dragonstone gargoyles - weirwoods counterpart? a comparison

[The Others Take Ya]

Warning: very long post... I hope you find it's worth it. :)

I've always wondered what the black "ebony" was on the doors of the HoB&W. What do the FM know about that black stuff that makes it equal to weirwood when they put it together in their doors? It's as integral as the white, but we don't have a good explanation for what the black is.

Here's the relevant quote describing the doors from Arya's POV in AFFC:

At the top she found a set of carved wooden doors twelve feet high. The left-hand door was made of weirwood pale as bone, the right of gleaming ebony. In their center was a carved moon face; ebony on the weirwood side, weirwood on the ebony. The look of it reminded her somehow of the heart tree in the godswood at Winterfell. The doors are watching me, she thought. She pushed upon both doors at once with the flat of her gloved hands, but neither one would budge. Locked and barred.

“Let me in, you stupid,” she said. “I crossed the narrow sea.” She made a fist and pounded. “Jaqen told me to come. I have the iron coin.” She pulled it from her pouch and held it up. “See? Valar morghulis.”

The doors made no reply, except to open.

They opened inward all in silence, with no human hand to move them.

Ebony also happens to be how Ned Stark describes the doors to Thobo Mott's shop in AGOT, so the above isn't the only POV.

One of the literal definitions of ebony is: "tropical tree of southern Asia having hard dark-colored heartwood used in cabinetwork".

The word heartwood stood out to me since we see the hearttree mentioned as another name for the weirwood. But we haven't seen any sort of black heart tree in the story. We have however, seen a lot of black stone gargoyles, so it made me wonder if perhaps the black stone we see is derived from old petrified black heart trees. Perhaps these trees used to be on Essos or Valyria. The dragon eggs were petrified stone, and they hatched.

This could explain how dragonstone and its black walls and gargoyles seem to share some properties with Winterfell's gargoyles and godswood when its described. And perhaps why we have similarities between the two castles.

There is another mention in the text in ADWD about weirwoods being petrified in ADWD, and that happens to be about the Raventree at the Blackwood castle.

Through their thick, diamond-shaped panes of yellow glass Jaime glimpsed the gnarled limbs of the tree from which the castle took its name. It was a weirwood ancient and colossal, ten times the size of the one in the Stone Garden at Casterly Rock. This tree was bare and dead, though.

“The Brackens poisoned it,” said his host. “For a thousand years it has not shown a leaf. In another thousand it will have turned to stone, the maesters say. Weirwoods never rot.”

“And the ravens?” asked Jaime. “Where are they?”

“They come at dusk and roost all night. Hundreds of them. They cover the tree like black leaves, every limb and every branch. They have been coming for thousands of years. How or why, no man can say, yet the tree draws them every night.”

Its also interesting that this happens to be our Targaryen greenseer's home - Bloodraven. This passage suggests that the stone dragon eggs should be at least 2000 years old before they became petrified, and that predates even the rise of Valyria. Could dragon eggs always have been stone? or could they just turn to stone faster?

Plus, Casterly Rock has a weirwood in a stone garden! Lannisters have one in the south that isn't cut down!

So, based on that assumption that the black "ebony" may actually the petrified substance that helps make up Dragonstone and its black walls and gargoyles in petrified form, I give you the following (lengthy) comparison to help you consider this possibility:

DRAGONSTONE'S GARGOYLES VS WEIRWOODS

Here's our first impression of Dragonstone, as Cressen in the ACOK prologue describes his balcony:

The maester stood on the windswept balcony outside his chambers. It was here the ravens came, after long flight. Their droppings speckled the gargoyles that rose twelve feet tall on either side of him, a hellhound and a wyvern, two of the thousand that brooded over the walls of the ancient fortress. When first he came to Dragonstone, the army of stone grotesques had made him uneasy, but as the years passed he had grown used to them. Now he thought of them as old friends. The three of them watched the sky together with foreboding.

The maester did not believe in omens. And yet... old as he was, Cressen had never seen a comet half so bright, nor yet that color, that terrible color, the color of blood and flame and sunsets. He wondered if his gargoyles had ever seen its like. They had been here so much longer than he had, and would still be here long after he was gone. If stone tongues could speak...

Such folly. He leaned against the battlement, the sea crashing beneath him, the black stone rough beneath his fingers. Talking gargoyles and prophecies in the sky. I am an old done man, grown giddy as a child again. Had a lifetime’s hard-won wisdom fled him along with his health and strength? He was a maester, trained and chained in the great Citadel of Oldtown. What had he come to, when superstition filled his head as if he were an ignorant fieldhand?

And yet... and yet... the comet burned even by day now, while pale grey steam rose from the hot vents of Dragonmont behind the castle, and yestermorn a white raven had brought word from the Citadel itself, word long-expected but no less fearful for all that, word of summer’s end. Omens, all. Too many to deny. What does it all mean? he wanted to cry.

From this passage I can see the following similarities with weirwoods:

• The ravens make a habit of perching on the the gargoyles, just like they tend to perch in the branches of the weirwood in Winterfell, and especially Raventree. There are also ravens making their nest on top of the broken tower in winterfell(Bran AGOT), which has many gargoyles in its stonework.
  
• He was scared of them at first, but now they seem like old friends. He even goes as far to say that Dragonstone has never felt like home (in another passage). Other characters have felt similarly towards the weirwoods, although for some, the weirwoods never seem to become friendly to them (Catelyn). Its interesting to note other POV have the same conclusions about the dragonskulls hidden in the red keep. Also black.
  
• He muses about them possibly speaking to him. Thinking himself mad. We've seen others (Bran, Arya, Theon, Osha...) all have experienced or heard weirwoods communicating with them. Usually through whispers.
  
• Recently, pale grey steam has been rising from the vents, perhaps a similar underground spring like Winterfell's godswood hot springs has somehow been woken up by the birth of the dragons? Its curious to think that it just started, and Winterfell's has had its hot spring for a long time now. The godswood itself seems to be very changed since ADWD though, probably mostly due to Bran's influence, but this makes me wonder if there were other factors.
  

Most interestingly, the two gargoyles that Cressen mentions specifically are the 12 foot tall hellhound (direwolf?) and wyvren (dragon?). There isn't much description of the height of other gargoyles in the text except to say that they were in place of regular square crenelations on the tops of the castle walls, and I'm not sure, but I don't think crenelations are normally so high.

This suggests the other gargoyles are smaller and these two larger on Maester Cressen's balcony.

Maester Cressen seems to view these as not just different from the others but sentient and he's able to sense their moods when he thinks:

The three of them watched the sky together with foreboding.

Since Dragonstone was built 100 years before the doom, and before Aegon's conquest, the hellhound and the wyvren seem to point at a significant link to Winterfell that existed even before the conquest.

Otherwise why would these two versions of the two larger gargoyles be shaped in these forms instead of just two wyvrens?

Cressen isn't the only one to feel something from the gargoyles of dragonstone, here's Davos' impression of them as Mel burns the seven gods from the dragonstone sept:

The old dry wood and countless layers of paint and varnish blazed with a fierce hungry light. Heat rose shimmering through the chill air; behind, the gargoyles and stone dragons on the castle walls seemed blurred, as if Davos were seeing them through a veil of tears. Or as if the beasts were trembling, stirring...

And as indifferent to the gods as he is, Davos still acts on old superstitions when it comes to the gargoyles:

He took his leave of his sons and turned his steps toward the inn. Out front squatted a waist-high gargoyle, so eroded by rain and salt that his features were all but obliterated. He and Davos were old friends, though. He gave a pat to the stone head as he went in. “Luck,” he murmured.

So perhaps there's a certain amount of respect there. :)

WINTERFELL'S GARGOYLES AND DREAMS

Bran climbs the walls of the broken tower with the help of the Winterfell gargoyles and literally hangs out with them and on them even as he listened to Jaime and Cercei in the background. Early on, Bran personifies them them in ways similar to Cressen, however after his exposures to the 3EC, this progresses into self-identifying with them.

ACOK, Bran and co survey the damage from the fire at Winterfell:

They stood in the shadow of the First Keep, or what remained of it. One whole side of the building had torn loose and fallen away. Stone and shattered gargoyles lay strewn across the yard. They fell just where I did, Bran thought when he saw them. Some of the gargoyles had broken into so many pieces it made him wonder how he was alive at all. Nearby some crows were pecking at a body crushed beneath the tumbled stone, but he lay facedown and Bran could not say who he was.

Bran's thoughts of them parallel his own events and emotional states. Since Bran himself is a greenseer in the weirwoods now, perhaps this relationship may extend to the gargoyles in ways that haven't been explored yet.

Bran also had a significant nightmare that included the gargoyles earlier on in AGOT after his accident:

The earth was a thousand miles beneath him and he could not fly. He could not fly. He waited until his heart had stopped pounding, until he could breathe, and he began to climb again. There was no way to go but up. Far above him, outlined against a vast pale moon, he thought he could see the shapes of gargoyles. His arms were sore and aching, but he dared not rest. He forced himself to climb faster. The gargoyles watched him ascend. Their eyes glowed red as hot coals in a brazier. Perhaps once they had been lions, but now they were twisted and grotesque. Bran could hear them whispering to each other in soft stone voices terrible to hear. He must not listen, he told himself, he must not hear, so long as he did not hear them he was safe. But when the gargoyles pulled themselves loose from the stone and padded down the side of the tower to where Bran clung, he knew he was not safe after all. “I didn’t hear,” he wept as they came closer and closer, “I didn’t, I didn’t.”

There are many interesting parallels to the weirwood here:

• Bran senses the gargoyles watching him.
  
• Bran sees them in his dreams with red eyes, similar to the eyes of weirwood.
  
• The gargoyles whisper to him, similar to how weirwoods whisper in the godswood.
  
• The gargoyles move and pad around like animals to visit Bran. In another dream Bran sees the weirwood looking at its face the pool and then up at him so its not just the gargoyles he dreams of as having some mobility.
  

There is strong imagery of the pale moon (from which Dany was told, dragons hatched) with the outline of the gargoyle in it. Could this be a reference to the gargoyle being related to dragons in Bran's dream? The moon is also carved into center of the doors of the FM's HoB&W, with each half in the opposite substance of the side of the door it is on. If gargoyles are related to dragons in some way then this suggests a link Winterfell has had with them since it was built 8000 years ago.

Even Rikon seems fixated on the gargoyles after both boys had dreamt of the death of their father in AGOT. This is from after Shaggydog's attack on Maester Luwin, up in his chambers:

“I’m four now,” Rickon said. He was peeking through the lens tube at the gargoyles on the First Keep.

DRAGONSTONE DREAMS

Another interesting parallel, is that Dragonstone seems to affect the dreams of the people living in it. One has to wonder how much this was a factor in the Targaryen's family history of prophetic dreaming. (Maegor the Cruel never explains why he had to build the red keep when they already had a seat of power at Dragonstone. Was it planned from Aegon the conqueror's time? or was Maegor too cruel and kept having bad dreams? :laugh: ) This is another parallel to how the weirwoods affect the people that sleep near a full tree or even their stumps as we've seen with Arya at High Heart and with Jaime before he went to save Brienne.

Shireen's nightmares and a Dragonstone history:

“I had bad dreams,” Shireen told him. “About the dragons. They were coming to eat me.”

The child had been plagued by nightmares as far back as Maester Cressen could recall. “We have talked of this before,” he said gently. “The dragons cannot come to life. They are carved of stone, child. In olden days, our island was the westernmost outpost of the great Freehold of Valyria. It was the Valyrians who raised this citadel, and they had ways of shaping stone since lost to us. A castle must have towers wherever two walls meet at an angle, for defense. The Valyrians fashioned these towers in the shape of dragons to make their fortress seem more fear-some, just as they crowned their walls with a thousand gargoyles instead of simple crenellations.”

Maester Cressen takes a nap before the dinner where he plans to kill Mellisandre:

It is a dreadful thing I do, yet it must be done. If there are gods, surely they will forgive me. He had slept so poorly of late. A nap would refresh him for the ordeal ahead. Wearily, he tottered off to his bed. Yet when he closed his eyes, he could still see the light of the comet, red and flery and vividly alive amidst the darkness of his dreams. Perhaps it is my comet, he thought drowsily at the last, just before sleep took him. An omen of blood, foretelling murder... yes...

Once Stannis became a kinslayer, there were also times he was plagued by dreams:

The king was often occupied, Davos learned from his son Devan, one of the royal squires. Now that Stannis Baratheon had come into his power, the lordlings buzzed around him like flies round a corpse. He looks half a corpse too, years older than when I left Dragonstone. Devan said the king scarcely slept of late. “Since Lord Renly died, he has been troubled by terrible nightmares,” the boy had confided to his father. “Maester’s potions do not touch them. Only the Lady Melisandre can soothe him to sleep.”

Now its possible that this situation is just regular guilt over being a kinslayer, or that Mel is the one causing the dreams so she can "soothe" him. :ack: But I wanted to point this out to offer the additional possibility that it could be dragonstone itself affecting his sleep because of what he's allowed Mel to do.

FINAL THOUGHTS

Here is a description from maester Luwin on how Winterfell came to be from Bran's POV in AGOT:

The place had grown over the centuries like some monstrous stone tree, Maester Luwin told him once, and its branches were gnarled and thick and twisted, its roots sunk deep into the earth.

I find it an interesting contrast to Maester Cressen's comments about how the Valyrians had ways of shaping stone that were lost to them. Could both castles have been "grown" into existence, and subsequently hardened into stone to complete them? Finishing touches for Targaryens would have been carving faces into the stone while the Starks carved the faces into the weirwood.

And here is a description of when Bran leaves it, in ACoK:

The stone is strong, Bran told himself, the roots of the trees go deep, and under the ground the Kings of Winter sit their thrones. So long as those remained, Winterfell remained. It was not dead, just broken. Like me, he thought. I’m not dead either.

Stone seems to be a pretty important component of its longevity, not just the roots and thrones.

On top of all the above parallels, we also see Tyrion being compared to gargoyles and a giant over and over in multiple places all over the books. Even from book one when Jon first notices him at the feast. I don't know what this means for all the Tyrion is a secret Targ theorists, other then its a consequence of how he looks, but it is interesting. Perhaps there is some sort of link with Casterly Rock that we haven't seen yet. Casterly Rock is also known for its good smiths, armorers and, well, being a big rock.

To finish this off, I guess for me, I'm not just going to wonder "Can a dragon be warged?" but now the opposite "Could Bran greensee through a gargoyle?". What do you think about the significance of gargoyles in the story? Do you think there is something there? Or is it a red herring from GRRM? Do you think its possible that the black stone of Dragonstone, specifically the gargoyles, could be the Targaryen counterpart for the Starks' weirwoods? Or instead, what's your theory for what the black part of the doors of the FM's HoB&W could be, besides plain old ebony?

[Bad Hound!]

Jez, this is interesting, but I have no idea how to answer your question - great post though, thanks!

[The Others Take Ya]

Jez, this is interesting, but I have no idea how to answer your question - great post though, thanks!

You're welcome! Glad you enjoyed it! :rolleyes:

[Turin Turambar]

All I can say is that it would be nice to see Winterfell rebuilt and inhabited again by a Stark :)

[wolfmaid7]

Very very interesting post and i will try my best to hit on points that really jump out at me.I am definitely going to zero in on the door. When it comes to the composition of the door to the HOB&W it is evident from what we know Weirwoods are instruments that channel,the opposite of that is the Ebony wood which in magic is used a lot as it is a great amplifier of powers in addition to being an instrument of protection.Wood on a whole in magic is very important as it is a good conductor of a person's ability or for the work that wants to be performed.Being able to channel and ward are to essentials in magic that on studying the craft is the basic things a seeker learns,depending on your tradition and your coven etc.

So i think there is definitely something there,and in addition to just uttering the words, passing though the door was the test of the the apprentice.It opens up a few questions regarding the Gargoyles at Dragon stone being a Wyvern and a Hellhound because as i said there is definitely something in how the Targs and Dragons are. I believe it is not a coincidence that those tow gargoyles are there so there maybe a connection between the Targs and the Starks that has been lost throughout time.

[mrlukeduke]

Warning: very long post... I hope you find it's worth it. :)

First off, superb post. Great job.

To finish this off, I guess for me, I'm not just going to wonder "Can a dragon be warged?" but now the opposite "Could Bran greensee through a gargoyle?".

I'm not sure a Dragon could be controlled via warging. And even if it could, probably not very well – not without a dangerous level of resistance anyway. But in some looser sense, I suppose Dany does warg Drogon. Warging seems like a skill that goes from entry-level "intuitive connection" to your animal/thing, right up to full control.

What do you think about the significance of gargoyles in the story? Do you think there is something there? Or is it a red herring from GRRM? Do you think its possible that the black stone of Dragonstone, specifically the gargoyles, could be the Targaryen counterpart for the Starks' weirwoods? Or instead, what's your theory for what the black part of the doors of the FM's HoB&W could be, besides plain old ebony?

My suspicion is that these gargoyles and stone shapings made from ancient magic/craft, act as little more than the sort of thing we saw in Tolkien's descriptions of the Tower of Cirith Ungol in The Lord of the Rings.

"They were like great figures seated upon thrones. Each had three joined bodies, and three heads facing outward, and in inward, and across the gateway. The heads had vulture faces, and on their great knees were laid clawlike hands. They seemed to be carved out of huge blocks of stone, immovable, and yet they were aware: some dreadful spirit of vigilance abode in them. They knew an enemy. Visible or invisible, none could pass unheeded."

However, in lost Westerosi lore, perhaps they were originally there to defend against a more ancient enemy, the White Walkers? Just in case the Wall failed again, or perhaps in addition to it; somewhere for people to retreat into during another Long Winter.

Maybe the Weirwoods are used in similar fashion, e.g. to guard entrance ways, but I think the Weirwood trees are more complex and sentient.

[The Others Take Ya]

Very very interesting post and i will try my best to hit on points that really jump out at me.I am definitely going to zero in on the door. When it comes to the composition of the door to the HOB&W it is evident from what we know Weirwoods are instruments that channel,the opposite of that is the Ebony wood which in magic is used a lot as it is a great amplifier of powers in addition to being an instrument of protection.Wood on a whole in magic is very important as it is a good conductor of a person's ability or for the work that wants to be performed.Being able to channel and ward are to essentials in magic that on studying the craft is the basic things a seeker learns,depending on your tradition and your coven etc. So i think there is definitely something there,and in addition to just uttering the words, passing though the door was the test of the the apprentice.It opens up a few questions regarding the Gargoyles at Dragon stone being a Wyvern and a Hellhound because as i said there is definitely something in how the Targs and Dragons are. I believe it is not a coincidence that those tow gargoyles are there so there maybe a connection between the Targs and the Starks that has been lost throughout time.

Interesting, in this story there is no doubt the weirwood is used as a conductor or channel for the greenseer themselves. I've always had the nagging feeling that its always been a prison for all the first men greenseers, and that all the faces weren't necessarily carved, but entrapped there. I've thought the book has been hinting that way ever since Theon saw Bran's face in the weirwood, and the faces are always described as being old. It makes me wonder if the weirwood in the nightfort is the old night's king himself, or an original greenseer from the time of the pact. Could the Gargoyles be dragon greenseers? Or the CotF greenseer counterparts to the First Men in the weirwoods?

First off, superb post. Great job. I'm not sure a Dragon could be controlled via warging. And even if it could, probably not very well – not without a dangerous level of resistance anyway. But in some looser sense, I suppose Dany does warg Drogon. Warging seems like a skill that goes from entry-level "intuitive connection" to your animal/thing, right up to full control.

My suspicion is that these gargoyles and stone shapings made from ancient magic/craft, act as little more than the sort of thing we saw in Tolkien's descriptions of the Tower of Cirith Ungol in The Lord of the Rings.

However, in lost Westerosi lore, perhaps they were originally there to defend against a more ancient enemy, the White Walkers? Just in case the Wall failed again, or perhaps in addition to it; somewhere for people to retreat into during another Long Winter. Maybe the Weirwoods are used in similar fashion, e.g. to guard entrance ways, but I think the Weirwood trees are more complex and sentient.

First I'd like to clarify I'm using "warging" in a very loose sense of the word. I know nothing is confirmed in the novel yet when it comes to this kind of first men relationship when it comes to dragons so yah, I'm not being exact here since I can't.

Second, we've been told that Winterfell has always been the winter haven for the north. When winter hits apparently a whole town gets populated right beside it (IIRC Winterstown?) that is sparsely populated in summer and the castle gets swamped with people inside it as well. The heat from the hot springs warms it and the greenhouse, otherwise people would starve and freeze to death back in their regular villages. Those hot springs are crucial and may have something to do with dragons/gargoyles being a protective influence. I don't know the geography of Westeros very well, but I thought hot springs usually originated around volcanoes and I don't recall one around Winterfell on the map.

The springs and the gargoyles seem to suggest that the "dragonkind" (if they hadn't evolved into actual dragons yet) had been protecting the north when they helped build Winterfell 8000-10000 years ago. I give a range, because Catelyn's 1st chapter says the godswood is 10000 years old, but Winterfell is apparently only 8000 and the castle grew around it.

Third, the more I think about Casterly Rock, and how the Andal Lann the clever tricked the First Men's Casterly family out of it, the more I wonder if the Targs' Dragonstone stronghold was meant to be a replacement for it some 1000 years ago. If a long winter hit, it would be vital, but it seems like the regular winters they had were not such a big deal in the south and they may have forgotten why they needed it. The CotF must have known another long night and horrible winter would have been coming based on their enduring knowledge, so the must have known the need for shelter was there. Maybe the CotF let the Valyrian's put their outpost there just so that they could take it over when needed after killing them in the doom? Casterly Rock could have hot springs and guardian gargoyles too.

Tyrion mentions he had dragon dreams when he was younger, and this must have been when he was living at the Rock as well. Could the dreams have stopped when he left the Rock?

I really want to see Casterly Rock now! I have to dig up some quotes to get a good idea about it I'm so curious! XD It even has a tomb like Winterfell's.

That's everything about Casterly Rock. :-)

On to new information: I found another post describing the HoB&W doors in the HotU. At first I thought the description would be the same, but, its surprisingly different:

From Dany's vision in the HotU, ACoK:

Finally the stair opened. To her right, a set of wide wooden doors had been thrown open. They were fashioned of ebony and weirwood, the black and white grains swirling and twisting in strange interwoven patterns. They were very beautiful, yet somehow frightening.

...

She took a step forward. But then Drogon leapt from her shoulder. He flew to the top of the ebony-and-weirwood door, perched there, and began to bite at the carved wood.

“A willful beast,” laughed a handsome young man. “Shall we teach you the secret speech of dragonkind? Come, come.”

Doubt seized her. The great door was so heavy it took all of Dany’s strength to budge it, but finally it began to move.

Is this saying that the door, is all made of ebony and weirwood intermixed? So not one side ebony and one side weirwood? I admit every time I read it I keep imagining the set of doors with the different colors separated, but I never realized the HotU has them interwoven. There is an ebony and weirwood set of doors with each side being separate in AGOT at Thobo Mott's shop as previously mentined. IIRC there is no mention of a moon face.

Also, I may have found a passage with black wood in the North, from Bran I AGOT:

Finally his lord father gave a command, and two of his guardsmen dragged the ragged man to the ironwood stump in the center of the square. They forced his head down onto the hard black wood.

...

beheading happens

...

Bran could not take his eyes off the blood. The snows around the stump drank it eagerly, reddening as he watched.

I found it interesting it was called ironwood. Iron being affiliated with the First Men, while CotF were using bronze tools. This made me think of Braavos and the titan, who has black granite stone legs and bronze skirt, breastplate, halfhelm and sword. I think the CotF are the hidden architects of all the most impressive fortifications in ASOIAF. XD

late late edit: it has since been pointed out to me that the Quartheen trees with the blue sap are probably what makes up the black wood on the door. So that's probably where the current wood comes from. Perhaps the ironwood is the petrified version of it.

[Arya_Ghostface]

I like the analysis here. I agree with most points, as in, this is valid speculation. We can't know if it's true, but at least there si evidence in the book to support everything you said here.

On a tangential note, after reading this quote:

Also, I may have found a passage with black wood in the North, from Bran I AGOT:

Quote

Finally his lord father gave a command, and two of his guardsmen dragged the ragged man to the ironwood stump in the center of the square. They forced his head down onto the hard black wood.

...

beheading happens

...

Bran could not take his eyes off the blood. The snows around the stump drank it eagerly, reddening as he watched.

I found it interesting it was called ironwood. Iron being affiliated with the First Men, while CotF were using bronze tools. This made me think of Braavos and the titan, who has black granite stone legs and bronze skirt, breastplate, halfhelm and sword. I think the CotF are the hidden architects of all the most impressive fortifications in ASOIAF. XD

late late edit: it has since been pointed out to me that the Quartheen trees with the blue sap are probably what makes up the black wood on the door. So that's probably where the current wood comes from. Perhaps the ironwood is the petrified version of it.

and having very recently re-read Bran's last chapter in aDwD where he witnesses the blood sacrifice of the First Men, I can't help but notice the similarity: in GoT Bran notices how the ground around the tree stump soaks the blood from the death 'eagerly', in aDwD the blood from the beheading must have followed a similar course being soaked trough the ground and up the trees roots, since Bran can taste the blood. One could argue that if the tree stump were a tree, it would have 'drunk' up the blood too. It is interesting though that it's a different type of tree. Is this a suggestion that blood magic isn't limited to weirwood trees?

[The Others Take Ya]

I like the analysis here. I agree with most points, as in, this is valid speculation. We can't know if it's true, but at least there si evidence in the book to support everything you said here.

On a tangential note, after reading this quote:

and having very recently re-read Bran's last chapter in aDwD where he witnesses the blood sacrifice of the First Men, I can't help but notice the similarity: in GoT Bran notices how the ground around the tree stump soaks the blood from the death 'eagerly', in aDwD the blood from the beheading must have followed a similar course being soaked trough the ground and up the trees roots, since Bran can taste the blood. One could argue that if the tree stump were a tree, it would have 'drunk' up the blood too. It is interesting though that it's a different type of tree. Is this a suggestion that blood magic isn't limited to weirwood trees?

I think it is suggesting other trees have had blood sacrifices to them. What I've been turning around in my head lately is wondering why and how the black tree stump got there? Also, why exactly was it called ironwood? I mean... I get that it was black, but if iron was brought to Westeros by the first men, were these black trees brought there too when the first men arrived? This tree has to be old enough to be petrified, so that's a good indicator of how old it is.

If the trees belonged to the children of the forest then wouldn't the wood have been called something else? Of course it could easily be called ironwood simply because the wood is petrified.

Here's another question - where are all the black trees? We don't hear about them in the story. I suppose it could possibly be an omitted detail, but then what would have caused the black trees to go extinct?

We still have black trees in Qarth, at the HotU. I find that veeery veeeery interesting. The undying drink the sap of the trees in order to have their crazy hallucinogenic trip fests. And... well... they're undying, so we guess they don't die either. Although it seems like they really wanted Dany for some reason to make their undying magic stronger. The blood sacrifice of a magical being is probably pretty potent.

I'm going speculation wild here, but I kinda like it 'cause one thing leads to another soo... :D

I'm thinking the story of what's going on around these trees (and ravens) may be something like this:

1. First men cross the land bridge from Essos, bringing the black Quartheen trees with them. First men were natural skinchangers to begin with.

2. They start planting trees. CotF, who as Leaf says are not numerous and dwindling, end up looking for ways to prolong their life. They don't want to end up dead like they see from the dead species they see in the earth (they sing the songs of earth, and are able to move it, so it stands to reason they see the ancient remnants of old creatures/civilizations in it)

3. They start hoarding the trees, they use blood magic to take over the trees from their original owners - humans who could skinchange.

4. Big war ensues. Man knows that when they die they pass into these trees, CotF start working blood magic to take over the trees and the ravens that the skinchangers normally pass into when they die. Ravens who were previously white, turn black, trees that were previously black, turn white. Sap that was previously inky blue, turns blood red from the blood magic.

5. Man freaks out, starts to cut down these compromised white trees. They want their second life when they die, they don't want it taken over. Children in turn are cutting down their black trees.

6. Children and men are at war, the children die but just end up taking over more trees when they do. Man dies, ends up stuck in the lands of always winter.

7. Children offer men a "truce", invite them to the gods eye and island. Bunch of Quartheen trees are on island. They tell man they need a truce because a greenseer is needed to operate the weirwood, so CotF lie and say they're in a worse position then they are. Man goes to the island and its a fake pact, ends up committing to the pact in exchange for protecting their lives, having safety from the long night, but the CotF go "MAYHAPS you didn't say second lives!" and screw man over doing what they don't expect. Probably only guaranteeing man a safe 1st life and screwing him over for his second. So we end up with winterfell being built, the "gods" looking out for men, and dead Starks entoombed with iron swords to keep them in their statues so they can't go into the wierwood.

8. "faces are carved into the trees" on the god's eye, which I think is basically that man got shoved into the weirwood based on a trickster's promise. The faces are the people (we see that Theon sees Bran's face in ADWD)

9. Man ends up with no weirwood/ravens to live their second life in and the dead are consigned to the far far north. Man is sworn to build the wall to keep man's magic contained up north and at the disposal of the children's new "home".

10. the white ravens that are supposed to be their natural state are now able to lift the seasons, but most are turned into their smaller, black cousins. The white ones seem to speak more words and are smarter in general (I think this is because they are the skinchanged ravens in their natural state) the black ones are smaller then the white (CotF are smaller) and don't say as many words.

11. then I think there is a bunch of pact 2.0 stuff between the rising power of Valyria - Wildlings get kidnapped from Hardome, CotF and Brandon the Shipwright "save" wildlings in the process founding Braavos and binding the formerly free wildlings turned Valyrian slaves to their will. (valar doheris/valar morghulis) This process binds the Targaryens and their dragons too because "only death can pay for life" and the dragons wanted to die along with their slavers. CotF/Faceless Men don't kill indiscriminately so I think the dragons are working for them too. Part of the pact 2.0 must include a promise of a prince who would bring forth "the dragon": ancestral swords are given away to legitimized bastards, crazy brother Aerion wildfires himself when he has a bastard son. Targaryens burn themselves up for years thinking they are the one promised to be "the dragon". (who is probably Jon in my mind because "the dragon has three heads", considers himself a bastard and Dany keeps repeating "I am the blood of the dragon" not the dragon itself, so I think at some level she knows she's the blood sacrifice to bring "the dragon" back (PtwP), not "the dragon" himself. The dragon and PtwP must be two separate people.

12. Rewind slightly to Aegon's landing: King Harren the black builds Harrenhal with blood magic - the day the last brick is laid the CotF have Aegon invade. The north symbolically kneels to him because it doesn't really matter since they both have the same overlord anyway.

13. Dragons are nixed by the CotF telling the citadel to poison them. The Citadel likes the status quo of no magic so they do it.

14. Aegon the V, kicks off the process of bringing dragons and direwolves back with summerhall. He's blood of the dragon so his life as Aegon V is the sacrifice needed for the 1st dragon to come back. The others with FM blood: jenny of oldstones (Ygritte?), possibly dunk(Brienne?), possibly dunc the small(Jon?), possibly his wife(Arya?) for direwolves. The first round is done.

15. Rheagar born at Aegon's death. Feels connection to Summerhall because he WAS Aegon, unsure if he was "the dragon" still. Mad king burning Rickard and Brandon are direwolf lives 5 and 6.

16. Rheagar dies on the trident, gets reborn into Dany. Dragon life #2. Lyanna dies in childbirth (direwolf life 7) with Jon (THE dragon), gets buried at winterfell without an iron sword on her crypt to keep her in her grave because she's a girl, and because Ned mysteriously demanded the break in tradition. Perhaps at Lyanna's insistence. She gets reborn as Arya.

17. Daenarys symbolically dies in the fire on the pyre. Dragon life #3, the dragons are born. (or maybe Dany still needs to actually die - who knows)

So that's 3 dragon lives paid for with blood of the dragon, and 7 direwolves lives (mother and 6 pups) paid for with FM life. As long as Aegon the V's wife was of First Men descent and ALSO died in Summerhall (Barristan confirms Jenny of Oldstones did in ADWD) then we have the right numbers for BOTH the direwolves and dragons' return.

THE dragon, who is Jon, has 3 heads: human, dragon and direwolf. Dany is "BLOOD OF the dragon" as she was/is the proper blood sacrifice needed to bring the dragons back and the dragon's blood relative.

And we get to now! I know this is all super speculative, for me this is kinda how I see it going in the books.

I'm totally speculating that Aegon the V was married to a wife with FM blood and Dunk the tall and small had FM blood, but it kinda fits the numbers and makes Summerhall make sense. :) There's a lot of text I could point to to support a lot of the claims above (like Aemon wondering if he'll "return" when he dies) but I didn't want to bog down the explanation.

:cheers: