Did Stannis wanted Robert Baratheon to Die?

[W.Kane]

I thought your point was him telling Jon rather than his brother directly. He thought Jon would have more credibility. I'm sure that he did not want Robert dead.

now , that I think about it , this (what you said) is kind of my point , too. ha ha ha ha

[Associate Maester]

LOL , sad but true . poor old Ned , he was a very good man but not a very bright one. (btw, he is my second favorite character )

I mean. I like Ned....however his strategy did not work well.

[W.Kane]

"Trying very hard" is enough. Who in the books does try very hard to get something they don't want?

he didn't like Robert but he chose him over his king.

he didn't like Robert , but starved holding Storms End for him .

he didn't like Robert but he did Smashed the iron fleet for him .

this list can go on and on.

he did it out of loyalty to Robert .

now he is trying to take the throne because it is his duty , his duty to Robert , to his daughter and to the realm.

[Light a wight tonight]

So instead of telling Robert when there was still a chance for another heir to be made he decides to reveal it when it leaves him as the claimant to the throne. Cause that makes him come across as far more trustworthy.

He told Jon, who should have told Robert. The Tears of Lys(a) prevented that, but it was the plan. He should have gone to Robert after Jon died, but for watever reason he didn't. Quite possibly he thought he would be the next target. We don't know what's in his mind.

There's plenty of time for an heir right up until Robert's demise. Margaery would have born him several, in all likelihood.

[Dragonstoned]

True. If I did that, then I would have no grounds to call him a stinking hypocrite, now would I? However, I weigh a character's words against his actions. Similarly: while we weren't treated to Littlefinger's POV, I don't believe he was truthful when he promised Ned his support and the golden cloaks.

The entire Stannis plot is simply irreconcilable with a "Stannis who doesn't want the throne".

Littlefinger demonstrably lied though, or at least changed his mind quite drastically. It's a much simpler case than Stannis's attitude towards the Iron Throne over the course of 5+ books.

"Trying very hard" is enough. Who in the books does try very hard to get something they don't want?

People can do things they don't really want to do, just because they think it's the right thing to do. Don't think it's beyond the realms of possibility that this is what motivates Stannis. Of course, there's then the question of whether anyone can intentionally do something without an ounce of want involved, and I suspect there is a negligible amount of want in what Stannis does.

I would say that Stannis wants to win the Iron Throne but doesn't want the Throne per se. Difficult to argue about because it's rooted in psycho-philosophy.

[Penguin king]

I think there is a a definate possibility that Stannis was waiting for the death of Robert so he could take the throne. Those months he spent on Dragonstone are mostly unaccounted for. We know that he made no attempt during that time to contact Ned or Robert with what he had discovered. We also know that he was raising his bannners and putting a fleet together, and that no one who arrived on Dragonstone during those months was allowed to leave. Other than that we have little idea what he was doing or what his plans were.

Even if he wasn't actively working against his brother, there's very little indication that what he was doing during that time was in Robert's best interests. He claims not to want the throne, but goes to great lengths to see himself sat upon it. Maester Aemon was put in the same position as Stannis finds himself in in ACOK and he graciously stepped aside, taking the Black so that his younger brother could rule without challenge. Stannis on the other hand had Renly assasinated rather than support him.

[jons nissa]

I would say that Stannis wants to win the Iron Throne but doesn't want the Throne per se. Difficult to argue about because it's rooted in psycho-philosophy.

this is the first sentence I've seen on the forum that comes close to truly explaining stannis and his motivation, as i have understood his words AND his actions. nice.

*wish i'd thought of it myself*

[jon stark I]

Robert and Stannis were apart from each other for a very long time they didn't share any childhood memories together.They didn't have anything in common.Robert loved Ned as his brother because they really grew up as brothers.They trained by the same master at arms, the same maester and they did have a father figure behind them.I think Robert gave the Hand duty to Ned because he knew Ned better then Stannis and he gave Renly a better tower because Renly was like Roberts son in a way when Stannis remembers Renly he remembers him as a boy.Stannis's only fault was not being cute enough for hugs.

Despite all their difference Stannis cares for Robert not out of love but because of his duty to his brother and king.

[StannisandDaeny]

^ Good post jon stark but you're overlooking one thing. Ned's the one Robert hasn't seen for a long time at the start of the story when he decides to make him hand, Stannis has been on the small council as the grand admiral for years at that point and has had to endure a lot of his brother.

Maester Aemon was put in the same position as Stannis finds himself in in ACOK and he graciously stepped aside, taking the Black so that his younger brother could rule without challenge. Stannis on the other hand had Renly assasinated rather than support him.

Yes Penguin, simply because Renly thinks he'd be the best King and threatening to kill Stannis (and everyone else who doesn't bow to his unrightful claim, including the Northmen) with a far larger army which he got for owning Storm's End which shouldn't have even belonged to him, Stannis should've condemned himself to a life as a Night's Watchman, give up all his titles, stop serving the realm (because whatever you say about him, he did well on the small council and as master of the fleet), disinherit all his children while he's at it and so on and so forth. That really makes a lot of sense. Do you even realize what you're saying? Why should it somehow be okay for Renly (who doesn't even have a claim) to try and grab the throne, and not Stannis, who *is* the King? Stannis is not just trying to take the Crown for himself, he also has a duty to his bannermen, and his family. You're also forgetting Renly would not rule without challenge, far from it!

Robert would have never believed Stannis if Stannis told him his sons were bastards. We all know their relationship, and apart from that Stannis is the man who would benefit most from it if people believed Robert's sons are bastards so he's very unlikely to be believed - he had to wait for someone else to reveal the truth. If he did as Ned did, he would've ended up as Ned did. He knew war could have been coming and that the Lannisters were probably going to get rid of him in some other way (he'd be a threat as long as he was alive and despite it being unlikely could still father a son who would also become a threat), so he prepared himself. Stannis couldn't know Ned was going to be stupid and tell Cersei first, or that the Lannisters would go as far as killing Robert to speed things up.

If Ned HAD told Robert about Cersei and Jaime it would have started a war against the Lannisters, so it is logical for Stannis to prepare for war while he's at Dragonstone! Not for himself, but for his brother! Jezus people!

That is all.

[lady m]

If Stannis really didn't want the Throne, he had a thousand chances to give up on his claim. And his talk of "duty above all" is quite funny given that for many months he kept a deadly secret he had a duty to tell Robert ASAP.

I agree with the last part, and this is where I find the most fault with Stannis. He had a duty to do everything he could to expose Cersei while Robert was alive, and he didn't. I do find him wanting in that regard. Had Stannis worked to expose Cersei Robert, or more likely Jon Arryn or Ned could have found a way to negotiate an end to the marriage, sending them into exile or to The Rock. It would have been difficult, since Robert let himself get so in debt to Tywin, but Tywin would have been incredibly angry at Cersei for bringing humiliation upon House Lannister. New wife, new heirs.

However, I do not fault Stannis at all for his dogged pursuit of the throne after Robert dies. Neither Joffrey, nor Tommen are children of Robert's body, but they rule the Kingdoms in the name of and with the authority offered them through Robert Baratheon. As long as they choose to do that, Stannis has a duty to pursue the throne.

[Associate Maester]

I think there is a a definate possibility that Stannis was waiting for the death of Robert so he could take the throne. Those months he spent on Dragonstone are mostly unaccounted for. We know that he made no attempt during that time to contact Ned or Robert with what he had discovered. We also know that he was raising his bannners and putting a fleet together, and that no one who arrived on Dragonstone during those months was allowed to leave. Other than that we have little idea what he was doing or what his plans were.

Even if he wasn't actively working against his brother, there's very little indication that what he was doing during that time was in Robert's best interests. He claims not to want the throne, but goes to great lengths to see himself sat upon it. Maester Aemon was put in the same position as Stannis finds himself in in ACOK and he graciously stepped aside, taking the Black so that his younger brother could rule without challenge. Stannis on the other hand had Renly assasinated rather than support him.

Well, it is great that Aemon T. did that. However, Stannis is not Aemon and vice versa. Okay, so Stannis totally should have just stepped aside so Renly, the younger brother could become king. Or you know, maybe Renly could've done the dutiful and lawful option by supporting his elder brother. So, no responsibility on Renly. Stannis should have totally just capitulated. I do not understand this line of reasoning.

[Penguin king]

Yes Penguin, simply because Renly thinks he'd be the best King and threatening to kill Stannis with a far larger army which he got for owning Storm's End which shouldn't have even belonged to him, Stannis should've condemned himself to a life as a Night's Watchman, forget all his titles, disinherit all his children while he's at it and so on and so forth. That really makes a lot of sense. Do you even realize what you're saying? Why should it somehow be okay for Renly (who doesn't even have a claim) to try and grab the throne, and not Stannis, who *is* the King? Stannis is not just trying to take the Crown for himself, he also has a duty to his bannermen, and his family.

Aemon's claim was better than Aegon's but he stepped aside because he didn't want the crown. People are arguing that Stannis didn't want the crown either, but He's gone to some pretty large extremes to see himself sat upon it. Stannis had already declared before he met up with Renly, so don't pretend he only decided to be king after Renly threatened him.

You act like the idea of letting his younger brother take the throne is crazy, but the fact is that Aemon did condem himself to life as a Night's watchman, forsake his titles and the right to a family so that Aegon could be king. The point is, that the precedent exists. If Stannis truely didn't want to be king no one would have foreced him to be. He had enough trouble finding followers as it is. He claims that it's all about honor, and duty, but there are ways he could decline without forsaking either.

Robert would have never believed Stannis if Stannis told him his sons were bastards. We all know their relationship, and apart from that Stannis is the man who would benefit most from it if people believed Robert's sons are bastards so he's very unlikely to be believed - he had to wait for someone else to reveal the truth. If he did as Ned did, he would've ended up as Ned did. He knew war could have been coming and that the Lannisters were probably going to get rid of him in some other way (he'd be a threat as long as he was alive and despite it being unlikely could still father a son), so he prepared himself. Stannis couldn't know Ned was going to be stupid and tell Cersei first, or that the Lannisters would go as far as killing Robert to speed things up.

If Ned HAD told Robert it would have started a war against the Lannisters, so it is logical for Stannis to prepare for war while he's at dragonstone! Not for himself, but for his brother! Jezus people!

That is all.

So in order to protect his brother, he gives him no warning. Makes no attempts to approach Roberts trusted friend and Hand. Stops looking for any evidence or support to back his claims. Shuts himself away from all attempts to be reached and raises a secret army behind his brother's back. Gee I wonder why that plan failed....

[Penguin king]

Well, it is great that Aemon T. did that. However, Stannis is not Aemon and vice versa. Okay, so Stannis totally should have just stepped aside so Renly, the younger brother could become king. Or you know, maybe Renly could've done the dutiful and lawful option by supporting his elder brother. So, no responsibility on Renly. Stannis should have totally just capitulated. I do not understand this line of reasoning.

If Stannis truly didn't want to be king, then why not? Renly had the love of the common people, he had the support of the Tyrells and the Stormlands, He clearly wanted the throne which is a plus. Why should Renly give all that up to support Stannis in claiming a crown he says he doesn't want and is only interested in out of a misplaced sense of duty?

[Dragonstoned]

Think the difference between Aemon and Stannis was that Aegon V didn't declare himself king while Renly did (thereby committing treason).

And how do we know that Stannis wasn't doing what he thought was best for Robert by going to Dragonstone and trying to muster his strength? If he'd stayed in KL he may have been killed, if he'd told Robert he may have been disbelieved, if he'd told Ned then that puts him in danger too.

[Associate Maester]

If Stannis truly didn't want to be king, then why not? Renly had the love of the common people, he had the support of the Tyrells and the Stormlands, He clearly wanted the throne which is a plus. Why should Renly give all that up to support Stannis in claiming a crown he says he doesn't want and is only interested in out of a misplaced sense of duty?

By law Stannis is the rightful king, not Renly. Renly rebelled and he paid for it. You're arguing using Renly's line of reasoning (which, hey go for it). Again, Renly shouldn't have to...but Stannis should have. That whacky Stannis. He's damned if he does, damned if he doesn't.

[Penguin king]

What exactly was Stannis planing to do with this army? March on kingslanding to remove the Lannisters? If Robert didn't trust his brother enough to believe his words, then he's hardly going to trust him after he assults his capital city with 5000 armed soliders

Or was he expecting that Robert would just discover the incest himself one day after 15 years without a clue. If Littlefiger hadn't gone to great lengths to convince the Starks that Jon Arryn was murdered then Ned would never have gone investigating, and the truth would probably have never have come out.

Or alternatively, if Stannis got wind that Ned was looking, then why didn't he contact him to let him know what he'd already discovered? Ned would have made a natural ally,

[Lord Varys]

We don't yet know the exact details, but it's clear that Stannis started to suspect that Cersei's children are not Robert's children. And he was afraid that Robert would not believe him if he told him his assumptions without proof. Due to the complicated relationship between Stannis and Robert my guess is that Robert would have refused to hear anything about it from Stannis since womanizer like Robert would have never admitted that Stannis should have realized something about his own wife that could not. After all, poor Stannis is not very popular with the other sex. Further, Stannis would have been the man to profit if Cersei's children had been declared illegitimate. He had any reason to fear that Cersei would accuse him of trying to take the Iron Throne for himself.

That's why he went to Jon Arryn in the first place.

After Jon Arryn died, Stannis most certainly talked to Robert, expecting he would be named Hand in Jon's place. After all, Jon and Stannis were the two men holding the Realm together. They were the only men on the council who effectively tried to manage the Realm for Robert (Varys, Littlefinger, Pycelle, and even Renly had their own agendas). My guess is that Stannis intended to uncover the truth and tell Robert after he had been named Hand. Instead, Robert decided to name Ned Hand. But that was not the only thing that got Stannis pissed, I think, since Jon apparently intended to foster his son Robert on Dragonstone. But Cersei intervened to try to gain leverage over Lysa Arryn and convinced Robert to foster Robert at Casterly Rock. That's when Lysa decided to leave the capital.

Stannis only left for Dragonstone after Robert had set out for Winterfell. Sure, it would have been better to stick around, but he was pissed. And preparing the fleet and his own bannermen for a coming war with Casterly Rock was no bad idea. We should also keep in mind that Stannis had no reason to assume that Ned would dig into the mystery of Jon Arryn's death. Nor could he foresee that he would prevent Ned from learning the truth soon by leaving the capital. Stannis did not know Ned very well, and I'm inclined that he did not know whether talking to Ned - again, without proof - would help in that matter. He may have had no idea about the bad relationship between Ned and Jaime.

Finally we have any reason to believe that Stannis and Robert had a very difficult relationship. Stannis obviously envied Robert his skill and charisma (this topic is raised in ADwD when Stannis is very pissed after Asha mentions Robert's war tactics). But Stannis also had a keen eye for Robert's weaknesses and apparently got more and more resentful after he realized that no one seemed to care that Robert's positive qualities were no match for his bad habits. We don't even know if Stannis is a knight. And Robert on the other hand most likely was a terrible bigger brother. He made fun of Stannis' pet hawk, for instance. Robert and Stannis grew up together, he only left for the Eyrie, it seems, after their parents drowned.

Oh, and by the way: Renly declared himself king before without knowing anything about Cersei's children. He did not only rebel against Stannis, he rebelled against Robert's children as well. And he intended to kill them. Stannis could have abdicated, sure, but a man like him would have never been able to see himself in the mirror afterwards. And besides, Renly could have helped to put Stannis on the Iron Throne by allying with the Tyrells and declaring for Stannis. He did not do that, either.

[Penguin king]

By law Stannis is the rightful king, not Renly. Renly rebelled and he paid for it. You're arguing using Renly's line of reasoning (which, hey go for it). Again, Renly shouldn't have to...but Stannis should have. That whacky Stannis. He's damned if he does, damned if he doesn't.

No I'm arguing that If Stannis didn't want to be king he didn't have to. Renly was there and Aemon had already set the precendent. He could have supported his brother and washed his hands of the whole affair. Barely anyone wanted Stannis as king anyway.

The only alternative is that Stannis really does want to be the king, and all his talk of " I never asked for this crown. Gold is cold & heavy on the head" and "I am king. Wants do not enter into it." is only so much self-serving crap. Deluding himself from his true motives.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Aerys? If you only knew… that was a hard choosing. My blood or my liege. My brother or my king… It still angers me. How could he think I would hurt the boy? I chose Robert, did I not? When that hard day came, I chose blood over honour.

No, he didn't wanted Robbert dead.

[Associate Maester]

No I'm arguing that If Stannis didn't want to be king he didn't have to. Renly was there and Aemon had already set the precendent. He could have supported his brother and washed his hands of the whole affair. Barely anyone wanted Stannis as king anyway.

The only alternative is that Stannis really does want to be the king, and all his talk of " I never asked for this crown. Gold is cold & heavy on the head" and "I am king. Wants do not enter into it." is only so much self-serving crap. Deluding himself from his true motives.

For Stannis he had no choice because he is driven by duty and justice (I would argue duty rates even higher than justice. Justice for him means the laws of the land). He had a duty. He did it. There is no choice in the worldview that Stannis inhabits. You can disagree. However, my reading, understanding, and interpretation is just as a valid as those that differ.