way to not have to accept R+L=J or even acknowledge the fact that whether you like it or not, it is by far the most likely scenario in terms of who Jon's parents are which is something that even the most resolved of R+L=J detractors admit all the time. If you want to argue for Ashara and Wylla fine go ahead, but to honestly think that the theories of Ashara or Wylla being Jon's mother are even close to the same level of legitimacy/validity of R+L=J is beyond obsurd.

BTW @FrozenFire3 that post was absolutely epic! :bowdown:

[Moët]

Exactly Jon Icefyre.

And the truth is, people DON'T move. Most people in Westeros (and the Middle Ages this saga is based on), live and die within a mile of where they're born.

The only reasons people move is they've been either promoted or banished by the king, married off to another family, or another city has a market for your talents. They don't just decide they'd rather live in White Harbor and hire the boys at Riverrun U-Haul.